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Estrogen 101 for men: AI`s, SERMs, DHT Derivatives, Low/High symptoms, etc

Vision said:
This is absolutely terrific info right here man absolutely :)
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Thank you for always freely sharing your knowledge and experience with my self and the community. You are by far the best teacher and mentor that I could ever ask for.
 
MJJ said:
I’ve never tried it, but it seems like it’s a lot like primo. What’s your input on it?
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I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about it as Vision and others are here but yes it is a lot like primo but stronger mg per mg. It has a reputation for having a lot of pip but as long as you get it from a good brand then it is very minimal. EP DHB for example has great feedback here in our sub forum.

Check out this write up Vision did on it. EP DHB "1-Test cyp" NEW Lab results & purchase ::HERE::
 
Matt88 said:
I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about it as Vision and others are here but yes it is a lot like primo but stronger mg per mg. It has a reputation for having a lot of pip but as long as you get it from a good brand then it is very minimal. EP DHB for example has great feedback here in our sub forum.

Check out this write up Vision did on it. EP DHB "1-Test cyp" NEW Lab results & purchase ::HERE::
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Thx you for the information and you’re time
 
Matt88 said:
Thank you for always freely sharing your knowledge and experience with my self and the community. You are by far the best teacher and mentor that I could ever ask for.
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Brother, it's members in the community like this and people that we circle ourselves with that we trust with their experiences.
I'm simply passing on the torch from all the brains that I've picked over the years.. and continuously still do to this day.. I'm forever asking questions ;)
 
Solid Info!! I hope everyone reads. Trust me gyno is no fun lol. learning to control e2 is very important.
 
Matt88 said:
Let`s talk about Estrogen. I will call it Estrogen 101. The information below is a combination of things I have learned and things I have researched recently in preperation to write this. I am not a doctor and this is not intended to be medical advice. I intend for this to be public use information so please feel free to share it in any manner you see fit. This is not all inclusive information and many of the things contained here will vary person to person.

There is more than one form of estrogen but for the intent and purpose of this writeup we will stick with E2 (Estradiol). I want this to benefit everyone so I have included the basics and I have also included some cool stuff that perhaps the more experienced person is not aware of as well I don`t count myself as more experienced per say in comparison to many of you but I definitely learned a lot here. Let`s get into it!

Testosterone can be converted into estrogen through a process called aromatization. The enzyme responsible for this conversion is called Aromatase. This enzyme is predominantly found in various tissues throughout the body, including the testes, adipose tissue (fat cells), and the brain.

When testosterone interacts with aromatase, it undergoes a chemical reaction where the aromatase enzyme converts testosterone into estradiol (e2). This conversion occurs via the aromatization process, resulting in the production of estrogen from testosterone.

The amount of aromatase enzyme present in the body can vary greatly among individuals. Factors such as genetics, body fat percentage, age, etc can influence the expression and activity of aromatase. I want to elaborate on estrogen and fat tissue. You may start your anabolic journey at say 20% body fat, At that time you convert a lot of test into estrogen. Overtime you add lean muscle and/or lose body fat and now you are at 12% body fat. You very well may discover that you no longer convert test into estrogen at the same rate. In fact, in many people this can be a drastic difference. I know for me personally when I first started TRT and anabolics I was pretty fat. I had been a pizza loving functional alcoholic for many years. Overtime as I lost fat tissue I started converting less and less test into estrogen. Fast forward to the present and I am now a very low converter.

Let`s discuss an area where a lot of confusion can be had due to conflicting reports and information. The fact is that most people who are giving said information are not wrong per say bc they are speaking from their own personal experience. It is just that we are all SO different in how much aromatase our bodies have and how our bodies respond to these different compounds.

Let`s look at how DHT derivatives can have an estrogen lowering effect in the body. An example of a DHT derivative is Anavar, Proviron, Primo, Masteron, Winstrol, etc. The indirect effect of certain DHT derivatives on estrogen levels is related to their potential interaction with the estrogen receptor. While these compounds primarily bind to androgen receptors, they can also bind to estrogen receptors to some extent. By occupying the estrogen receptors, they may compete with estrogen molecules for these receptor binding sites.

This competition for estrogen receptor binding can lead to a decrease in the overall estrogenic activity in the body. However, it's important to note that the affinity of DHT derivatives for the estrogen receptor is typically lower compared to their affinity for androgen receptors. As a result, their impact on estrogen receptor binding and subsequent estrogen levels may not be as potent as other compounds specifically designed for anti-estrogenic effects such as aromatase inhibitors. The extent of estrogen reduction and the specific effects can vary depending on the compound and individual. It is for that reason that an individual should not ever 100% rely on DHT derivatives for anti estrogen purposes. Always have an Aromatase inhibitor in your tool box bc the last thing you want to happen is needing it right away and not having it.

We know DHT derivatives can have an estrogen lowering effect and now we know why, so how does this transition into how one goes about planning the first time using one of these compounds? We will use Masteron as our example. For most people I would suggest starting out with running your testosterone and Masteron at a 1:1 ratio. A perfect example of this is Euro Pharmacies TRT plus which is a blend of 200mg/200mg of Test/Mast. I would not suggest using an aromatase inhibitor going into running this because you want to see what your estrogen level is at this 1:1 ratio. I will use myself as an example. I am personally abnormal when it comes to this. I am now a very low converter of test to estrogen and I have discovered that I need my testosterone dosage an entire 200mg higher than my masteron dosage. I feel that this is not normal per say when comparing it to others on the forums. A lot of guys can run their DHT derivative higher than their testosterone dosage. This could be due to the fact that they convert much higher than I do or they could simply just not respond the way I do in regards to their estrogen receptors and how the DHT derivative binds to (or the lack thereof) to their estrogen receptors. Some people can also have their estrogen much lower than others without any negative side effects. I believe the majority of this is simply due to genetic disposition.

Aromatase inhibitors, such as Anastrozole (Armidex)), Letrozole (Letro) and Exemestane (Aromasin) are commonly used to block the activity of aromatase. By inhibiting the aromatase enzyme, these drugs can reduce the conversion of testosterone to estrogen and effectively lower estrogen levels in the body. These are the "gold standard" for estrogen management.

Letrozole is a much more potent aromatase inhibitor compared to anastrozole or Exemestane. It effectively reduces estrogen levels by inhibiting a higher percentage of aromatase activity. For that reason, I suggest anyone new to anabolics should avoid Letro entirely until they gain experience and obtain lab work. Its use should only be considered if you are having to take multiple tablets of Exemestane or Anastrozole a week to maintain a normal estrogen range visualized on lab work. If Letro was utilized in place of a typical Anastrozole or Exemestane dosage it would very likely completely crash your estrogen levels for an extended period of time.

Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Raloxifene,Clomiphene citrate (Clomid), etc.

SERMS can be used to help mitigate the effects of estrogen.

Estrogen Receptor Blockade: SERMs can compete with estrogen for binding to estrogen receptors in various tissues, including breast tissue and the hypothalamus. By blocking the estrogen receptor, SERMs can help reduce the estrogenic effects in these tissues. In terms of how these work, an example would be a parking lot of empty parking spots and you place a traffic cone in a parking spot to block a car from being able to pull into the parking spot.

Negative Feedback on Hypothalamus: In the hypothalamus, SERMs can potentially inhibit the negative feedback loop that estrogen exerts on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis. This can result in increased release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), which can stimulate testosterone production and potentially reduce estrogen levels which is why they drugs are used during a PCT (Post Cycle Therapy)

Gynecomastia Management: Gynecomastia, the enlargement of breast tissue in males, can occur due to very high estrogen. The SERM would block estrogen receptors in breast tissue to prevent the gyno from growing and possibly even shrinking it till it`s essentially gone.

It is important to note that different SERMs have different usages and they don`t all behave in the same way.


Low Estrogen Symptoms. This list is not all inclusive but is instead a generalized list. If my estrogen is low, I get all these symptoms and more. You for example may be different.

Sexual Dysfunction: Low estrogen levels can contribute to decreased libido (sex drive) and erectile dysfunction in men.

Mood Changes: Estrogen plays a role in regulating mood, and low levels can be associated with mood swings, irritability, or even depression and anxiety.

Fatigue and Low Energy: Reduced estrogen levels may lead to feelings of fatigue, decreased energy levels, and overall lethargy. I just want to sleep all the time if my estrogen is really low.

Joint and Muscle Discomfort: Estrogen helps maintain joint and bone health. Inadequate estrogen can contribute to joint stiffness, pain, and muscle discomfort.

Cognitive Changes: Estrogen is involved in cognitive function, and low levels may be associated with difficulties in concentration, memory issues, or brain fog. Research shows that estrogen exhibits protective qualities to our brains.

Hot Flashes: Although less common in men than in women, low estrogen levels can sometimes lead to hot flashes characterized by sudden feelings of warmth, sweating, and flushing.


If we are going to discuss low Estrogen symptoms, then we have to mention High estrogen symptoms as well. Again, this list is generalized and not all inclusive.

Gynecomastia: This refers to the development of breast tissue in men, leading to breast enlargement or tenderness. It occurs due to the estrogen's stimulatory effect on breast glandular tissue.

Water Retention and Bloating: High estrogen levels can cause fluid retention and bloating, leading to a puffy or swollen appearance, particularly in the face, hands, or feet.

Mood Changes: Excess estrogen can contribute to mood swings, irritability, anxiety, or even depression in some individuals.

Fatigue and Low Energy: High estrogen levels may result in feelings of fatigue, decreased energy levels, and overall lethargy.

Sexual Dysfunction: Elevated estrogen can interfere with libido, erectile function, and overall sexual performance.

Increased Body Fat: High estrogen levels can contribute to increased body fat, especially in the abdominal area. It can be challenging to lose or maintain weight despite efforts.

Sleep Disturbances: Some men may experience sleep problems such as insomnia or disrupted sleep patterns due to elevated estrogen levels.

Prostate Issues: While the relationship between estrogen and prostate health is complex, high estrogen levels have been associated with prostate-related symptoms such as increased urinary frequency or urgency.


As you can see there are some symptoms with high and low estrogen that are very similar which is why it is important to utilize blood work when appropriate to see what your estrogen level is.


These are a few factors to consider in regards to why I feel estrogen is important at appropriate levels.

Protein Synthesis: Estrogen has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis, which is a key process involved in muscle growth and repair. This suggests that estrogen can have a positive effect on muscle protein accretion and hypertrophy.

Inflammation and Recovery: Estrogen can have anti-inflammatory effects, which can aid in muscle recovery and reduce muscle damage associated with intense exercise. This indirect effect on muscle health and recovery may indirectly support hypertrophy.

GH Secretion: Estrogen can affect the secretion of GH. Research suggests that estrogen may enhance the release of GH from the pituitary gland, leading to increased levels of circulating GH in the body. This interaction occurs through complex mechanisms involving the hypothalamus, which regulates the release of GH-releasing hormone (GHRH) and somatostatin.

GH Signaling: Estrogen can also modulate the signaling pathways involved in GH action. GH exerts its anabolic effects on muscle tissue through activation of the Janus kinase 2 (JAK2) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) pathways. Estrogen can influence the expression and activation of these signaling molecules, potentially affecting the response to GH.

IGF-1 Production: GH stimulates the production of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) in the liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is a key mediator of GH's anabolic effects on muscle tissue. Estrogen may enhance IGF-1 production, thereby potentially amplifying the anabolic signaling cascade initiated by GH.

Muscle Protein Synthesis in regards to GH: GH, in combination with IGF-1, stimulates muscle protein synthesis, promoting muscle growth and repair. Estrogen's interaction with GH can indirectly influence muscle protein synthesis through its effects on GH secretion and signaling.

Estrogen plays a role in Dopamine Synthesis, Release, Sensitivity, Responsiveness and Modulation of the dopamine receptors in the brain.

Serotonin Synthesis and Release: Estrogen has been shown to increase the synthesis and release of serotonin in certain brain regions. It can enhance the activity of tryptophan hydroxylase, an enzyme involved in serotonin synthesis, leading to higher serotonin levels.

I hope you found this information helpful. If you have any comments, questions, corrections etc please feel free to comment them below :)
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Great read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Awesome article, dude! I love how you addressed that some men can convert at a lower rate as their body fat % decreases. This has been a question I've had in the back of my mind since I began using AAS at the beginning of the year.

I am not sure where my BF% was at the beginning, but I had a slightly athletic / dad bod build. I was about 8 months out of the Army and enjoying my freedom (a little too much) drinking way too many beers and staying up too late. So I had a noticable bit of pudge around my belly and midsection. I fucking hated it. When I began my first cycle at 500mg Test E, I needed 10mg Aromasin every pin day.

Now, about eight months after I began, I'm still not sure exactly where my BF% is, but I have well defined, visible abs and veins in my midsection. Very pleased with this! Haha. This has me wondering if (and hoping that I will not) need to use an AI on my next cycle. Of course I understand that only blood work will give me that answer, but I've got my fingers crossed that I'm gonna be good to go.

Thanks as always for the fantastic information, Matt! You're truly one of the best dudes on here and you have personally taken your own time to help me specifically. I can't thank you enough for being such a good dude!
 
Good stuff Matt well done. Like I always say anabloics and AI's are not cookie cutters for everyone. Dosage, gear, AI type and dosage varies for everyone. Blood works and doctors consultation is the best way to determine what is the right amount and gear for you.

For example in over three decades I've had to use AI only twice for a very short period of time for excessively high estrogen showing up on my blood work.

Good job brother.
 
The research phase has begun for an estrogen 102 writeup. Life is super busy right now so I don't want to set a timeline. However what I will say is that it will happen and I plan for this to occur in the not to distant future :)
 
Matt88 said:
The research phase has begun for an estrogen 102 writeup. Life is super busy right now so I don't want to set a timeline. However what I will say is that it will happen and I plan for this to occur in the not to distant future :)
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Looking forward to it.
 
Matt88 said:
The research phase has begun for an estrogen 102 writeup. Life is super busy right now so I don't want to set a timeline. However what I will say is that it will happen and I plan for this to occur in the not to distant future :)
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Can't wait! It's like pouring Heinz Catsup...Anticipation.
 
By the time symptoms are noticed damage can already have been done. For those using Test longer term managing E2 before there are symptomes may be prudent.

Importance of Testosterone and Estrogen in Men - Life Extension

Massachusetts General Hospital consistently ranks as one of the world's top medical facilities. It conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States.
www.lifeextension.com www.lifeextension.com
 
bus bump GIF
 
First off, thank you Matt!

I’m preparing for an upcoming blast in a few weeks. I have adex on deck in case E symptoms arise. I’m wondering a bit about Nolva.

I know the ai’s will do their job once there is a concern but what are your thoughts on running some nolva weekly right out of the gate and throughout the whole process to be proactive.

Then only take the adex if bloodwork suggests it’s necessary. Anyone use nolva on during their blasts? If so, how do you personal approach it?
 
B-Roll81 said:
First off, thank you Matt!

I’m preparing for an upcoming blast in a few weeks. I have adex on deck in case E symptoms arise. I’m wondering a bit about Nolva.

I know the ai’s will do their job once there is a concern but what are your thoughts on running some nolva weekly right out of the gate and throughout the whole process to be proactive.

Then only take the adex if bloodwork suggests it’s necessary. Anyone use nolva on during their blasts? If so, how do you personal approach it?
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Hello sir :) Sorry for the delay. I had to talk to Vision first and check my self on some information before I responded to ensure I was telling you the correct thing. I`m doing low carb this week and the brain fog is real.

I would not suggest you run nolva right out the gate and I will explain why. Anastrozole (Adex) and Tamox (Nolva) are not friends and they do not play well together. Armidex blunts the action of Tamoxifen and makes it not effective. As in rendering tamoxifen useless. Given that you have armidex on hand and may end up using it I would not run nolva along side it. On top of that it`s just complicating something that does not need complicated. It is not in any way needed to run tamoxifen right out the gate and will just cause you possible issues in the ways of extra side effects.

Now with that being said it is a very good idea to have Tamox (Nolva) on hand during your cycle in the event you would have a gyno issue which in and of it`s self is unlikely.
 
B-Roll81 said:
First off, thank you Matt!

I’m preparing for an upcoming blast in a few weeks. I have adex on deck in case E symptoms arise. I’m wondering a bit about Nolva.

I know the ai’s will do their job once there is a concern but what are your thoughts on running some nolva weekly right out of the gate and throughout the whole process to be proactive.

Then only take the adex if bloodwork suggests it’s necessary. Anyone use nolva on during their blasts? If so, how do you personal approach it?
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Additionally: Vision also brought up a great point to me. You can run Tamoxifen (Nolva) along side Exemestane (Aromasin) as these 2 have no effect on each other. So if you did decide to run Tamoxifen you could get Aromasin instead of Armidex for your AI and be good to go.
 
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea and I’ve also read some that Adex can be a problem for lipids. It seems aromasin is the preferred of the 2.

What I’m getting at with all of this is since I’m going to be running gear long-term between blast and cruise I’m just trying to learn about smart protocols. So for testicular size and function I’m leaning toward 250-500 iu HCG 2x per week. I’ll get some aromasin ordered in case I need it.

I haven’t made any final decisions and will not begin my next cycle until I do. My bloodwork coming up will help determine the start and future bloods will tell the story for me.

One last question…I’ve seen a few guys that run HCG and rFSH together to maintain size and function. Any experience with this? I haven’t noticed any of our sponsors yet that carry the rFSH.

I prefer the least complicated method possible, but also just trying to make a decision.
 
B-Roll81 said:
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea and I’ve also read some that Adex can be a problem for lipids. It seems aromasin is the preferred of the 2.

What I’m getting at with all of this is since I’m going to be running gear long-term between blast and cruise I’m just trying to learn about smart protocols. So for testicular size and function I’m leaning toward 250-500 iu HCG 2x per week. I’ll get some aromasin ordered in case I need it.

I haven’t made any final decisions and will not begin my next cycle until I do. My bloodwork coming up will help determine the start and future bloods will tell the story for me.

One last question…I’ve seen a few guys that run HCG and rFSH together to maintain size and function. Any experience with this? I haven’t noticed any of our sponsors yet that carry the rFSH.

I prefer the least complicated method possible, but also just trying to make a decision.
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You're absolutely doing the right thing by reading and researching. You could just be jumping head first without even knowing how deep the pool is but you're not. Your scoping it all out and playing it smart. Much respect for that sir 🙏

I believe that you're making the right call on opting for some aromasin (Exemestane). You are spot on.....It doesn't have that harsh effect on lipids that armidex does. If you end up being someone like my self that aromatizes very slowly/very little just be careful with aromasin as it can lower your estrogen for much much longer than you intend for it to. This is a rare thing though but for those of us that are low aromatizers it's a possibility. You're doing the right thing though and getting lab work so you will be absolutely fine!

Once you get going with this thing or even before.....anytime really feel free to reach out to me. I'd be happy to help you If I don't know the answer I'll do what I did earlier and ask Vision haha. I also brain storm with RDM as well as others. This is a great community packed full of very knowledgeable people as I'm sure you know.

As for rFSH I have absolutely zero experience or even knowledge about it so I'm unfortunately not able to help you with that. Perhaps make a post in the main forum and see if anyone has any input.

As for HCG: I love hcg! A lot of guys don't bc it can be a big estrogen making mess but me being a low converter it's a big help. The reason I started using it though is for the very thing you've learned through your research. Testicle size. Mine had shrank up pretty small but they slowly grew back to their normal size thanks to hcg. I run it all the time now. My dosages vary but I run anywhere from 750iu to 1500iu a wk. I definitely recommend NOT running over 1k iu though unless you're a low estrogen converter like my self. My wife likes my testicles to be their normal size so that's why I got on it and stay on it. My libido is higher when I'm on it as well.

Apologies for my rambling. Hopefully that was of some help.
 
Matt88 said:
You're absolutely doing the right thing by reading and researching. You could just be jumping head first without even knowing how deep the pool is but you're not. Your scoping it all out and playing it smart. Much respect for that sir 🙏

I believe that you're making the right call on opting for some aromasin (Exemestane). You are spot on.....It doesn't have that harsh effect on lipids that armidex does. If you end up being someone like my self that aromatizes very slowly/very little just be careful with aromasin as it can lower your estrogen for much much longer than you intend for it to. This is a rare thing though but for those of us that are low aromatizers it's a possibility. You're doing the right thing though and getting lab work so you will be absolutely fine!

Once you get going with this thing or even before.....anytime really feel free to reach out to me. I'd be happy to help you If I don't know the answer I'll do what I did earlier and ask Vision haha. I also brain storm with RDM as well as others. This is a great community packed full of very knowledgeable people as I'm sure you know.

As for rFSH I have absolutely zero experience or even knowledge about it so I'm unfortunately not able to help you with that. Perhaps make a post in the main forum and see if anyone has any input.

As for HCG: I love hcg! A lot of guys don't bc it can be a big estrogen making mess but me being a low converter it's a big help. The reason I started using it though is for the very thing you've learned through your research. Testicle size. Mine had shrank up pretty small but they slowly grew back to their normal size thanks to hcg. I run it all the time now. My dosages vary but I run anywhere from 750iu to 1500iu a wk. I definitely recommend NOT running over 1k iu though unless you're a low estrogen converter like my self. My wife likes my testicles to be their normal size so that's why I got on it and stay on it. My libido is higher when I'm on it as well.

Apologies for my rambling. Hopefully that was of some help.
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You’re the man! No ramble at all. This is extremely helpful and right on what I was looking to discuss.

I’ll definitely take you up on kicking around ideas on all the many interesting topics that can improve our quality of life.

I’ve already confirmed with prior experience that I too convert E very minimal but I’ll be using this protocol with HCG and Aromasin wisely driven by bloodwork numbers and slowly introducing these to make the small adjustments necessary to make the effort to balance things instead of waiting until something RED LINES and I have to take emergency actions.

Good stuff! Appreciate it Matt! 👊💪
 
Matt88 said:
I know for me personally when I first started TRT and anabolics I was pretty fat. I had been a pizza loving functional alcoholic for many years.
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A bit late to this post but a good reminder as I'm dealing with sorting out some things, and I was definetly this guy Jan 2023 lol. I've had my time all out in the gym with anabolics in my 30s but kids, injuries and stress let the excuses pile high until the end of 2022. Thanks for the info, and this site has been great in general to get me back up to speed.
 
nightwing said:
A bit late to this post but a good reminder as I'm dealing with sorting out some things, and I was definetly this guy Jan 2023 lol. I've had my time all out in the gym with anabolics in my 30s but kids, injuries and stress let the excuses pile high until the end of 2022. Thanks for the info, and this site has been great in general to get me back up to speed.
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Congratulations sir on getting back on the gym/fitness grind! It's not easy. If it was easy everyone you pass in the streets would have Abs and be jacked. It not being also makes it that much more satisfying and that much more meaningful. Keep at it 💪
 

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