Bible Thread

[bacon7889]

God's "character" in the Old Testament? You have read it right? I have cover to cover numerous times. Jealousy, genocide, rape, slavery, deprivation of women, incest, homophobic, vengeful and that's just to name a few. lol

Read the whole bible like 3 or 4 times. Scripture and proof god had anything to do with rape. I must have missed that

 

[Meetketchup]

Read the whole bible like 3 or 4 times. Scripture and proof god had anything to do with rape. I must have missed that

Yeah, you did, but even so...you're cool with all the other stuff? Do you share the same beliefs? I don't think so. That is my point. I'm sure you're a good guy.

 

[bacon7889]

Yeah, you did, but even so...you're cool with all the other stuff? Do you share the same beliefs? I don't think so. That is my point. I'm sure you're a good guy.

Completely not cool with that stuff. I've read where he was against all of that kind of stuff. Pretty crazy stuff. If you see it that way I understand you being an atheist for sure. I just see it a totally different way.

 

[heavyiron]

Not trolling and sincere with my question. What does that actually mean? My identity in Christ?

Identity is how God sees us. You are either dead in your sins or alive to God. Some think our identity (how God sees us) is the ultimate reality. The main verse that explains it in the simplest way and concisely is below; (HF03 Posted this also)

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When a person believes in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for our sins we are given a new identity. Go sees us as utterly holy, not because of anything we have done but because Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law perfectly. However, believers will be judged for reward or loss of reward by our earthly actions after salvation.

I personally think identity is one of the most important doctrines for believers. Paul spends a lot of his time explaining identity in various letters he wrote to various churches.

 

[heavyiron]

Where in the text is the origin of the red heifer? Curious.

Numbers chapter 19

 

[heavyiron]

The Old Testament Yahweh kinda seemed like he despised gentiles….

Also, Moses convinced him after he reneged on the promised land… that if he didn’t lead them out of the desert and into Israel the pharaohs of Egypt would see him as a weak and unable god… Jesus had no ego problem….

I’m just saying… how do we reconcile some of the things Jesus says in the New Testament about the god of this world and some of the actions of the god of the Old Testament?

Jesus doesn’t seem to operate on the same level as Yahweh of the Old Testament…

just find the argument to be interesting… not sure if it holds water but there are some points that stick, maybe.

Many Christians have no issue saying that Jesus is God, but I would take it a step further.

Yeshua (Jesus) is YHWH (Yahweh).

Want to dip your toes in on this doctrine?

 

[Glycomann]

That was not at all what I was asking. I love you D but that sounded like Jordan Peterson word salad on why you're a Christian I was asking @HFO3 for his reasoning on that specific statement. Genuinely curious.

Since you posted that though, let's take a random quote such as “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!” Psalm 137:9

How do you square that round hole from your happy interpretation above. Are we just cherry picking the good stuff while leaving out 1/2 the barbaric/tribal nonsense? If so, I will stop posting in this thread. Was just curious as to the identity through Christ statement made.

This refers back to the Babylonian exile. This is probably similar to what you might say if your tribes were captured, enslaved and abused for 70 years. It is a statement of how happy would the captives be to take revenge. This was around 500 B.C. I believe it was the exile of the two remaining southern Hebrew tribes that had fallen away from the Law (the First Covenant) and paid for it by exile in Babylon before returning to Judah. The wishes expressed in the verse are that of a peoples that had fallen from the Law just before they broke their exile and returned to their homeland and obeiance of the Law. You really have to know the history before picking out a verse.

 

[Glycomann]

Many Christians have no issue saying that Jesus is God, but I would take it a step further.

Yeshua (Jesus) is YHWH (Yahweh).

Want to dip your toes in on this doctrine?

The Council of Nicaea is where the relationship was made through debate over the early doctrinal text. To to the Nicaean Creed. It is reflected there.

 

[Meetketchup]

You really have to know the history before picking out a verse.

After a respectful response you just had to throw in a dig at the end. lol

I'm sorry, from now on I will take an hour out of my day to cite a dozen ones just like it to prove my knowledge/context on the subject. And for fun, I have Doctorate in History so I'm not too bad at researching and making sure I know what I'm talking about before citing or quoting something.

 

[Glycomann]

After a respectful response you just had to throw in a dig at the end. lol

I'm sorry, from now on I will take an hour out of my day to cite a dozen ones just like it to prove my knowledge/context on the subject. And for fun, I have Doctorate in History so I'm not too bad at researching and making sure I know what I'm talking about before citing or quoting something.

I'm not sure you did. You were using the verse to trap another member to justify the lament in the verse. If you knew the context you would have been less likely to use that verse for that goal.

 

[Glycomann]

After a respectful response you just had to throw in a dig at the end. lol

I'm sorry, from now on I will take an hour out of my day to cite a dozen ones just like it to prove my knowledge/context on the subject. And for fun, I have Doctorate in History so I'm not too bad at researching and making sure I know what I'm talking about before citing or quoting something.

I don't care if you do. Actually I hope you do. Deeper, better understanding is always an improvement. The close to truth the better we live over time. The context and the history means something. I am no priest or rabbi but I try to understand the context and rarely caste it about.

 

[heavyiron]

The Council of Nicaea is where the relationship was made through debate over the early doctrinal text. To to the Nicaean Creed. It is reflected there.

I appreciate the creeds and the early church fathers, and I am familiar with them, but I put more weight on the scriptural text itself. I was reading Jerome last night where he believes Yeshua is YHWH. It's a topic I have dug deep into. Understanding who God is has fascinated me for decades. Found some amazing gems along the way.

 

[heavyiron]

I haven't had a chance to go through this entire thread but wanted to throw this out there. Research "right division of the Bible" either Google or YouTube. You'll see a different way of interpretation of the KJ Bible. It's kinda interesting and some of it seems to make sense.

Great way to understand the differences. Probably my fav hermeneutic brother.

 

[Glycomann]

I appreciate the creeds and the early church fathers, and I am familiar with them, but I put more weight on the scriptural text itself. I was reading Jerome last night where he believes Yeshua is YHWH. It's a topic I have dug deep into. Understanding who God is has fascinated me for decades. Found some amazing gems along the way.

I know very little of Saint Jerome. You're way ahead of me.

 

[HFO4]

Isaiah 43
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”


John 14
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truthand the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10 ;Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.11;Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12;Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


@Milford King
It’s entirely normal to not understand Jesus and the Father are the same yet alive at the same time. Even the disciples needed understanding for this yet they saw Him face to face, hears His words from His mouth to their ears

The Holy Spirit can give you revelation knowledge and understanding to your questions. Maybe these couple of examples of OT and NT help you understand

Scripture proves itself over and over that Gods character not only never changes but unlike our own character that changes over time, Gods doesn’t not, He is the same yesterday today and forever.

 

[Milford King]

Isaiah 43
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”


John 14
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truthand the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10 ;Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.11;Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12;Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


@Milford King
It’s entirely normal to not understand Jesus and the Father are the same yet alive at the same time. Even the disciples needed understanding for this yet they saw Him face to face, hears His words from His mouth to their ears

The Holy Spirit can give you revelation knowledge and understanding to your questions. Maybe these couple of examples of OT and NT help you understand

Scripture proves itself over and over that Gods character not only never changes but unlike our own character that changes over time, Gods doesn’t not, He is the same yesterday today and forever.

Nah man, I understand the holy trinity… I was making the argument that Jesus is God but not the god of the Torah nor the Quran. The one true God, sent himself in human form, to show us the false gods or even possibly the devil we were worshipping.

That’s the gist of some of the stuff I’ve been reading up on…

Nvmd; I just read your last paragraph. Lol

Yeah brother. Thanks!

 

[Milford King]

Many Christians have no issue saying that Jesus is God, but I would take it a step further.

Yeshua (Jesus) is YHWH (Yahweh).

Want to dip your toes in on this doctrine?

Yes

 

[Milford King]

Scripture proves itself over and over that Gods character not only never changes but unlike our own character that changes over time, Gods doesn’t not, He is the same yesterday today and forever.

It’s more of the point that meetketchup has been trying to make in that YHWH (the God of the Jews’) of the Old Testament seems vastly different in character than Jesus. I mean, so different the rank and file Jews wanted to kill him and the polytheistic gentiles wanted to follow him…

It’s true, it’s very difficult to reconcile YHWH in the Old Testament to Jesus of the New Testament within the realm of His unwavering character…

I’m not trying to offend. I’m a believer in the one point of creation (creator force) and Jesus being His (for lack of a better term) avatar to bring his message to the masses without scaring us to death (given the unsettling depictions of biblically accurate angels I imagine God in any form that is not human would probably scare a lot of people back then and even today.

It’s just an interesting concept.

I can’t remember where I heard this next quote but it resonated with me…. “If you haven’t been angry with God or you haven’t at some point questioned God … can you say that you are a true believer” … or something to that effect.

I pray to God (knowingly more often when I’m begging for my daughter/son wifes health). I suppose I should pray more for His revelation to me and show more gratitude for the blessings and the hardships of my life.

By the way…. The biggest hurdle for Christian’s trying to convince atheist that God exists…. Is the Old Testament. It’s literally every argument I ever hear from my atheist friends… we as Christian’s should probably consider how to bridge that gap.

 

[Meetketchup]

It’s more of the point that meetketchup has been trying to make in that YHWH (the God of the Jews’) of the Old Testament seems vastly different in character than Jesus. I mean, so different the rank and file Jews wanted to kill him and the polytheistic gentiles wanted to follow him…

It’s true, it’s very difficult to reconcile YHWH in the Old Testament to Jesus of the New Testament within the realm of His unwavering character…

By the way…. The biggest hurdle for Christian’s trying to convince atheist that God exists…. Is the Old Testament. It’s literally every argument I ever hear from my atheist friends… we as Christian’s should probably consider how to bridge that gap.

Simply put Yahweh was a monster. There is no interpretation to the contrary even with the most generous allowance of argument. We recoil with disgust of the likes of Stalin, Mao and Hitler when "if" the Bible is true, God is worse. Just read the book at what he supposedly did, believes and orders. NONE of you get your morals or ethics from Yahweh.

Someone above posted and proud to say his character never changes. Let me ask a rhetorical question. If God came to you and told you to sacrifice your son, whether he was just testing your faith or not, would you tell him to go f himself? I certainly would.

New Testament: Jesus in most cases is portrayed as the complete opposite, although slavery was just fine, wanted people to abandon their families and follow him (Have no thought for the morrow), etc. Regardless, he was portrayed to have many great traits. No arguing that. Many, many GOOD things can be learned from the actions of Jesus. Why can't we leave it at that? Live your life like Jesus. BUT that in no way makes the Old or New Testament truth. There is no evidence for it aside from personal anecdote from contributors over decades that in many cases contradict themselves.

We can take many of the writings as great ways to live and treat others, disregard the barbaric nonsense, while acknowledging none of it is true. There is just no evidence for it. No more or less than the 3,000 plus other God's created by man.

 

[Milford King]

. If God came to you and told you to sacrifice your son, whether he was just testing your faith or not, would you tell him to go f himself? I certainly would.

Definitely would fail that test. I admit. There were many gods in the past of which the followers willingly did sacrifice children to.. so in this story I could make the argument that this was so common place that Abraham, while saddened, wouldn’t quite see it the way we do today. Meaning, God would be more justified in using that approach to get through to people to stop killing kids for rain or whatever

New Testament: Jesus in most cases is portrayed as the complete opposite, although slavery was just fine, wanted people to abandon their families and follow him (Have no thought for the morrow),

Jesus never said slavery was fine, it was simply a thing that has existed within human civilization (and pre civilization) that He tried to make better for everyone and I could argue that it was in fact Jesus which led to the eventual war on slavery across the western world (I know modern slavery is still thriving but you know what I’m saying)

There is no evidence for it aside from personal anecdote from contributors over decades that in many cases contradict themselves.

Is argue that there are many historical facts documented in the old testament but … that doesn’t necessarily make it all true so I get your point.

We can take many of the writings as great ways to live and treat others, disregard the barbaric nonsense, while acknowledging none of it is true. There is just no evidence for it. No more or less than the 3,000 plus other God's created by man.

I don’t know man, if I spent enough time I could probably make an argument that there is more proof that Jesus existed and was who He said He was than there was of Thor or Baal or the other gods… but I personally think those other gods do exist… they just aren’t gods. The people of the past experienced the spiritual realm/ war that we are just too far removed from that nature to believe.

 

[Meetketchup]

@Milford King Dude, I love your responses and the respectful conversation. Truly appreciate.

One thing I will say about Jesus and slavery is that demanding to treat your slaves well is much different than saying it is immoral and should be abolished. They are still slaves and owned by someone else. I find it a stretch to use the better treatment of slaves as a contributor to a future war on slavery. If he was against the idea of slavery, why would he not simply state it? Seems like a pretty big deal. There is no substantial evidence of him ever saying so. Was he afraid to? I doubt it, he was supposedly the son of God.

 

[Milford King]

@Milford King Dude, I love your responses and the respectful conversation. Truly appreciate.

One thing I will say about Jesus and slavery is that demanding to treat your slaves well is much different than saying it is immoral and should be abolished. They are still slaves and owned by someone else. I find it a stretch to use the better treatment of slaves as a contributor to a future war on slavery. If he was against the idea of slavery, why would he not simply state it? Seems like a pretty big deal. There is no substantial evidence of him ever saying so. Was he afraid to? I doubt it, he was supposedly the son of God.

No problem bro…

For me I liken the conflict of interest regarding slavery in the emerging Christian realm to the same way Christian’s tried to make it easier for pagans to convert without subjugation from their own cultures. Much like they did with the timing of most of our holidays coinciding with pagan traditions and even being promoted in the pagan style (Easter bunny/colored eggs obviously a celebration of the god of fertility) and the big one, being around the winter solstice celebrating the death, resurrection and victory of the sun/son.

A cultural shock like ending slavery 2000 years ago would not have worked out well. Ending slavery would have probably caused much more suffering for slaves and disrupted the economy to the point of setting progress back by centuries.

Not defending slavery but i imagine ending it would have had more negative consequences than positive in the BC/early AD world.

 

[heavyiron]

Yes

Your assignment is to read Isaiah 6:1-10 and ask who the Lord in this passage is. Read in any translation but read it in the NKJV also. (Probably my fav chapter in the entire Bible)

Next read Isaiah 53 and identify who is being spoken of. Put your answers here when you have time and then we will discuss.

 

[heavyiron]

@Meetketchup and @Milford King I love this conversation. I wish we could meet, eat a steak dinner and discuss for a few hours. Excellent questions and observations.

 

[heavyiron]

Who is this One they call the LORD?

Isaiah 6​

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The Lord of hosts."
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar.
7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; Your iniquity is taken away, And your sin purged."
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'
10 "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."

 

[Meetketchup]

@Meetketchup and @Milford King I love this conversation. I wish we could meet, eat a steak dinner and discuss for a few hours. Excellent questions and observations.

There is nothing better than a sitting around of table of good food having respectful intellectual conversations of varying viewpoints. Every time I do that, I learn something and better for it.

 

[Milford King]

Your assignment is to read Isaiah 6:1-10 and ask who the Lord in this passage is. Read in any translation but read it in the NKJV also. (Probably my fav chapter in the entire Bible)

So, In summary Isaiah has a vision or possibly an experience where he is in the presence of God. He sees these crazy looking winged creatures singing Gods praises and feels like he isn’t good enough to be in that moment. The seraphim creatures burn his lips with hot coals and tell him that his sin is atoned for. Then Isaiah accepts Gods challenge of preaching to his people but with what seems to be a foreshadowing that his people won’t understand who or what God is….

Who do I think God is in this passage? Seems like a good guy, possibly Jesus. Definitely an authority figure… sitting on a throne like a ruler or king.

Next read Isaiah 53 and identify who is being spoken of. Put your answers here when you have time and then we will discuss.

This passage clearly depicts Jesus and his future act of bearing the burden of sin for mankind.

I’m guessing this isn’t well received with certain folks. Lol

 

[heavyiron]

So, In summary Isaiah has a vision or possibly an experience where he is in the presence of God. He sees these crazy looking winged creatures singing Gods praises and feels like he isn’t good enough to be in that moment. The seraphim creatures burn his lips with hot coals and tell him that his sin is atoned for. Then Isaiah accepts Gods challenge of preaching to his people but with what seems to be a foreshadowing that his people won’t understand who or what God is….

Who do I think God is in this passage? Seems like a good guy, possibly Jesus. Definitely an authority figure… sitting on a throne like a ruler or king.


This passage clearly depicts Jesus and his future act of bearing the burden of sin for mankind.

I’m guessing this isn’t well received with certain folks. Lol

In the NKJV they will indicate when its YHWH by capitalizing the letters LORD.

Look at verse 1 in Is 53. In the original language Lord there is Adonai which means Lord or master. It's a title of respect that the Jews would often use because the name YHWH was considered so sacred that they would often times use a different word to denote Yahweh. Modern Jews to this day will do something similar. Often, they will write G-d instead of God. It's a combination of respect but also, they don't want to take the Lord's name in vain. In verse 3 LORD is all caps. This is for sure YHWH. YHWH again in verse 5. Isaiah switches back to Adonai in verse 8. We can conclusively say that this is YHWH and Adonia in Isaiah 6 is another word or title for YHWH. Isaiah 6 is the only place I know of where YHWH's glory is mentioned by the prophet Isaiah. One of YHWH's attributes is His utter holiness. Holy means set apart. YHWH is a holy King, and you can make a strong case that He is the creator.

Isaiah 53 is about The Messiah. This suffering servant who will come and die for our sins. Isaiah was written around 700 BC. It's a prophesy about Yeshua (Jesus).

Compare Is 53:1 and Is 6:10

Is 53:1
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Is 6:10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah was commanded to tell the people about Messiah, but YHWH tells him they won't listen. This is a pretty common theme in scripture. Obviously, Yeshua was rejected by the religious leaders of His day. He is still rejected today.

If this all makes sense, I have one more passage to look at.

Thoughts?

 

[Milford King]

In the NKJV they will indicate when its YHWH by capitalizing the letters LORD.

Look at verse 1 in Is 53. In the original language Lord there is Adonai which means Lord or master. It's a title of respect that the Jews would often use because the name YHWH was considered so sacred that they would often times use a different word to denote Yahweh. Modern Jews to this day will do something similar. Often, they will write G-d instead of God. It's a combination of respect but also, they don't want to take the Lord's name in vain. In verse 3 LORD is all caps. This is for sure YHWH. YHWH again in verse 5. Isaiah switches back to Adonai in verse 8. We can conclusively say that this is YHWH and Adonia in Isaiah 6 is another word or title for YHWH. Isaiah 6 is the only place I know of where YHWH's glory is mentioned by the prophet Isaiah. One of YHWH's attributes is His utter holiness. Holy means set apart. YHWH is a holy King, and you can make a strong case that He is the creator.

Isaiah 53 is about The Messiah. This suffering servant who will come and die for our sins. Isaiah was written around 700 BC. It's a prophesy about Yeshua (Jesus).

Compare Is 53:1 and Is 6:10

Is 53:1
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Is 6:10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah was commanded to tell the people about Messiah, but YHWH tells him they won't listen. This is a pretty common theme in scripture. Obviously, Yeshua was rejected by the religious leaders of His day. He is still rejected today.

If this all makes sense, I have one more passage to look at.

Thoughts?

Yep, makes sense to me as far as proving Jesus was/is a prophesy from the God of the Old Testament. I already believed that Jesus was foretold in the Old Testament and that Jesus was sent by God and is God.

However, there still exists a discrepancy between the overall message and characteristics between the Old Testament God and the New Testament Jesus. This is the crux of the argument the non believers use (Leviticus is also a common go to for them). A friend of mine explained this as society being so evil that Gods wrath was justified and fully deserved. And that God isn’t who we want Him to be, God is God and does what God wants to.

Anywho, what’s the other passage you want me to look at?

Thanks boss.

 

[Meetketchup]

@heavyiron May I ask if you were raised in a religious household?