Bible Thread

[Multislacking]

Thank you, for advice I do think something needs tried even if for just a start reading a bible for a little bit a day. Dip my toes in.


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Copied from another post, in case it helps:

New King James version is probably going to be the most accurate and easiest to understand. NIV and some of the others are known for mutilating some passages (and flat out adding/subtracting other things). Here's a link to a place that will email you a daily reading plan that gets you through the bible in one year (just make sure to pick the NKJV):
Read the Bible in a Year through E-mail

 

[heavyiron]

I'm also a big fan of NKJV mostly because it has textual criticism tools. Very easy to see if there are variations.

 

[Learningtopump]

Not trying to push you any way. This might or might not affect you at all. But, an experiment that I know has worked for others:

Imagine you are sitting in a chair talking with Jesus. What would you say if he were right in front of you? Try this maybe once a day for a week and see where things go.

I know if he were in front of me for a Q&A, my first question would be why if you grand old pop had foreknowledge of everything that will happen until the end of time why did he create pain, suffering, illness, abuse, mental illness, and before you answer thats the devils doing, God created him as well, so why?
Would it not take being a pompous ass for an omnipotent being to create a scenario where he controls every aspect of it, yet makes it so that its an impossible game to win.
Why does he take time out to help someone find their lost keys or do well in a sporting event, but not stop an abusive father or husband from beating, raping and killing innocent women and children?
Why did your dad kill everyone on the planet, send bears to kill kids that made fun of a bald guy, making people happy that bash babies off the rocks.
And what pronouns do you guys use, I understand that bing the trinity and all - the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit, kinda makes you they/them, no?
These are just a few starter/warm-up questions, I'd have a lot more if he took the time to answer.

 

[Milford King]

Thank you, for advice I do think something needs tried even if for just a start reading a bible for a little bit a day. Dip my toes in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah yes, “for he who dippeth thyne toes inith shall haveth damp socks” - Amish proverb

 

[Milford King]

I know if he were in front of me for a Q&A, my first question would be why if you grand old pop had foreknowledge of everything that will happen until the end of time why did he create pain, suffering, illness, abuse, mental illness, and before you answer thats the devils doing, God created him as well, so why?
Would it not take being a pompous ass for an omnipotent being to create a scenario where he controls every aspect of it, yet makes it so that its an impossible game to win.
Why does he take time out to help someone find their lost keys or do well in a sporting event, but not stop an abusive father or husband from beating, raping and killing innocent women and children?
Why did your dad kill everyone on the planet, send bears to kill kids that made fun of a bald guy, making people happy that bash babies off the rocks.
And what pronouns do you guys use, I understand that bing the trinity and all - the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit, kinda makes you they/them, no?
These are just a few starter/warm-up questions, I'd have a lot more if he took the time to answer.

Oh yeah, I forgot about us bald guys being his fave. Next time that guy at work asks me if I use mop n glow I’m gonna ask him how well he thinks he’d do against a few angry bears. Thanks for the reminder.

#baldisbetter

 

[Multislacking]

2 Kings 2
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”

"Youths"...not little kids. More like wannabe gangbangers from the inner city. #baldlivesmatter

 

[Ogre]

I know if he were in front of me for a Q&A, my first question would be why if you grand old pop had foreknowledge of everything that will happen until the end of time why did he create pain, suffering, illness, abuse, mental illness, and before you answer thats the devils doing, God created him as well, so why?
Would it not take being a pompous ass for an omnipotent being to create a scenario where he controls every aspect of it, yet makes it so that its an impossible game to win.
Why does he take time out to help someone find their lost keys or do well in a sporting event, but not stop an abusive father or husband from beating, raping and killing innocent women and children?
Why did your dad kill everyone on the planet, send bears to kill kids that made fun of a bald guy, making people happy that bash babies off the rocks.
And what pronouns do you guys use, I understand that bing the trinity and all - the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit, kinda makes you they/them, no?
These are just a few starter/warm-up questions, I'd have a lot more if he took the time to answer.

A truly classic theological question with many, many, many answers from those who study such things over the decades:

"Why does God allow suffering?"

I could spend pages and pages and pages (and pages, really) trying to explain and give you evidence and thoughts from many people smarter than me who have studied this for years. Mostly what I've learned is, "No one really has any idea why." I mean, the short answer is "free will," but the contrary to that is, "why allow that if it leads to evil?" So I'm sticking with my original answer, "No one has any damn idea." I imagine that being #1 on the first page of FAQs for everyone in the afterlife.

 

[heavyiron]

I know if he were in front of me for a Q&A, my first question would be why if you grand old pop had foreknowledge of everything that will happen until the end of time why did he create pain, suffering, illness, abuse, mental illness, and before you answer thats the devils doing, God created him as well, so why?
Would it not take being a pompous ass for an omnipotent being to create a scenario where he controls every aspect of it, yet makes it so that its an impossible game to win.
Why does he take time out to help someone find their lost keys or do well in a sporting event, but not stop an abusive father or husband from beating, raping and killing innocent women and children?
Why did your dad kill everyone on the planet, send bears to kill kids that made fun of a bald guy, making people happy that bash babies off the rocks.
And what pronouns do you guys use, I understand that bing the trinity and all - the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit, kinda makes you they/them, no?
These are just a few starter/warm-up questions, I'd have a lot more if he took the time to answer.

You assume He had foreknowledge of everything.

 

[Learningtopump]

You assume He had foreknowledge of everything.

Are you saying he doesn't? My years of catholic upbring has taught me differently. Are you saying he is not omniscient?

A truly classic theological question with many, many, many answers from those who study such things over the decades:

"Why does God allow suffering?"

I could spend pages and pages and pages (and pages, really) trying to explain and give you evidence and thoughts from many people smarter than me who have studied this for years. Mostly what I've learned is, "No one really has any idea why." I mean, the short answer is "free will," but the contrary to that is, "why allow that if it leads to evil?" So I'm sticking with my original answer, "No one has any damn idea." I imagine that being #1 on the first page of FAQs for everyone in the afterlife.

I'm not buying it. First you say you can go on and on for pages explaining why, then say no one really knows. So......

 

[Learningtopump]

2 Kings 2
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”

"Youths"...not little kids. More like wannabe gangbangers from the inner city. #baldlivesmatter

I didn't say little kids, but that begs the question; at what age is it appropriate - in your mind since you raised the point - for God to kill someone for mocking someone else?

 

[Ogre]

Are you saying he doesn't? My years of catholic upbring has taught me differently. Are you saying he is not omniscient?

I'm not buying it. First you say you can go on and on for pages explaining why, then say no one really knows. So......

Sorry that wasn't clear. I meant to say that I could go on for a very long time telling you about what other people have said and theorized about it. Because they're theologians and philosophers, they do not agree with one another. So my personal conclusion is that no one really knows and it's beyond our human comprehension.

 

[heavyiron]

Are you saying he doesn't? My years of catholic upbring has taught me differently. Are you saying he is not omniscient?

God knows everything that is knowable but the future does not exist.

Were you taught under only Catholic doctrine or were there other denominations that formed your concept of God?

 

[Multislacking]

I didn't say little kids, but that begs the question; at what age is it appropriate - in your mind since you raised the point - for God to kill someone for mocking someone else?

I think the real issue is we got the pg version of the story. Just my opinion. If you were in the city and a gang of thugs started talking shit to you and you could see they were armed and threatening, what level of defense would you take? If they were 21? 20? 18? 15? I mean, you see where this is going. Any way about it, they were old enough to be running in a group and preying on the elderly. I'll let you do the math.

Who knows.... Detroit, NY, LA might be better off with a few she bears running wild.

 

[heavyiron]

What if our concept of God is incorrect? What if Pagan Greek philosophy has influenced our understanding of God? Who was Plato and Aristotle and what did they posit about God and time?

Imagine rejecting God because you created a false construct of Him and then rejected that false construct?

 

[Milford King]

David Woods testimonial ^ it’s pretty powerful. This guy killed his own father with a hammer if I remember it correctly.

I don’t wanna turn this thread into what usually happens but for all the atheist and semi-agnostic and non believers who push back on theology and God and those who follow .... why do you believe the way you believe. You’re always asking us to reason our faith but you never tell us what you believe. Never explain your rationale when it comes to life and your faithfulness to your belief system.

For me, there’s many. But one that stands out is morality. I do not believe morality is a trait that could spawn through the evolutionary process. In fact, I think morality is a hinderance to everything evolution is. There is approximately zero morality in the animal kingdom and zero morality without God, at least according to me and my experiences.

 

[Learningtopump]

What if our concept of God is incorrect? What if Pagan Greek philosophy has influenced our understanding of God? Who was Plato and Aristotle and what did they posit about God and time?

Imagine rejecting God because you created a false construct of Him and then rejected that false construct?

Interesting question, so what of the opposite? What if all christians have been believing in a deity that never existed because those against the "gods" of the time needed to combat the beliefs in them and created a mythical being called Jesus? There is no proof of any kind proving any actual deities so everyone could be wrong.
Why spend so much time over the minutia and not instead focus on being a better person so that IF there is a deity that controls access to an amazing afterlife, it can look at your life and say that you were a good person and just because you didn't believe in something mythical, because I provided no actual proof, you are permitted.
Why spend so much time and energy hating one group over another and using a book of fables that were written centuries ago by people reminiscing over tales handed down to them for over 200 years?
There's no way even in today's age to have a message delivered through more than 3 people without it turning into a death threat or a resignation letter for a job, so why put so much blind faith in a book of tales written on cloth and translated from forgotten languages into seldom used of understood languages, then into yet another language that has had the meanings of words morph and change over generations and kingdoms with dozens of variations depending on your sect? It makes no sense to me how people today use the bible as a biases for hate and segregation of peoples all the while ignoring all the other parts that they have negotiated away because it doesn't fit within their framework of a normal life. ie... no one - of any sound mind- is advocating to bring back stoning of women who cheat, selling off their children for oxen, and then reducing the price of the females if they had been raped and no longer have their virginity. No one is shunned for wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shellfish or playing with pigskin, can anyone say chicharrones? So why do we allow some other things to remain and flourish like the horribly mistranslated story of S&G, or a single line about knowing you before you were born to indicate that a life begins at conception, while ignoring all the very specific detailed instruction on how to deal with a loss of a fetus at the hand of so one who was trying to do harm to the woman carrying it? With all the rules and laws laid out plainly showing how a fetus is property, just as the woman is, how do believers ignore all that in-favor of one mis-translated line in the NT? Simple, they negotiated it away like all the others, proving that its not the bible they are following but making the bible the justification for what they believe.
not one person can not point to one person you have ever meet and make the claim that they follow every rule/law/sentiment in the bible, but yet the 2 things in the bible that society hasn't gotten over are the ONLY things they peg their christianity on.

But I digress.

 

[heavyiron]

Interesting question, so what of the opposite? What if all christians have been believing in a deity that never existed because those against the "gods" of the time needed to combat the beliefs in them and created a mythical being called Jesus? There is no proof of any kind proving any actual deities so everyone could be wrong.
Why spend so much time over the minutia and not instead focus on being a better person so that IF there is a deity that controls access to an amazing afterlife, it can look at your life and say that you were a good person and just because you didn't believe in something mythical, because I provided no actual proof, you are permitted.
Why spend so much time and energy hating one group over another and using a book of fables that were written centuries ago by people reminiscing over tales handed down to them for over 200 years?
There's no way even in today's age to have a message delivered through more than 3 people without it turning into a death threat or a resignation letter for a job, so why put so much blind faith in a book of tales written on cloth and translated from forgotten languages into seldom used of understood languages, then into yet another language that has had the meanings of words morph and change over generations and kingdoms with dozens of variations depending on your sect? It makes no sense to me how people today use the bible as a biases for hate and segregation of peoples all the while ignoring all the other parts that they have negotiated away because it doesn't fit within their framework of a normal life. ie... no one - of any sound mind- is advocating to bring back stoning of women who cheat, selling off their children for oxen, and then reducing the price of the females if they had been raped and no longer have their virginity. No one is shunned for wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shellfish or playing with pigskin, can anyone say chicharrones? So why do we allow some other things to remain and flourish like the horribly mistranslated story of S&G, or a single line about knowing you before you were born to indicate that a life begins at conception, while ignoring all the very specific detailed instruction on how to deal with a loss of a fetus at the hand of so one who was trying to do harm to the woman carrying it? With all the rules and laws laid out plainly showing how a fetus is property, just as the woman is, how do believers ignore all that in-favor of one mis-translated line in the NT? Simple, they negotiated it away like all the others, proving that its not the bible they are following but making the bible the justification for what they believe.
not one person can not point to one person you have ever meet and make the claim that they follow every rule/law/sentiment in the bible, but yet the 2 things in the bible that society hasn't gotten over are the ONLY things they peg their christianity on.

But I digress.

I'm pretty sure many Christians believe the false Pagan Greek Philosophy and then apply that to their concept of God. If I went into a Christian forum and stated that time is just the distance between events and there is no such thing as God being outside of time, 15 Christian keyboard warriors with pages of copy and pastes would bludgeon me to death to prove their Pagan beliefs.

However, to answer your question, there are conflicting directives in scripture for a reason and we only apply certain passages to ourselves today because the past directives have been abrogated or replaced. An easy one to show is animal sacrifice. Its no longer needed because Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for sins. There are many more examples but that's the easiest one to grasp. His righteousness is imputed to us when we believe just as our sin was imputed to Him. Unfortunately many denominations focus on works for salvation such as the Catholic church. We are in the dispensation of the grace of God so works has no bearing on our justification. If that is true and I think it is then the Catholic church and any works based belief system is likely sending just as many people to hell as atheism.

Bottom line. You don't understand God or His directives and you reject Him based on your false construct.

 

[Milford King]

If I went into a Christian forum and stated that time is just the distance between events and there is no such thing as God being outside of time

Is there ever a point in the universe in which time does not exist?

I’m not gonna bludgeon you to death I’m just very interested in grasping the full meaning to what you just typed. I enjoy stretching my brain over abstract and complicated things of this nature it’s just I’m pretty dumb. And I have other questions but I wanna be sure those questions make sense first lol

 

[heavyiron]

Is there ever a point in the universe in which time does not exist?

I’m not gonna bludgeon you to death I’m just very interested in grasping the full meaning to what you just typed. I enjoy stretching my brain over abstract and complicated things of this nature it’s just I’m pretty dumb. And I have other questions but I wanna be sure those questions make sense first lol

"Have events always existed" would be the question to ask.

I don't think God has ever been stagnate and you could argue for a trinitarian or duality Godhead so what were either of those doing for eternity past?

 

[heavyiron]

Once again, friend of @SoulBoom, @PeteHolmes goes right to the heart of the matter: Do you believe in God or in Nothing? Or is God nothing? Or is nothing God? What makes the most sense? | Soul Boom | soulboom · Audio original

Once again, friend of @SoulBoom, @PeteHolmes goes right to the heart of the matter: Do you believe in God or in Nothing? Or is God nothing? Or is nothing God? What makes the most sense?. soulboom ·...

www.facebook.com

 

[heavyiron]

Does the Bible teach there was a time before time? Yes and no. Lets look at a couple of translations. The first is the King James and the second is the New King James translation.

2Ti 1:8 KJV
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:8 NKJV
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
2Ti 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Both translations are not exactly correct. I think the KJV has the right concept but its not a woodenly literal translation. The Greek word that may be translated "world" is kosmos (κόσμος). The Greek word that may be translated "time" is chronos (χρόνος). Here in the original, the word chronos is used. So why did the KJV translate it world? I think they looked at the context and the original Greek and realized Paul meant before a certain "age time". In the English translation you don't see the word "age" that may be translated from aiōnios (αἰώνιος)

I have bolded chronos (time) and aiōnios (age) in the original below. The tenses change the word slightly but you can still spot them.

1:9 τοῦ σώσαντος ἡμᾶς καὶ καλέσαντος κλήσει ἁγίᾳ οὐ κατὰ τὰ ἔργα ἡμῶν ἀλλὰ κατὰ ἰδίαν πρόθεσιν καὶ χάριν τὴν δοθεῖσαν ἡμῖν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

So here's a fair translation. 2 Ti 1:9 God, has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before age times.

Therefore the KJV has the right concept and the NKJV is more literal but both leave out the word "age".

There are other verses that are used to prove there was a time before time but you have to ask. Were these passages translated with Pagan Greek philosophy in mind when they were translated "before time began"? I think so.

We can get into a discussion about free will vs no free will when it comes to foreknowledge but the point is this, time is just the distance between events and the future does not exist. However I think the bigger question is, who or what is to blame for the brokenness of this world?

 

[Learningtopump]

I'm pretty sure many Christians believe the false Pagan Greek Philosophy and then apply that to their concept of God. If I went into a Christian forum and stated that time is just the distance between events and there is no such thing as God being outside of time, 15 Christian keyboard warriors with pages of copy and pastes would bludgeon me to death to prove their Pagan beliefs.

However, to answer your question, there are conflicting directives in scripture for a reason and we only apply certain passages to ourselves today because the past directives have been abrogated or replaced. An easy one to show is animal sacrifice. Its no longer needed because Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for sins. There are many more examples but that's the easiest one to grasp. His righteousness is imputed to us when we believe just as our sin was imputed to Him. Unfortunately many denominations focus on works for salvation such as the Catholic church. We are in the dispensation of the grace of God so works has no bearing on our justification. If that is true and I think it is then the Catholic church and any works based belief system is likely sending just as many people to hell as atheism.

Bottom line. You don't understand God or His directives and you reject Him based on your false construct.

I'm not sure if that a general 'you' or a specifically me your referring to. If it's me your directing the first part of that sentence you couldn't be more wrong.. It is not that I don't understand God or his directives, nor do I reject Him. I in no way shape or form believe in Him, there is no mallis, no mustunderstand that has caused me to be angry and at him and pushed him away. I simply don't believe in him, or Zuse, or Agamemnon, or the flying spaghetti monster. Contrary to popular belief, I don't believe in the devil, satan, beelzebub or morningstar either. Just as people who have never been indoctrinated don't believe, it has nothing to do with a misunderstanding.

 

[Learningtopump]

David Woods testimonial ^ it’s pretty powerful. This guy killed his own father with a hammer if I remember it correctly.

I don’t wanna turn this thread into what usually happens but for all the atheist and semi-agnostic and non believers who push back on theology and God and those who follow .... why do you believe the way you believe. You’re always asking us to reason our faith but you never tell us what you believe. Never explain your rationale when it comes to life and your faithfulness to your belief system.

For me, there’s many. But one that stands out is morality. I do not believe morality is a trait that could spawn through the evolutionary process. In fact, I think morality is a hinderance to everything evolution is. There is approximately zero morality in the animal kingdom and zero morality without God, at least according to me and my experiences.

As a long time atheist I can answer for most of us. The reason you never get an answer as to our beliefs structure is, is because we don't have one as it relates to a deity. It would be like you explaining why it is you don't believe in the tooth fairy, Santa, or leprechauns. How does one describe on more than 4 words, we just don't believe? Your never going to get an answer that will make you understand. Exactly like we will never understand why you guys worship such a vengeful, cruel, mean, uncaring, torchering deity. As for the last part, I would argue that if an atheist and a theist that behave in the exact same way the non believer is a much better person, as the isnt being a good person out of fear of spending eternity in a flaming cauldron of human remains, but because he just knows it's the right thing to do. Morality can not be fear driven, just like it can't be legislated.

 

[heavyiron]

If God knows the future then why does He change His mind so many times? The future does not exist.

IN B 4 anthropomorphism....

 

[Milford King]

As a long time atheist I can answer for most of us. The reason you never get an answer as to our beliefs structure is, is because we don't have one as it relates to a deity. It would be like you explaining why it is you don't believe in the tooth fairy, Santa, or leprechauns. How does one describe on more than 4 words, we just don't believe? Your never going to get an answer that will make you understand. Exactly like we will never understand why you guys worship such a vengeful, cruel, mean, uncaring, torchering deity. As for the last part, I would argue that if an atheist and a theist that behave in the exact same way the non believer is a much better person, as the isnt being a good person out of fear of spending eternity in a flaming cauldron of human remains, but because he just knows it's the right thing to do. Morality can not be fear driven, just like it can't be legislated.

You seem driven by angst against God. It could be looked at as a religion itself. You could actually state what you believe, even if you believe nothing (whatever that looks like).

So, what do you believe as far as human existence, purpose, the meaning of life or whatever.

 

[E.J.D]

Interesting clip from a much longer interview.

 

[heavyiron]

Interesting clip from a much longer interview.

She was always interesting to watch. Super artistic person.

 

[E.J.D]

She was always interesting to watch. Super artistic person.

Her portrait tattoos are in the top 3 I feel. Guess she does music now. Maybe primarily over tattooing. She brings up the stigma of outsider looking people going to church and being judged by the typical beaver cleaver looking congregation. Those are my words. I've found the ones always "looking" the Christian look and way. Are the most despicable individuals I've met before.

 

[heavyiron]

2 groups were given 2 distinct directives, but many Christians have no clue, and they apply the wrong directives to themselves. Catholic church is notorious for doing this, but I bet your church does it also with some passages.

 

[Multislacking]

Just a side note. The bible wasn't translated from forgotten languages to other languages, to other languages, ad infinitum. Common misconception. The vast majority was Hebrew and Greek and both languages are well known. Aramaic is in there as well, but it wasn't some lost language either and came into use after hebrew. Just because I don't speak french, doesn't make it a lost language. Merci.