Beginner Cycle

[Beeflord379]

I’m 29 ~200 pounds with 300 pound bench max and 385 squat max. I have been running eclomiphene for the last 7 months and have gone up from a T level of 482 to 1400. I’m thinking about running my first cycle and wanted some of your thoughts. I am primarily looking for strength and endurance gains as I also do BJJ. I’m thinking of running 200 mg of Test Cyp 2x per week and 30 mg of Tbol for a 8-12 weeks. I will be getting blood work during the cycle and after. Do you think this is to advanced for a beginner?

 

[rollin-tumblin]

I say send it. Full Send.

 

[Vision]

I’m 29 ~200 pounds with 300 pound bench max and 385 squat max. I have been running eclomiphene for the last 7 months and have gone up from a T level of 482 to 1400. I’m thinking about running my first cycle and wanted some of your thoughts. I am primarily looking for strength and endurance gains as I also do BJJ. I’m thinking of running 200 mg of Test Cyp 2x per week and 30 mg of Tbol for a 8-12 weeks. I will be getting blood work during the cycle and after. Do you think this is to advanced for a beginner?

There's absolutely no need for Tbol or ANY oral.
This compound serves a purpose, but certainly not in this case.
It's more of a cosmetic or alternative compound with bigger things down the road.

Stick to the basics.

You can do test only cycles repeatedly, with great success each time.

Do not underestimate test only cycles.

 

[Beeflord379]

There's absolutely no need for Tbol or ANY oral.
This compound serves a purpose, but certainly not in this case.
It's more of a cosmetic or alternative compound with bigger things down the road.

Stick to the basics.

You can do test only cycles repeatedly, with great success each time.

Do not underestimate test only cycles.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the reason I was going for T Bol was for the endurance gains that have made it famous with athletes. I get that T is the king of all, but given I have an optimal liver lipid profile and cholesterol, is it really that big of an issue if I run t bol?

 

[Hablooblah]

I like it, not a stupid first cycle. I enjoy TBol I think you would benefit from its increase in endurance being a fighter. But honestly I think it best to wait until later to run an oral. See how you respond to test first. Rule is test only first cycle. Youll hear that alot because its good advice. Always time for other stuff later.

 

[Hablooblah]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the reason I was going for T Bol was for the endurance gains that have made it famous with athletes. I get that T is the king of all, but given I have an optimal liver lipid profile and cholesterol, is it really that big of an issue if I run t bol?

No...honestly its not...if you want to run it run that shit. Youre not an idiot kid like alot of ppl we see hear who's a stranger to the gym and cant even spell nutrition. Youre 29 and already an athlete who trains and you get bloodwork. Test only first cycle is best. But a short run of TBol isnt going to make or break you. Just my humble opinion. My first cycle after 2 years on TRT was 500 Test/week and 40mg/day Tbol. Made great gains w the test pulling the weight. Tbol wont get you much lean mass, but the endurance and vascularity are great.

 

[Wardamn]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the reason I was going for T Bol was for the endurance gains that have made it famous with athletes. I get that T is the king of all, but given I have an optimal liver lipid profile and cholesterol, is it really that big of an issue if I run t bol?

I'd run EQ over Tbol.

 

[Hablooblah]

I'd run EQ over Tbol.

For a 1st? Lol jumping right in the deep end.

 

[Wardamn]

For a 1st? Lol jumping right in the deep end.

Over tbol, absolutely

 

[Beeflord379]

Over tbol, absolutely

Are you coming from a performance standpoint?

 

[Vision]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the reason I was going for T Bol was for the endurance gains that have made it famous with athletes. I get that T is the king of all, but given I have an optimal liver lipid profile and cholesterol, is it really that big of an issue if I run t bol?

This has nothing to do with your lipid profile, and everything to do with having more than what's necessary.

1) you don't even know how your body is going to respond to testosterone, what your sensitivities are, and how your body will decide to break up testosterone - let alone the conversion to other hormones.

2) Tbol will not give you the added advantage, in fact it will put you in a disadvantage, by ultimately giving you a handicap that you were yet to even know about. PUMPS!

3) we often hear people talk about improved pumps during their training when being ON.
This is factual, and one of the best parts about it for me.

The handicap, this can sometimes make certain movements debilitating for people.
By experiencing excessive pumps.

When you're simply on testosterone only, an individual will still have an increase with fluid partitioning directly into the muscle bellies,
This sarcoplasmic fluid, is going to be further enhanced with TBOL.

This is going to hinder your grip when rolling, whether you're doing gi or no-gi.

You're already thinking about what can give you the added advantage, yet you're really pushing for a reason to go further.

You are going to experience everything that you've ever wanted, or even expected with a successful testosterone only, I promise you.
Push that any further, you're going to give yourself false indicators with not learning, with what's working, how it's working or when.

Don't miss a perfectly good opportunity at really getting a chance to know the ropes. I'm being serious.

 

[Wardamn]

Are you coming from a performance standpoint?

Yes, I always get an increase in stamina and muscle staying power when running EQ.

 

[Big_Jimmy434]

given I have an optimal liver lipid profile and cholesterol, is it really that big of an issue if I run t bol?

This statement is like saying "I have a excellent spine and knees so is it really that big of an issue if I jump off my roof." As you can see, there is an obvious failure in that logic. The failure being, the unknown when you hit the ground. Will jumping off healthy increase the chances nothing will happen as opposed to jumping with a bad back? Certainly. Will it still hurt, dunno? Could it? Absolutely.

The presence of good health today does not ensure good health tomorrow when another variable is introduced. Especially two variables.

If I made a recommendation, Test only. I'd never do orals on a first run. Honestly, with a 1400 T level, I'd say diet and train harder before I would even recommend Test.

 

[elit3keraed]

I know everyone else is stuck on orals and EQ but I’m still wondering why you’re going to run such a small dose of test. You don’t know how you’ll even respond to it and you’re at 1400 on enclomiphene so why risk running dose that’s basically what you’re able to produce with a SERM? Seems like an awful lot of stress just to pop an oral for some performance boost.


MAYBE you are a hyper responder and get 10x multiplier. Or you’re like me and wind up with 832 TT on a total of 180mg a week (3 pins at 60mg each). Then you’re just at a worse position than you started all to take an oral.


Why not just run test at a higher ish dosage? 300 to 350? Skip the oral since you won’t know how you’ll even respond to test and if you have issues you’ll know it’s test (or estrogen) related instead of trying to figure out what’s what?

If you’re looking for more cardio output/endurance then you could always run Cardarine alongside the enclomiphene and skip the cycle all together.

 

[Vision]

Yes, I always get an increase in stamina and muscle staying power when running EQ.

This improvement I feel relatively quick, within a week. From there, it's like chasing a ghost, you want it more and more. No better feeling than having your wind up to par.

This statement is like saying "I have a excellent spine and knees so is it really that big of an issue if I jump off my roof." As you can see, there is an obvious failure in that logic. The failure being, the unknown when you hit the ground. Will jumping off healthy increase the chances nothing will happen as opposed to jumping with a bad back? Certainly. Will it still hurt, dunno? Could it? Absolutely.

The presence of good health today does not ensure good health tomorrow when another variable is introduced. Especially two variables.

If I made a recommendation, Test only. I'd never do orals on a first run. Honestly, with a 1400 T level, I'd say diet and train harder before I would even recommend Test.

I was trying to think of a good metaphor.

 

[elit3keraed]

This statement is like saying "I have a excellent spine and knees so is it really that big of an issue if I jump off my roof." As you can see, there is an obvious failure in that logic. The failure being, the unknown when you hit the ground. Will jumping off healthy increase the chances nothing will happen as opposed to jumping with a bad back? Certainly. Will it still hurt, dunno? Could it? Absolutely.

The presence of good health today does not ensure good health tomorrow when another variable is introduced. Especially two variables.

If I made a recommendation, Test only. I'd never do orals on a first run. Honestly, with a 1400 T level, I'd say diet and train harder before I would even recommend Test.

I had healthy knees and jumped off roofs all the time in high school without issue…



I mean…surely the issues I have with my knees, hips and low back are from being nearly a senior citizen at 36…definitely not from jumping off roofs

 

[Beeflord379]

This has nothing to do with your lipid profile, and everything to do with having more than what's necessary.

1) you don't even know how your body is going to respond to testosterone, what your sensitivities are, and how your body will decide to break up testosterone - let alone the conversion to other hormones.

2) Tbol will not give you the added advantage, in fact it will put you in a disadvantage, by ultimately giving you a handicap that you were yet to even know about. PUMPS!

3) we often hear people talk about improved pumps during their training when being ON.
This is factual, and one of the best parts about it for me.

The handicap, this can sometimes make certain movements debilitating for people.
By experiencing excessive pumps.

When you're simply on testosterone only, an individual will still have an increase with fluid partitioning directly into the muscle bellies,
This sarcoplasmic fluid, is going to be further enhanced with TBOL.

This is going to hinder your grip when rolling, whether you're doing gi or no-gi.

You're already thinking about what can give you the added advantage, yet you're really pushing for a reason to go further.

You are going to experience everything that you've ever wanted, or even expected with a successful testosterone only, I promise you.
Push that any further, you're going to give yourself false indicators with not learning, with what's working, how it's working or when.

Don't miss a perfectly good opportunity at really getting a chance to know the ropes. I'm being serious.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I’m going to just run the 200mg/week (100 2x) for the first few weeks. If I’m feeling good with minimal sides I’ll consider titrating up to 300mg/week. Then I’ll consider running t bol for the last 4 if things are continuing to go smoothly. In this scenario I feel like I would have been exposed to Test long enough know how my body interacts with which would allow introducing another compound.

 

[Vision]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I’m going to just run the 200mg/week (100 2x) for the first few weeks. If I’m feeling good with minimal sides I’ll consider titrating up to 300mg/week. Then I’ll consider running t bol for the last 4 if things are continuing to go smoothly. In this scenario I feel like I would have been exposed to Test long enough know how my body interacts with which would allow introducing another compound.

Keep in mind, that this isn't "your" test.
So yes you're probably used to "your" own test -plateaus elsewhere etc, but you'll be shutting that down, and the replacement will no longer be yours.
Therefore, you're going to feel completely different, and different things are going to happen.
Lab equipment may say that there's no difference between your testosterone, verse synthetic. But your endocrine is going to say differently. Bump up the test a little bit, and enjoy the ride. 300-400.

 

[Hablooblah]

I know everyone else is stuck on orals and EQ but I’m still wondering why you’re going to run such a small dose of test. You don’t know how you’ll even respond to it and you’re at 1400 on enclomiphene so why risk running dose that’s basically what you’re able to produce with a SERM? Seems like an awful lot of stress just to pop an oral for some performance boost.


MAYBE you are a hyper responder and get 10x multiplier. Or you’re like me and wind up with 832 TT on a total of 180mg a week (3 pins at 60mg each). Then you’re just at a worse position than you started all to take an oral.


Why not just run test at a higher ish dosage? 300 to 350? Skip the oral since you won’t know how you’ll even respond to test and if you have issues you’ll know it’s test (or estrogen) related instead of trying to figure out what’s what?

If you’re looking for more cardio output/endurance then you could always run Cardarine alongside the enclomiphene and skip the cycle all together.

This is a great point

 

[Hablooblah]

Yes, I always get an increase in stamina and muscle staying power when running EQ.

EQ is far superior but adding it on on a first cycle? I respectfully disagree. If hes insistent on adding a secondary compound later on then a "mild" oral for a short period is definitely the better route. Not even knowing how he will respond as far as erythropoiesis from test adding EQ would be a mistake.

 

[elit3keraed]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I’m going to just run the 200mg/week (100 2x) for the first few weeks. If I’m feeling good with minimal sides I’ll consider titrating up to 300mg/week. Then I’ll consider running t bol for the last 4 if things are continuing to go smoothly. In this scenario I feel like I would have been exposed to Test long enough know how my body interacts with which would allow introducing another compound.

Not how it works.

You inject 100mg and it peaks over the course of a day or two….then it drops a bit. Then next shot and it so it goes on a roller coaster.

Your natural levels peak in the AM then lower during the day. Then it repeats. Every morning.

Your body will aromatize based on the peak: which means if your 100mg shot puts you at 2000 it will aromatize accordingly and then your test drops and you’re left with the estrogen from a 2000 peak despite being at 1000 by your next shot (extreme example obviously).

You’re also getting twice weekly “super peaks” vs daily smaller peaks.


I didn’t have many issues with estrogen until I started injecting test. Then it all went to shit .

I’d get bloods on your trough to see what your levels are at. Cuz if you’re winding up at 600 by the time you’re due for your next shot then you’re basically shutting your body down for less than enclomiphene does for you.


Shutting down your HPTA for less than your current levels is silly…and then you’ll have to PCT which will be a whole other can of worms for maintaining results and performance

 

[Montego]

Just run 4-500mg test a week for 14-16 weeks.

Easy beginner cycle

 

[Buffalo]

Enclo basically doubled my test but I didn't feel good, I think its shit and not worth the risks, you might have noticed the test bump and feel ok on it. Can't imagine doing 7 months on it.

Make sure you've got your PCT lined up and know what do to after the cycle. And how to handle estrogen on cycle if it becomes an issue.

 

[Beeflord379]

Not how it works.

You inject 100mg and it peaks over the course of a day or two….then it drops a bit. Then next shot and it so it goes on a roller coaster.

Your natural levels peak in the AM then lower during the day. Then it repeats. Every morning.

Your body will aromatize based on the peak: which means if your 100mg shot puts you at 2000 it will aromatize accordingly and then your test drops and you’re left with the estrogen from a 2000 peak despite being at 1000 by your next shot (extreme example obviously).

You’re also getting twice weekly “super peaks” vs daily smaller peaks.


I didn’t have many issues with estrogen until I started injecting test. Then it all went to shit .

I’d get bloods on your trough to see what your levels are at. Cuz if you’re winding up at 600 by the time you’re due for your next shot then you’re basically shutting your body down for less than enclomiphene does for you.


Shutting down your HPTA for less than your current levels is silly…and then you’ll have to PCT which will be a whole other can of worms for maintaining results and performance

Perf

Not how it works.

You inject 100mg and it peaks over the course of a day or two….then it drops a bit. Then next shot and it so it goes on a roller coaster.

Your natural levels peak in the AM then lower during the day. Then it repeats. Every morning.

Your body will aromatize based on the peak: which means if your 100mg shot puts you at 2000 it will aromatize accordingly and then your test drops and you’re left with the estrogen from a 2000 peak despite being at 1000 by your next shot (extreme example obviously).

You’re also getting twice weekly “super peaks” vs daily smaller peaks.


I didn’t have many issues with estrogen until I started injecting test. Then it all went to shit .

I’d get bloods on your trough to see what your levels are at. Cuz if you’re winding up at 600 by the time you’re due for your next shot then you’re basically shutting your body down for less than enclomiphene does for you.


Shutting down your HPTA for less than your current levels is silly…and then you’ll have to PCT which will be a whole other can of worms for maintaining results and performance

what about performance wise? If I was to bump up to 150 2x week, are you saying I would have better or the same results from a strength and lean muscle accumulation if I just stuck with the eclomiphene?

 

[elit3keraed]

Perf

what about performance wise? If I was to bump up to 150 2x week, are you saying I would have better or the same results from a strength and lean muscle accumulation if I just stuck with the eclomiphene?

I’m saying you don’t know how your body will respond to injectable test so running what is a TRT dose for a lot of folks isn’t optimal.

You’re trying to optimize your performance. 300-350 will definitely get you to a higher level than enclomiphene and at the trough should at least be at enclomiphene levels (or maybe you have horrible response to injectable test who knows)

You’d pin for 4 weeks, pull bloods and see where you’re at.

Or you could run test at 200 for 4 weeks, pull bloods and realize you’re barely at enclomiphene levels, now you have to up your dosage, pull bloods in another 4 weeks to see where your estradiol is at and your test is at, and now you’re 2/3rds through your cycle and by the time you make adjustments you’re coming off and pounding enclomiphene and spending 6 weeks waiting to see where your test levels wind up and then another 6-12 weeks before you’d ideally cycle again (with blood pre cycle obviously).

Some people recover super easy. Some don’t. It’s safer to assume recovery will take longer than it is to assume it will take less time. So if you’re going to put yourself in a tough situation (restarting production) why not be a little more aggressive with your dosing? It’s not like you’re slamming a gram first cycle. I remember a few years back 500 was the “minimum” cycle. It seems like it’s gotten a lot more conservative and there’s many positives to running “low” test with other anabolics as the main driver but for first cycles, test will give you a performance boost and you’ll be able to see how your body responds.


Also you should definitely have an AI on hand as well as hCG for your cycle regardless of if you choose to go 200mg or 300mg (I need low dose ai on 300).

 

[balin]

Running 1 new drug as a time will let you know what that drug is actually doing which make future cycles easier to plan.