On TRT, First Cycle Considering Dbol

[Chac]

No sweat Nightwing, I did get your point that I could read more rather than ask what's definitely been asked before. Your wondering of randomly turning over a new leaf wasn't far off!

Being on TRT showed me another avenue of proactive healthcare versus what our primary care docs offer, which is more sick-care (Rx big pharma drugs).

So then I started thinking "hmm, TRT has been positive for my health, maybe 'steroids' aren't the poison I've been led to believe, maybe there are substances I can use to help reach fitness goals (albeit aesthetic) while not actually harming my body, maybe even improving aesthetic and longevity"

Which started my researching. Which in prior decades I'd never given a thought to. I'm sure the demand will continue to go through the roof (has anyone looked at the stats for reddit trt channel? Exponential growth)

 

[Chac]

All these gear have specific effect. You just can't randomly say i am going to run Dbol. This might help you with your decision.

How I plan a cycle

This is gold, thanks!

 

[Chac]

I love proviron for a million reasons. my choice would be proviron

I'm not set on an oral at all. I'm pinning daily recently for trt. I led us down the oral road with dbol because I was misinformed. Now I feel slightly biased towards injectables. Seems easier on organs, but I may again be over simplifying. Thanks for the suggestion though, I may someday need this info!

 

[Chac]

I found this E2 management thread. So with that, I think this thread has accomplished all that it set out to.

Thank you all for weighing in. Obviously if more insights come to mind, I'll read all you share. I just did want to thank the community for contributing, this is a solid resource and group.

 

[Chac]

I return to the wellspring of expert experience here.

Checking back in. I just got back mid cycle results today (Quest took 9 days to tell me E2 and is still working on testosterone results, I'll post when I have it).

I'm at 121 estradiol . 6 weeks into 500mg test e and 1,000IU HCG (I spread that weekly dose across an injection every day as I didn't like pip of higher volume. I'm not noticing any e2 sides (at least related to nipples). Libido/erections are great, morning wood every single day which isn't my TRT norm.

Staring at my pack of 25mg Aromasin wondering how much/often to take?

Then how soon to do estradiol labs again. Thoughts?

 

[Glycomann]

It's not a straight call. If it were me I would probably leave the Aromasin in the box and drop the hCG to 500 iu/w. All your systems seem OK even thought the E is high. Keep your diet clean or if not clean now clean it up. That will help. Reduce or eliminate alcohol because it pushes estrogen higher. I would say if you were having gyno symptoms to hit the Aromasin right away and at 25 mg/d but that is not the case. If they start getting itchy then high the Aromasin right away.

 

[Chac]

Thank you for that. I don't drink so good there. Am on a bulk, so will dial that back a touch as I have noticed slight increase in BF so I'm def slightly over eating my muscle synthesis ability. I also have DIM and Calcium D Glucarate arriving today, which v Steve says helps breakdown estrogen and shuttle it out of system.

 

[Chac]

Testosterone back (sidenote, this is my first time using quest after longtime LabCorp, and their free testosterone is so wildly different than LabCorp it's unusable unless someone has a trick).

Will start another thread.

 

[Castaway]

Team,

I could use the expertise of the group.

39 male, 15years lifting, 6ft 205, BF ~20%

Goal: gain to 225lbs keeping bodyfat in check. Eventually bring bodyfat into high teens. If you believe I should do these in opposite order, please share that.

TRT I've been on for 1 year. Currently 200mg/wk test CYP, 750IU HCG, each pinned 3TW. (No AI needed at this dose). Also take 2mg/day finasteride to maintain hair

Recent lab
Testosterone: (RR 264-916) ng/dL, 1313
Free Testosterone(Direct): (RR 8.7-25.1) pg/mL, 27.1
Estradiol (MPMD ideal is 5% total T): (RR 7.6-42.6) pg/mL, 28.3
Prostate Specific Ag01: (RR 0.0-4.0) ng/mL, 0.5
DHEA-Sulfate: (RR 102.6-416.3) ug/dL, 191
Insulin-Like Growth Factor: (RR 95-290) ng/mL, 186
Insulin Final: (RR 2.6-24.9) uIU/mL, 7.7
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum: (RR 16.5-55.9) nmol/L, 20.8
DHT Dihydrotestosterone: (RR 30-85) ng/dL, 18
TSH: (RR .45-4.5) uIU/mL, 2.2

Questions:
What do you think of below idea? Tweaks? Completely disagree and propose a new plan?
I'm aware of textbook E2 symptoms, but need advice on where I may proactively leverage aromosin, and at what date stages I should pull E2 labs. Liver protection beyond milk thistle?

Based on some prior reading, I got enough dbol to do a 4-6wk 20mg or 40mg / day cycle. I've heard this is a solid balance of bulking/tolerable ped.

My half baked plan is either 20/40mg of dbol on top of normal trt regiment for 4-6 weeks, while training hard and eating 300-500 caloric surplus a day.

I also got one vial of primo. Unsure if this is enough to yield any result at all. I also have enough test to increase above normal trt dose of recommended.

That's as far as ive gotten. I won't start until I have a solid plan ironed out. Just reaching out here as I've hit my limit of planning in a vacuum and can use the shared expertise here.

Thanks

You set on an oral? Dbol bloats me. If you wanna just do a hard-core oral Anadrol? Lol, people still use adrol?
Or fuck it...go balls out trestalone! Jump on the MENT train....it's still findable.
I'm just bullshitting now, sorry.
Hey, seriously just had a thought...what about EQ? Size without the subcutaneous edema...I really dig equipoise

 

[Androgenocide]

I don't have a deep answer. Essentially in my reading here and watching mpmd, v-steve, others it seemed to emerge as one that can achieve my goal of hypertrophy that is least aggressive on sides.

I read about Tbol, and primo separately and it seemed they were more fitted for toning/recomp/linear gains.

Please set me straight where I'm misunderstanding, I'm a newb beyond my trt.

Dbol has awful sides for some people (including myself) and you starting a bulk at 20% bf will make the sides worse. My advice is to cut to at least 15% bf and run a cycle of 400 test to see how you tolerate it. Then I’d throw the Dbol in the garbage.

Oh, and unsubscribe from MPMD.

Best of luck to you, sir.

 

[Chac]

You set on an oral? Dbol bloats me. If you wanna just do a hard-core oral Anadrol? Lol, people still use adrol?
Or fuck it...go balls out trestalone! Jump on the MENT train....it's still findable.
I'm just bullshitting now, sorry.
Hey, seriously just had a thought...what about EQ? Size without the subcutaneous edema...I really dig equipoise

Hey, I've not looked into eq. The sanity of this forum prevailed over my original idea and I'm currently halfway through a solo test e cycle. Just continued adding to the thread since it has context with a solid group

 

[Chac]

Dbol has awful sides for some people (including myself) and you starting a bulk at 20% bf will make the sides worse. My advice is to cut to at least 15% bf and run a cycle of 400 test to see how you tolerate it. Then I’d throw the Dbol in the garbage.

Oh, and unsubscribe from MPMD.

Best of luck to you, sir.

Thanks for the ideas. Haha bdol into trash is my most likely avenue for it. I'm currently 6 weeks into a 500 test e cycle. So far so good. I was unrealistically trying to gain .75lbs a week (which I have so far) but definitely increasing BF. So just reduced carbs and fat slightly, while keeping protein high. I'm definitely growing muscle, just not 3/4lb a week heh, so no reason to also get fat(ter) at the same time.

 

[Androgenocide]

Thanks for the ideas. Haha bdol into trash is my most likely avenue for it. I'm currently 6 weeks into a 500 test e cycle. So far so good. I was unrealistically trying to gain .75lbs a week (which I have so far) but definitely increasing BF. So just reduced carbs and fat slightly, while keeping protein high. I'm definitely growing muscle, just not 3/4lb a week heh, so no reason to also get fat(ter) at the same time.

Nice man! I've also made the mistake of gaining too quickly in the past. I'm happy to hear you've identified this as an issue and stopped it early.

"Rome wasn't built in a day."

 

[Castaway]

Hey, I've not looked into eq. The sanity of this forum prevailed over my original idea and I'm currently halfway through a solo test e cycle. Just continued adding to the thread since it has context with a solid group

Good call, test only can never do you dirty

 

[Dmyz]

500mg test with ai on hand and cut to a six pack.
16 weeks.

Or try tren ace and taper up from 200-350 and keep your test @TRT.
8-12 weeks.

But cut regardless.

20% is too much bf to be playing with a watery compound like dbol.

EDIT: seen you went with just test after posting this. Wise choice.

 

[Chac]

500mg test with ai on hand and cut to a six pack.
16 weeks.

Or try tren ace and taper up from 200-350 and keep your test @TRT.
8-12 weeks.

But cut regardless.

20% is too much bf to be playing with a watery compound like dbol.

EDIT: seen you went with just test after posting this. Wise choice.

Np, I appreciate your reply! I'm still trying to gain muscle weight, but am tinkering with diet much more as my surplus was too high.

I one of those robots who eats about the same thing everyday for simplicity. If you know of any examples diet posts, I'd be interested (have been searching on phone here but not finding em).

Here's my current daily:
4 bananas, 2.5cups oats, 2 cup whole.milk, 2 cups OJ, 4 scoops whey isolate (Split across three shakes)

4 eggs

2 Cups white Rice + 4oz chicken or beef

230g Fage 0% yogurt with blueberries

3000 calories, 225g protein, 387 carbs, 60 fat

I was doing 3500 cals for first 8 weeks of cycle, but was gaining fat, dialing back in still being at a surplus to gain

 

[Dmyz]

Np, I appreciate your reply! I'm still trying to gain muscle weight, but am tinkering with diet much more as my surplus was too high.

I one of those robots who eats about the same thing everyday for simplicity. If you know of any examples diet posts, I'd be interested (have been searching on phone here but not finding em).

Here's my current daily:
4 bananas, 2.5cups oats, 2 cup whole.milk, 2 cups OJ, 4 scoops whey isolate (Split across three shakes)

4 eggs

2 Cups white Rice + 4oz chicken or beef

230g Fage 0% yogurt with blueberries

3000 calories, 225g protein, 387 carbs, 60 fat

I was doing 3500 cals for first 8 weeks of cycle, but was gaining fat, dialing back in still being at a surplus to gain

I believe you're going to be fighting the anabolics with water weight at that bf% my guy.

@20% it's time to cut down. You'll love how you look as you trim that shit off and it isn't like you'll be sacrificing any muscle mass bc the test will help you retain everything you've got.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tom36]

I don’t see a big problem with dbol, but I would cut first, and ditch the finasteride. That’s just me, but I would trade my hair for the rest of the package.

 

[oldbull]

One thing that stands out to me from this thread and others is the repeated advice that folks cut down on body fat first before trying to gain muscle.

Not trying to be a smarty pants here, but is that validated with research or is that just basically a custom that’s evolved?

Again, I am legit asking and not trying to act like I know more than folks on here with a lot more experience.

I have never cared much about body fat or even much about how I look, as long as I get strong. I do try to avoid getting more of a belly, though, as it hinders my hiking and other activities.

Last couple months, my wife has taken to just making me these huge salads for dinner topped with a huge chunk of shredded meat. I am talking like a pound of beef or pork or chicken every night for dinner.

I am not measuring my body fat but just from observation, I have gained in strength without getting fatter — which I always had a problem with before I used gear. I would get a lot bigger and stronger but also fatter.

By really focusing on meat but not eating potatoes and bread as much, is it not possible to keep gaining muscle without having to starve yourself first to reduce body fat?

Seems logical to me that it would be possible, but the prevailing theory seems to be you need to cut fat as much as possible first…

 

[Androgenocide]

One thing that stands out to me from this thread and others is the repeated advice that folks cut down on body fat first before trying to gain muscle.

Not trying to be a smarty pants here, but is that validated with research or is that just basically a custom that’s evolved?

Again, I am legit asking and not trying to act like I know more than folks on here with a lot more experience.

I have never cared much about body fat or even much about how I look, as long as I get strong. I do try to avoid getting more of a belly, though, as it hinders my hiking and other activities.

Last couple months, my wife has taken to just making me these huge salads for dinner topped with a huge chunk of shredded meat. I am talking like a pound of beef or pork or chicken every night for dinner.

I am not measuring my body fat but just from observation, I have gained in strength without getting fatter — which I always had a problem with before I used gear. I would get a lot bigger and stronger but also fatter.

By really focusing on meat but not eating potatoes and bread as much, is it not possible to keep gaining muscle without having to starve yourself first to reduce body fat?

Seems logical to me that it would be possible, but the prevailing theory seems to be you need to cut fat as much as possible first…

This is primarily a bodybuilding board so people usually recommend reducing bodyfat because that’s the quickest way to improve your appearance for nearly everyone. It’s also a steroid board and people experience worse estrogenic sides when they use testosterone at higher bodyfat levels.

 

[Tom36]

One thing that stands out to me from this thread and others is the repeated advice that folks cut down on body fat first before trying to gain muscle.

Not trying to be a smarty pants here, but is that validated with research or is that just basically a custom that’s evolved?

Again, I am legit asking and not trying to act like I know more than folks on here with a lot more experience.

I have never cared much about body fat or even much about how I look, as long as I get strong. I do try to avoid getting more of a belly, though, as it hinders my hiking and other activities.

Last couple months, my wife has taken to just making me these huge salads for dinner topped with a huge chunk of shredded meat. I am talking like a pound of beef or pork or chicken every night for dinner.

I am not measuring my body fat but just from observation, I have gained in strength without getting fatter — which I always had a problem with before I used gear. I would get a lot bigger and stronger but also fatter.

By really focusing on meat but not eating potatoes and bread as much, is it not possible to keep gaining muscle without having to starve yourself first to reduce body fat?

Seems logical to me that it would be possible, but the prevailing theory seems to be you need to cut fat as much as possible first…

The primary reason that people recommend cutting first is that we tend to loose some lean mass during a cut, so it makes sense that it would be better to cut to a body fat percentage that pleases you in the long term before entering a major hypertrophy phase, so that the muscle gained in the hypertrophy phase isn’t lost during the cut to satisfactory long term body fat levels. Is it supported by research? No. I’m not aware of conclusive research on the topic. It seems possible that you could end up in the same place regardless of which you did first. Again, I’m not aware of conclusive research on the topic.

If you’re already at a bodyfat percentage that you are pleased with long term, then why cut?

Neither of the above has addressed steroids. Higher levels of fat often result in more conversion to estrogen. With dbol in particular, this could be the difference between a fantastic steroid or just something that makes you bloated and gives you too many estrogenic side effects to run at a high dose.

My opinion, which may be incorrect, is that estrogen is half the point in dbol. It seems like if you’re going to crush e2 with AI’s while on dbol, you should just use tbol, eq, or primo instead. On the other hand, although I think methyl-estrone converting at a high rate to methyl-estradiol is probably what makes dbol shine, it is also usually the limiting factor in how much you can take and whether or not you like it.

 

[oldbull]

This is primarily a bodybuilding board so people usually recommend reducing bodyfat because that’s the quickest way to improve your appearance for nearly everyone. It’s also a steroid board and people experience worse estrogenic sides when they use testosterone at higher bodyfat levels.

Absolutely, I was just wondering how reasonable it is to expect to lose body fat while keeping muscle, which is what I would prefer to do. I suppose I have always thought of myself more as a powerlifter in the sense I am all about how much I can lift rather than my appearance.

I look like a diseased rodent and have been with my wife a quarter century so the attractiveness ship has sailed anyway. But I need to stay big and strong so no other dudes get any ideas, lol

 

[Tom36]

Absolutely, I was just wondering how reasonable it is to expect to lose body fat while keeping muscle, which is what I would prefer to do. I suppose I have always thought of myself more as a powerlifter in the sense I am all about how much I can lift rather than my appearance.

I look like a diseased rodent and have been with my wife a quarter century so the attractiveness ship has sailed anyway. But I need to stay big and strong so no other dudes get any ideas, lol

You can maintain and even gain muscle while losing fat a low to moderate rate, even without gear, if you’re starting failry fatty. The leaner you get, the harder it is to keep muscle while dropping fat. Gear helps. The mass monsters of the late ‘90’s to mid 2000’s actually gained weight going into contest, and they were dropping fat simultaneously. A few have disclosed their gear protocols, and they were pretty much all running over 3g/week of well paired oral and injectable steroids, plus low doses of gh.

So, maybe if you took

1g/week test
300mg/week injectable Winstrol
225mg/week tren
100mg/day anadrol
100mg/day anavar

You might be able to gain muscle while losing far even when you’re already lean. Of course, that’s gonna take a toll on your health, and even then, plenty of dudes took gear like that and never looked like Ronnie Coleman or Lee Priest.

 

[oldbull]

You can maintain and even gain muscle while losing fat a low to moderate rate, even without gear, if you’re starting failry fatty. The leaner you get, the harder it is to keep muscle while dropping fat. Gear helps. The mass monsters of the late ‘90’s to mid 2000’s actually gained weight going into contest, and they were dropping fat simultaneously. A few have disclosed their gear protocols, and they were pretty much all running over 3g/week of well paired oral and injectable steroids, plus low doses of gh.

So, maybe if you took

1g/week test
300mg/week injectable Winstrol
225mg/week tren
100mg/day anadrol
100mg/day anavar

You might be able to gain muscle while losing far even when you’re already lean. Of course, that’s gonna take a toll on your health, and even then, plenty of dudes took gear like that and never looked like Ronnie Coleman or Lee Priest.

Thanks, but I am Ok with just having a big ape-looking physique rather than trying to look super lean. I’ve got other hobbies and don’t want to devote as much time as necessary to look like some of the monsters on this forum. (And I call you all monsters with the deepest admiration and respect!)

 

[Tom36]

Thanks, but I am Ok with just having a big ape-looking physique rather than trying to look super lean. I’ve got other hobbies and don’t want to devote as much time as necessary to look like some of the monsters on this forum. (And I call you all monsters with the deepest admiration and respect!)

I wasn’t suggesting that you needed to do anything that doesn’t correspond to your goals. Simply saying that it is reasonable to keep or even gain muscle while dropping fat, depending on your situation, which is something you asked about.

 

[oldbull]

I wasn’t suggesting that you needed to do anything that doesn’t correspond to your goals. Simply saying that it is reasonable to keep or even gain muscle while dropping fat, depending on your situation, which is something you asked about.

No, of course, I did not take it that way! I was just explaining that I am lazy without actually stating it quite so bluntly lol