Lagging shoulders

[Void]

Okay, I know this is a fairly common topic, but I’m asking again.

I’ve always had garbage shoulders both strength and size wise. I’m more concerned with the size as I’m not doing any powerlifting, but even so they’re significantly weaker than any other muscle group.

I’ve done primarily mountain dog style training for 7-8 years or so now, and I’ve tried a lot of different variations on shoulders aside from that. John doesn’t do much for shoulders in many of his workouts, so I’ve usually added a secondary shoulder only day, but to little or no effect.

I won’t be one of those people who says “I’ve tried everything” or else I wouldn’t even bother posting, but I have tried everything I can think of. Focusing on rear delts, high reps, low reps, training them a little every day, training them with chest and separately, lots of banded exercises, lots of drop sets, etc.


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[mayhem124]

Heavy overhead press or even push press, 5-8 reps to build overall strength, 12-15 rep range for hypertrophy. Do both like 1 heavy day, 1 volume day, with accessory shoulder work after (lateral raises, front raises, rear fly, etc.).

Overhead press is the king of shoulders for me. Works upper chest too. When you can cleanly overhead press heavy weight for reps, those shoulders will grow.

Getting a muscle group stronger first allows you to hit heavier weight at hypertrophy ranges and accessory exercises, boom! Then comes the mass.

By no means am I any fitness coach or expert but I had a shoulder injury years ago and had to build back my strength first, then focus on growing them. It has been working for me and I'll continue this until it stops working.

 

[Odin13]

Something that worked for me is doing Db laterals twice during my shoulder workout. After warming up I do them as my first exercise with a heavy weight and a little bit of cheating. Then I do them again as my last exceeding with a light weight and strict form.

 

[GarlicChicken]

Start doing DC style rest pause sets on whichever OHP you're comfortable with. Start in a higher rep range and then go heavier as you feel they can handle it. Push progressive overload. Then add in the Mountaindog techniques with your rear and side delts. You could even do rest pause laterals or rears if you were so inclined.

Push the progressive overload, and also hit the high rep 20-25 rep sets with drop sets, especially for your rear delts. That combo has worked wonders for me

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[Montego]

Okay, I know this is a fairly common topic, but I’m asking again.

I’ve always had garbage shoulders both strength and size wise. I’m more concerned with the size as I’m not doing any powerlifting, but even so they’re significantly weaker than any other muscle group.

I’ve done primarily mountain dog style training for 7-8 years or so now, and I’ve tried a lot of different variations on shoulders aside from that. John doesn’t do much for shoulders in many of his workouts, so I’ve usually added a secondary shoulder only day, but to little or no effect.

I won’t be one of those people who says “I’ve tried everything” or else I wouldn’t even bother posting, but I have tried everything I can think of. Focusing on rear delts, high reps, low reps, training them a little every day, training them with chest and separately, lots of banded exercises, lots of drop sets, etc.


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How often are you training them and, what do those days look like.

 

[Void]

How often are you training them and, what do those days look like.

I train them twice, once after chest with whatever my program (Mountain Dog style) consists of, usually a rear and side delt exercise, sometimes all three heads.

Then again 4 days later I do a shoulder only day, typically goes

Rear delt, full ROM exercise 3-4 sets of 15-25
Side delt, same
Front, same

Rear delt, heavy bottom end partials, 3-4 sets of 25-30 super set with side, same scheme
Front same

Rear, top heavy partials, 3-4 sets of 25-35
Superset with side same scheme
Front, same but seperate

I usually end with banded work, such as pulls aparts, spider crawls, or over and backs

I don’t do a ton of pressing because I’ve got some neck issues and OHP usually messes with it, but from what I’ve gathered here, that seems to be where I need to focus


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[GarlicChicken]

I train them twice, once after chest with whatever my program (Mountain Dog style) consists of, usually a rear and side delt exercise, sometimes all three heads.

Then again 4 days later I do a shoulder only day, typically goes

Rear delt, full ROM exercise 3-4 sets of 15-25
Side delt, same
Front, same

Rear delt, heavy bottom end partials, 3-4 sets of 25-30 super set with side, same scheme
Front same

Rear, top heavy partials, 3-4 sets of 25-35
Superset with side same scheme
Front, same but seperate

I usually end with banded work, such as pulls aparts, spider crawls, or over and backs

I don’t do a ton of pressing because I’ve got some neck issues and OHP usually messes with it, but from what I’ve gathered here, that seems to be where I need to focus


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Yeah I have neck issues too. Once I started getting everything stronger it actually made my neck hurt less. It was hell for a while but I pushed through and now my neck is better.

Now if I could just avoid shoulder injuries lol

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[mayhem124]

Yeah, you need some pressing movements. If barbell OHP irritates your neck, try dumbells.

I had to use dumbells for a while as my shoulder got better/stronger. Dumbells allowed me to rotate my grip to positions and put less stress on my shoulder.

Nowadays I love a good set of heavy BB OHP.

 

[GarlicChicken]

Yeah you need pressing. If you have it, try a plate loaded press. Maybe try sitting backwards. With the one at my gym, I can sit backwards and get more direct delt work without as much weight. Take that and do rest pause. I'm pretty confident it will work

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[Montego]

I would say you're doing to much fluff work and not enough meat and potatoes work.

Your volume is high and you're training them multiple times per week.

Unless your intensity is just absurdly shit, I would guess you're training them too much.

Pull all the bands and extra stuff.

Day 1 -

2 pressing sets, heavy, up to but not to failure.

1 set for medial and rear.

Day 2 -
2 high rep sets to failure on a pressing movement

1 high rep set to failure on medial and rear.

 

[selfmademonster]

Heavy overhead press or even push press, 5-8 reps to build overall strength, 12-15 rep range for hypertrophy. Do both like 1 heavy day, 1 volume day, with accessory shoulder work after (lateral raises, front raises, rear fly, etc.).

Overhead press is the king of shoulders for me. Works upper chest too. When you can cleanly overhead press heavy weight for reps, those shoulders will grow.

Getting a muscle group stronger first allows you to hit heavier weight at hypertrophy ranges and accessory exercises, boom! Then comes the mass.

By no means am I any fitness coach or expert but I had a shoulder injury years ago and had to build back my strength first, then focus on growing them. It has been working for me and I'll continue this until it stops working.

Great advise here, also what Montego said about too much fluff....Ive never seen a strong presser with narrow shoulders, don't major in the minors as Wendler would say

 

[Void]

I’ll give all this a shot, definitely adding some pressing in this week. Big thanks to all you guys. Will keep posted how it goes over the next few weeks.


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[LimitPhobic]

best advice i can think of is, keep your shoulders down and work on FEELING those muscles work.
its amazing what a difference that can make. start at low weights if needed to really FEEL that muscle.
Without knowing it, i was sacrificing my chest trying to go to big on weights and later learned i was recruiting more arms and shoulders than chest.
figured that out, and my game improved.
gotta feel it brotha

 

[mayhem124]

best advice i can think of is, keep your shoulders down and work on FEELING those muscles work.
its amazing what a difference that can make. start at low weights if needed to really FEEL that muscle.
Without knowing it, i was sacrificing my chest trying to go to big on weights and later learned i was recruiting more arms and shoulders than chest.
figured that out, and my game improved.
gotta feel it brotha

Yep, more good advice. Mind to muscle connection! Focus on the muscle you are targeting, time under tension, and controlled repetitions, full contraction, and controlled concentric movement all make a world of difference.

When you feel it, you'll know.....

 

[ArgonCoagulator]

I would say you're doing to much fluff work and not enough meat and potatoes work.

Your volume is high and you're training them multiple times per week.

Unless your intensity is just absurdly shit, I would guess you're training them too much.

Pull all the bands and extra stuff.

Day 1 -

2 pressing sets, heavy, up to but not to failure.

1 set for medial and rear.

Day 2 -
2 high rep sets to failure on a pressing movement

1 high rep set to failure on medial and rear.

I like this mentality toward training. I found early on that more than 2 hard sets with a certain weight doesn't lead to better progress. However these days, I like to do 3 slightly more moderate sets for more volume and also to not have to use such a ridiculously heavy weight for certain exercises like military presses.

 

[SloppyJ]

Had that issue too a long time ago. I hated shoulders. One day I said fuck it and started doing heavy presses and never looked back. Standing OHP is what single handedly changed the game for me. I'm talking HEAVY. Now they're one of my best body parts.... let's not talk about calves. Next on my list.

I'll do two different heavy presses but I always do standing OHP first. Get up to your 5 rep range or so and hammer them out for 3-4 sets. Start strict and work in some knee drive/pop to finish it out. For me that's around 275# then I'll keep 135# on while racking the weight and do one set of 15 before I move on. After that it's normally seated DB presses or smith then I'll do some fluff high rep iso stuff for a nasty pump. What also changed is that I dedicate a whole day to shoulders instead of just tacking them on to another workout. Lets you focus and take your time to get some extra volume.

 

[LimitPhobic]

Yep, more good advice. Mind to muscle connection! Focus on the muscle you are targeting, time under tension, and controlled repetitions, full contraction, and controlled concentric movement all make a world of difference.

When you feel it, you'll know.....

Looks like I was preaching to the choir. Good stuff bro. Something else to note: when doing dumbbell raises, keep your elbow bent just a little. And over head presses: keep your elbows slightly In front of you and not directly to the sides.

 

[mayhem124]

Looks like I was preaching to the choir. Good stuff bro. Something else to note: when doing dumbbell raises, keep your elbow bent just a little. And over head presses: keep your elbows slightly In front of you and not directly to the sides.

Nah, I was just agreeing with you advice for the OP. This wasn't my thread or issue. I posted some advice early on but this is someone else's deal.

 

[Augustine5I]

I want to suggest the Oxford training principle.

Instead of pyramiding up and down or just up in your weights.

Start at your heaviest weight first while you are the strongest. And drop down in weight as you get more fatigued keeping with maximum intensity.

Of course a proper warm up should be employed prior to starting.

I trained this way for a long time bc it just made sense to me as I was trying to get my strongest.

Good luck


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[Syntha Claus]

Have you ever considered the Mountain Dog system you mention so much doesn’t work for YOU?
When I was doing person physical training I didn’t use the sameeverything on everybody.

 

[Void]

What’s the verdict on standing vs seated OHP?
Seated definitely tends to feel safer on my neck, standing is where I’ve usually come away with issues in the days following.

Since posting this thread I’ve swapped an exercise for light OHP’s to my chest day to finish it off, and added at the start of my shoulder day heavy pressing as well as reduced volume a bit.

Today’s training went as follows:

1.Seated BB OHP,
-Sets of 6-10 warming up, 2 sets to failure @ 5-6 reps

2.Rear delt machine flyes,
-Sets of 15, adding weight until couldn’t hit 15, ended up being about 3 heavy work sets

3.Lying side delt cable raises
-3 sets of 10-15(failure on last set with an isohold)

4.Arnold press
-2 sets of 10

5. Heavy rear delt partials to failure, stood up and into side delt partials to failure, 1 set

This still look like too much volume?


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[Void]

Have you ever considered the Mountain Dog system you mention so much doesn’t work for YOU?
When I was doing person physical training I didn’t use the sameeverything on everybody.

I’ve probably made it sound like I’m a massive MD fanboy from my few posts on here, which I do love his programs and mentality, but I’m not exclusively sold on everything he puts out. I tend to rotate back to it more frequently than most as, yes, his programs have worked wonders for me with literally every body part except shoulders. That being said I’m not opposed to anything and have even used other coaches, should I find a new style that does me well.


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[Void]

I’ll also say that in the last two shoulder days, starting with OHP has made the workout a shit ton more satisfying. Going into any other exercise my delts actually feel way more focused.


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[mayhem124]

What’s the verdict on standing vs seated OHP?
Seated definitely tends to feel safer on my neck, standing is where I’ve usually come away with issues in the days following.

Since posting this thread I’ve swapped an exercise for light OHP’s to my chest day to finish it off, and added at the start of my shoulder day heavy pressing as well as reduced volume a bit.

Today’s training went as follows:

1.Seated BB OHP,
-Sets of 6-10 warming up, 2 sets to failure @ 5-6 reps

2.Rear delt machine flyes,
-Sets of 15, adding weight until couldn’t hit 15, ended up being about 3 heavy work sets

3.Lying side delt cable raises
-3 sets of 10-15(failure on last set with an isohold)

4.Arnold press
-2 sets of 10

5. Heavy rear delt partials to failure, stood up and into side delt partials to failure, 1 set

This still look like too much volume?


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I prefer standing overhead press for a few reasons.

First, you engage more muscles and core while standing.

Next, for most, you are stronger in the standing position so you'll push more weight, build strength faster.

Last, you can push further in a set and push more weight by doing a set or 2, or the last few reps as a push press if needed.

.......

As for volume, as I said in my very 1st post and others have mentioned as well, I work each muscle group with a heavy day and volume day each week. Rotate back and forth. You'll build strength and get good hypertrophy work in that way.

Finally, 2 heavy sets is not enough IMO. After warm-up, I do 4-5 heavy sets and sometimes a drop set afterwards to burn em out good.

 

[SloppyJ]

Stronger in standing? That has not been my experience. Maybe it's because I have more confidence in a seated BB OHP rack because I have a spotter and he's in a good position to help if shit gets sideways. My heaviest presses have been seated.

 

[RussianMuscle]

Something that worked for me is doing Db laterals twice during my shoulder workout. After warming up I do them as my first exercise with a heavy weight and a little bit of cheating. Then I do them again as my last exceeding with a light weight and strict form.

This form of training seems very effective.


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[Augustine5I]

Stronger in standing? That has not been my experience. Maybe it's because I have more confidence in a seated BB OHP rack because I have a spotter and he's in a good position to help if shit gets sideways. My heaviest presses have been seated.

Have to agree.

So much more core needed in standing. So heavier weights must be sacrificed.

Don’t get me wrong, if someone can overhead press 225 in standing then that’s awesome


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[Void]

Stronger in standing? That has not been my experience. Maybe it's because I have more confidence in a seated BB OHP rack because I have a spotter and he's in a good position to help if shit gets sideways. My heaviest presses have been seated.

Agreed, I’m not “strong” on either but there’s a significant difference between the two. I can usually put at least 145-155 up for a few seated, I’m lucky to put up 135 standing with decent form


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[Bft84]

Have you ever considered the Mountain Dog system you mention so much doesn’t work for YOU?
When I was doing person physical training I didn’t use the sameeverything on everybody.

I’m thinking the same thing. I’ve ran several of Johns programs and everytime I regress. I get weaker and lose muscle. They’re good programs but they don’t work for everyone. I’m not of those people that think all routines work for everyone not even all otherwise good routines.

 

[Milford King]

I think pushups have lead to my shoulders being fairly developed. I don’t do “heavy” shoulder anything really. I exhaust them pretty good on shoulder day.

as far as lifting exercises whilst on your feet vs on your ass I’d say the advantage of standing would be more core engagement and more total body engagement will lead to more calorie burn. I’m not sure the science supports standing lifts to promote any more muscle gains in any specific muscle group tho. I just know when I was playing sports my coaches always emphasized lifting workouts while on my feet are better than those where you’re seated or laying down for functionality. There’s a specific scientific word for it but I can’t remember. I think that athlean x guy did a show about it. You could check that out he seems pretty on point. Jeff something or rather is his name.