Adrenal fatigue

[Smokescreen_666]

Can someone explain to me how more gear (high dose) causes adrenal fatigue. Whats the science behind it all and how can I avoid adrenal fatigue?

 

[exenzero]

adrenal fatigue is not a real phenomenon. the theory you’re referencing is that placing stress on the adrenal glands, through anabolic steroids or any means, would eventually cause a state of fatigue. this theory states that low cortisol could be the cause because the impairment of the adrenal glands are present. this speculated state of fatigue would/could cause depression, cravings, brain fog, etc. however, this is not a real phenomenon. the endocrinology society does not recognize adrenal fatigue as real. in this harvard med article which i’ve been referencing, they reviewed 58 studies and found no link between “adrenal impairment” and that being a cause of fatigue. from the endocrinology society, “no scientific proof exists to support adrenal fatigue as a true medical condition.” i’ve heard of this being supposedly real for a while, but i would hope this enough proof that it isn’t.

maybe @Matt88 or @Vision would have a different opinion. they’re very smart, and i respect them highly, so i’m always happy to hear their input.

 

[Matt88]

adrenal fatigue is not a real phenomenon. the theory you’re referencing is that placing stress on the adrenal glands, through anabolic steroids or any means, would eventually cause a state of fatigue. this theory states that low cortisol could be the cause because the impairment of the adrenal glands are present. this speculated state of fatigue would/could cause depression, cravings, brain fog, etc. however, this is not a real phenomenon. the endocrinology society does not recognize adrenal fatigue as real. in this harvard med article which i’ve been referencing, they reviewed 58 studies and found no link between “adrenal impairment” and that being a cause of fatigue. from the endocrinology society, “no scientific proof exists to support adrenal fatigue as a true medical condition.” i’ve heard of this being supposedly real for a while, but i would hope this enough proof that it isn’t.

maybe @Matt88 or @Vision would have a different opinion. they’re very smart, and i respect them highly, so i’m always happy to hear their input.

Vision definitely knows way more than I do and his knowledge is rooted in experience with PEDs. Mine is rooted in my profession and self teaching. I do not have the PED experience many have here. In fact i would consider my self a PED newb still. I've also been very fortunate to work with and know some of the smartest people I've ever met.

Anyways I definitely agree with what you said here. I've researched it a lot prior to this conversation bc I wondered if I had adrenal fatigue and the most credible sources say it's not real. I would gladly stand corrected if someone presented convincing data. With that being said if....if Vision or another vet rolls in here and says nah man that stuff is real and here is why than I'd also stand corrected bc we got some super smart people here that I'm constantly learning from.

What will happen though on higher gear dosages is all your organs will get stressed. Liver and kidneys being at the top of the list. If those 2 (3) things are stressed they can't perform their jobs properly resulting in someone not feeling "well" after prolonged exposure to said high dosages. Consider what happens with your body when you consume excess alcohol. Your liver puts the other metabolic processes on the back burner and focuses on eliminating your body of said alcohol. Some of us are very prone to anabolics raising out hemoglobin and hematocrit which stresses the body bc your heart has to pump harder to move that "dense" blood through the body. This is all a big reason as to why lab work is so incredibly important.

Obviously hormones are a big contributing factor in how we feel. Estrogen being to low or to high can completely ruin you. Thyroid, prolactin, etc. Hope that was at least a little helpful.

I recently found out i am anemic (my iron is in the gutter) and I can honestly say I've never been more fatigued in my life. If I try and add any compound outside of a moderate dose of testosterone I get more fatigued since my iron got low. It's an interesting learning experience. I mentioned this just to show there are many many things that can make you fatigued and lab work is the only way to know the root cause.

 

[Vision]

Increased dosages with almost any AAS (androgens) can result in a decrease peak of plasma corticosterone concentrations by way of potentially disabling HSD-11B or 11B-HSD which are hosts of enzymes that catalyze the conversion of cortisone to active cortisol.. Almost inducing a state of adrenal fatigue by other methods of action, after an increased dosage injection for "some users" or prolong use it can signification increase circulating levels of both corticosterone and ACTH levels, corticosterone concentrations there after can be low almost like a prolong dump/ and than a smash (crash)..

This can induce adrenal fatigue like symptoms, even just TEST ONLY.. You can experience this while on most AAS "especially" Trenbolone, and even DHB, drol and some pro-hormones (MT1/SD), there can be a slew of rather aggressive sides not only from the toxicity or SOME drugs to the liver but through this other indirect course of action yielding a slew of undesired sides in "some" users....

I would suggest adding some DHEA, Zinc and Boron with some sublingual vitamin b12 complex and take it from there.. Try and cut back on caffeine, in fact I would suggest extracting it from your daily life just for now..

An other suggestions, you may want to add some low to a moderate dose of GHRP-6 and/or Hexarelin, these peptide both act in a similar mechanisms and have been known to increase the release of ACTH which can improve the serum plasma levels with cortisol, restoring it to a health functional state from AAS related sides that may be present by way of adrenal fatigue like symptoms after long cycles or a spike in dosages..

 

[Vision]

BTW... This is just answering a hypothetical question if some one is in FACT 100% experiencing adrenal fatigue, bear in mind. There is simple to many factors at play to just assume that this is what's taking place..
We are all independent personal science experiments at the end of the day, here we share our anecdotes, experiences, similarities and other related instances to help each other come up with possible solutions.
Getting bloods would be the only real way to have a definitive answer, yet I'm not talking just fasted AM bloods, I'm talking in house, bloods pulled throughout the day, because our hormonal expressions are rapidly changing throughout the course of the day. A 24hr urine test could also give some guesstimation on what could be taking place with a said individual..

 

[Vision]

Always keep in mind people, when we increase doses, and levels, endogenous hormonal secretion's, and other chemical messengers will also increase also.. People experience this during a cycle a lot of times it could be related to adrenal fatigue like symptoms.
Also, there could be an in balance with the serotonin and dopamine levels, it doesn't necessarily mean dopamine levels could be low but rather dopamine receptors are non-responsive, downregulated so to speak.. everything stated above is merely speculation without blood work or knowing your history.

Adding 5-HTP with low dose DHEA this can improve neuro secretions and improve your sense of well-being.. Again, cut back on any stims if taking any - pre-workout or other major stimulants because this can down-regulate your dopamine receptors. So can DHB...

The user mentioned to me that he is using DHB.. Well, and most likely test too..

The paradox with using multiple hormones mentioned (test,DHB and who knows what else) they are essentially the most favored when it concerns that "feel good effect" that we look for when running compounds, now at this moment each one contradicts what you're attempting to achieve (feel good and grow)..

Let's look at your supra-physiological dosages of Testosterone (which has 3 mechanisms of action,1-testosterone, 2-conversion to estro, 3-conversion to DHT) and your other compound DHB..

Basically, your reaction with these compounds/hormones by way of exogenous sources along with their aggressiveness as a potent hormone (DHT) and interplay's with E2 (by was of test conversion) all these can significantly decrease the corticosterone and ACTH response through its pathways, by initiating a response via the hypothalamus..

I'll include a study that explains more on how Dihydrotestosterone and it's derivative can potentially display some cross-reactivity that will disrupted corticolsteroids which may possess blocking properties of cortisol..

In a nut shell, DHT's could possibly act somewhat as a cortisol "blocker" in sensitive users.. End result, adrenal fatigue like symptoms!

Just my take, I'm no specialist.. I'm just looking at things from a different approach, it may not be the most popular belief, but it's a start for answers.. Anyone else?
_________________________

J Neurosci. 2006 Feb 1;26(5):1448-56.
The androgen 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and its metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3beta, 17beta-diol inhibit the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal response to stress by acting through estrogen receptor beta-expressing neurons in the hypothalamus.

Lund TD1, Hinds LR, Handa RJ.
Author information

Abstract

Estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta) and androgen receptor (AR) are found in high levels within populations of neurons in the hypothalamus. To determine whether AR or ERbeta plays a role in regulating hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis function by direct action on these neurons, we examined the effects of central implants of 17beta-estradiol (E2), 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the DHT metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3beta, 17beta-diol (3beta-diol), and several ER subtype-selective agonists on the corticosterone and adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) response to immobilization stress. In addition, activation of neurons in the paraventricular nucleus (PVN) was monitored by examining c-fos mRNA expression. Pellets containing these compounds were stereotaxically implanted near the PVN of gonadectomized male rats. Seven days later, animals were killed directly from their home cage (nonstressed) or were restrained for 30 min (stressed) before they were killed. Compared with controls, E2 and the ERalpha-selective agonists moxestrol and propyl-pyrazole-triol significantly increased the stress induced release of corticosterone and ACTH. In contrast, central administration of DHT, 3beta-diol, and the ERbeta-selective compound diarylpropionitrile significantly decreased the corticosterone and ACTH response to immobilization. Cotreatment with the ER antagonist tamoxifen completely blocked the effects of 3beta-diol and partially blocked the effect of DHT, whereas the AR antagonist flutamide had no effect. Moreover, DHT, 3beta-diol, and diarylpropionitrile treatment significantly decreased restraint-induced c-fos mRNA expression in the PVN. Together, these studies indicate that the inhibitory effects of DHT on HPA axis activity may be in part mediated via its conversion to 3beta-diol and subsequent binding to ERbeta.

 

[Matt88]

Increased dosages with almost any AAS (androgens) can result in a decrease peak of plasma corticosterone concentrations by way of potentially disabling HSD-11B or 11B-HSD which are hosts of enzymes that catalyze the conversion of cortisone to active cortisol.. Almost inducing a state of adrenal fatigue by other methods of action, after an increased dosage injection for "some users" or prolong use it can signification increase circulating levels of both corticosterone and ACTH levels, corticosterone concentrations there after can be low almost like a prolong dump/ and than a smash (crash)..

This can induce adrenal fatigue like symptoms, even just TEST ONLY.. You can experience this while on most AAS "especially" Trenbolone, and even DHB, drol and some pro-hormones (MT1/SD), there can be a slew of rather aggressive sides not only from the toxicity or SOME drugs to the liver but through this other indirect course of action yielding a slew of undesired sides in "some" users....

I would suggest adding some DHEA, Zinc and Boron with some sublingual vitamin b12 complex and take it from there.. Try and cut back on caffeine, in fact I would suggest extracting it from your daily life just for now..

An other suggestions, you may want to add some low to a moderate dose of GHRP-6 and/or Hexarelin, these peptide both act in a similar mechanisms and have been known to increase the release of ACTH which can improve the serum plasma levels with cortisol, restoring it to a health functional state from AAS related sides that may be present by way of adrenal fatigue like symptoms after long cycles or a spike in dosages..

Can you suggest a GHRP-6 dosage for this please? Considering 100mcg x 3 a day. Some information I read online stated the possibility of needing a higher dose to stimulate acth but I can't find much in the way of dosage suggestions beyond the 100mcg 2-3x a day.

My ACTH was 12 and the lab i used reference range is 6-50. So, in range but on the lower end. I have ghrp-6 on the way from AA. I know it might not help given I'm "in range" but I want to try it bc i am trying essentially anything I can find that isn't dangerous.

 

[Vision]

Can you suggest a GHRP-6 dosage for this please? Considering 100mcg x 3 a day. Some information I read online stated the possibility of needing a higher dose to stimulate acth but I can't find much in the way of dosage suggestions beyond the 100mcg 2-3x a day.

My ACTH was 12 and the lab i used reference range is 6-50. So, in range but on the lower end. I have ghrp-6 on the way from AA. I know it might not help given I'm "in range" but I want to try it bc i am trying essentially anything I can find that isn't dangerous.

Hey brother that dosage right there is actually perfect, when you start to go any more than that, that means you're going to start having blunted effects and it's not going to work. You have to keep in mind you can go hypo real quick, and it can be very very uncomfortable.
100 is actually a very safe and effective dosage.
It's not meant to be long-term, 4 weeks max, then take a break, let the Rec relax, and all of the other secretions normalize.
Try starting off with 5-HTP and gaba and see if this improves your levels, you can even use that in conjunction with the dosages you have above.

 

[Matt88]

Hey brother that dosage right there is actually perfect, when you start to go any more than that, that means you're going to start having blunted effects and it's not going to work. You have to keep in mind you can go hypo real quick, and it can be very very uncomfortable.
100 is actually a very safe and effective dosage.
It's not meant to be long-term, 4 weeks max, then take a break, let the Rec relax, and all of the other secretions normalize.
Try starting off with 5-HTP and gaba and see if this improves your levels, you can even use that in conjunction with the dosages you have above.

Perfect. Thank you! I have been taking gaba for around a month and let me tell you and I say this with 100% certainty. Gaba has helped my anxiety more than any prescription drug my doc has ever tried me on. Very noticeable and very quick results for me with 1 750mg capsule!

5-htp on the other hand amps up my anxiety like throwing gas on a fire so I haven't stuck with that one. DHEA 25-50mg does the same thing to me that 5-htp does. My dhea is low at 118ng/dl. Dhea-s is 93mcg/dl.

I have started hcg since the lab work (labs was drawn on the 12th) as well. I've also dropped proviron (makes me sad). E2 was only 6. Only AI exposure within 30 days was 12.5mg aromasin 5 days prior.

Thanks for the quick reply my friend!!

Edit to correct dhea-s value to 93mcg/dl.

 

[Matt88]

Additional detail: I've been off the SSRI I was on for 2 months. The gaba has been a God send. I tried it bc I saw you (Vision) talk about it. So thanks for that!!

 

[Matt88]

@Vision or anyone who is familiar with ghrp + hgh together. I'm taking 2-3iu hgh per day which i started within the past 2 weeks. Is there any reason why I should discontinue the hgh with adding ghrp-6 for acth stimulation?

Any thing specific such as dosage timing of each, ok to take together etc? I can't find any data to make me think that hgh will prevent ghrp from stimulating acth but I wanted to bounce it off of you.

This is of the utmost priority to me since the fatigue has essentially ruined my quality of life.

Thank you

P.S. I added 5-htp last night and taking it with gaba seems to keep the anxiety down that 5-htp otherwise caused. Taking 25mg dhea as well PM.

 

[Vision]

@Vision or anyone who is familiar with ghrp + hgh together. I'm taking 2-3iu hgh per day which i started within the past 2 weeks. Is there any reason why I should discontinue the hgh with adding ghrp-6 for acth stimulation?

Any thing specific such as dosage timing of each, ok to take together etc? I can't find any data to make me think that hgh will prevent ghrp from stimulating acth but I wanted to bounce it off of you.

This is of the utmost priority to me since the fatigue has essentially ruined my quality of life.

Thank you

P.S. I added 5-htp last night and taking it with gaba seems to keep the anxiety down that 5-htp otherwise caused. Taking 25mg dhea as well PM.

I would hold off on running GHRP6 with your HGH. This can really send your blood sugar haywire, and this can also speed up insulin resistance. Using peptides that stimulate GH release, are ordinarily better when coming off of HGH this way it can help stimulate the natural production.
But this combination right here, you may feel very lethargic, overly tired, and an uncensorable desire for food. And that alone is not necessarily a good thing all the time. If you're feeling tired, sluggish, fatigue and yet your stomach feels bottomless, that can go down a bad road.

My suggestion, with the three supplements that you just added at the end, stick with them they are extremely underrated. Save the GHRP6 for another day. 5 HTP, gaba and DHEA are extremely effective together.

In lieu of throwing the entire kitchen sink at your adrenal system, see how you respond with what you have going on.

With everything added it'll be hard to make your judgments and know what's working for you and what's not working for you.
And I'm serious you may end up feeling like garbage adding the GHRP6.

 

[Matt88]

I would hold off on running GHRP6 with your HGH. This can really send your blood sugar haywire, and this can also speed up insulin resistance. Using peptides that stimulate GH release, are ordinarily better when coming off of HGH this way it can help stimulate the natural production.
But this combination right here, you may feel very lethargic, overly tired, and an uncensorable desire for food. And that alone is not necessarily a good thing all the time. If you're feeling tired, sluggish, fatigue and yet your stomach feels bottomless, that can go down a bad road.

My suggestion, with the three supplements that you just added at the end, stick with them they are extremely underrated. Save the GHRP6 for another day. 5 HTP, gaba and DHEA are extremely effective together.

In lieu of throwing the entire kitchen sink at your adrenal system, see how you respond with what you have going on.

With everything added it'll be hard to make your judgments and know what's working for you and what's not working for you.
And I'm serious you may end up feeling like garbage adding the GHRP6.

Thank you sir. I will definitely run one at a time (hgh/ghrp). I definitely don't want any part of the sides u mentioned. I already have the severe fatigue and lethergy so the possibility of perhaps making that worse would be me not even being able to get out of bed and go work my 2 jobs. So, no room for that intensifing.

Makes me wonder if I'd be better off stopping hgh and running ghrp-6 instead if ghrp is going to potentially do more for acth I am really enjoying the hgh though and it's helping me sleep much deeper. My alarm will go off now and I wake up in that state of umm what day is it, am in my own bed, is this earth? Been a LONG time since I've slept that deep.

Much love sir.

 

[Vision]

Thank you sir. I will definitely run one at a time (hgh/ghrp). I definitely don't want any part of the sides u mentioned. I already have the severe fatigue and lethergy so the possibility of perhaps making that worse would be me not even being able to get out of bed and go work my 2 jobs. So, no room for that intensifing.

Makes me wonder if I'd be better off stopping hgh and running ghrp-6 instead if ghrp is going to potentially do more for acth I am really enjoying the hgh though and it's helping me sleep much deeper. My alarm will go off now and I wake up in that state of umm what day is it, am in my own bed, is this earth? Been a LONG time since I've slept that deep.

Much love sir.

When are you scheduling your HGH? If you're doing your HGH first thing in the morning or anytime during the day pre or post, try doing it before bed.
You'll get some nice deep sleep, it may take a few days for your body to get used to its effect, but I swear on HGH before bed.
When I sleep, I use melatonin, gaba and HGH, well basically I use the sleep and grow it has all of that in it. It also has the five HTP. And brother I sleep like I've been in a coma for 5 years..
If you want good HGH bleeds multiple times throughout the day, CJC 1295 with dac is the way to go, it lasts a lot longer an ejection frequency could be anywhere from 3 to 7 days, and you get multiple multiple multiple HGH bleeds.
The pulse is not as strong as it would be from regular HGH, but you get numerous bleeds throughout your whole day.
In my opinion CJC in many aspects is far more superior than HGH.

 

[Matt88]

When are you scheduling your HGH? If you're doing your HGH first thing in the morning or anytime during the day pre or post, try doing it before bed.
You'll get some nice deep sleep, it may take a few days for your body to get used to its effect, but I swear on HGH before bed.
When I sleep, I use melatonin, gaba and HGH, well basically I use the sleep and grow it has all of that in it. It also has the five HTP. And brother I sleep like I've been in a coma for 5 years..
If you want good HGH bleeds multiple times throughout the day, CJC 1295 with dac is the way to go, it lasts a lot longer an ejection frequency could be anywhere from 3 to 7 days, and you get multiple multiple multiple HGH bleeds.
The pulse is not as strong as it would be from regular HGH, but you get numerous bleeds throughout your whole day.
In my opinion CJC in many aspects is far more superior than HGH.

I'm doing my hgh before bed currently. As long as I continue to tolerate 5-htp well I'm definitely going to grab some dream and grow. I'd love to get away from the 5-10mg of ambien. I've been always taking 5mg and as a last resort I'll take the other 5mg (10mg tabs). I hate ambien. I tolerate it well as in I don't do any dumb shit on it but the morning groggy feeling is brutal on early work days.

Will definitely look into CJC for a future run

My priority first and foremost is to get my adrenals back to normal but if I'm getting better sleep that is obviously going to be a positive contribution to that.

Thank you.

 

[Vision]

I'm doing my hgh before bed currently. As long as I continue to tolerate 5-htp well I'm definitely going to grab some dream and grow. I'd love to get away from the 5-10mg of ambien. I've been always taking 5mg and as a last resort I'll take the other 5mg (10mg tabs). I hate ambien. I tolerate it well as in I don't do any dumb shit on it but the morning groggy feeling is brutal on early work days.

Will definitely look into CJC for a future run

My priority first and foremost is to get my adrenals back to normal but if I'm getting better sleep that is obviously going to be a positive contribution to that.

Thank you.

Just by chance are you taking any stimulants, any pre-workouts, are you taking anything that has any stimulatory effects, caffeine black coffee, Red bulls everything and anything under the sun with that spectrum? If you are completely bail on all caffeine at the moment.
This is going to significantly reduce any adrenal fatigue.
If you're doing your HGH before bed, the GHRP6 may not have any interactions after all if you're doing it during the daytime, because the timing is so far apart.
Start off with one or two dosages and go from there and see how you feel.

 

[Matt88]

Just by chance are you taking any stimulants, any pre-workouts, are you taking anything that has any stimulatory effects, caffeine black coffee, Red bulls everything and anything under the sun with that spectrum? If you are completely bail on all caffeine at the moment.
This is going to significantly reduce any adrenal fatigue.
If you're doing your HGH before bed, the GHRP6 may not have any interactions after all if you're doing it during the daytime, because the timing is so far apart.
Start off with one or two dosages and go from there and see how you feel.

Thank you for yet even more great information!

I have significantly decreased my caffeine intake down from what it was but I'm still taking in between 150mg-300mg of caffeine per day. That amount has been for around the past 2-3 wks. Before that it was in the 300-600 range and a few months before that in the 600-900mg range. I'll work on eliminating it entirely. My goal has been to eliminate it entirely but it's been a slow process as you can see from the above info. Its been next to impossible to go without any caffeine in the mornings before I drive for work in the sense of it not being safe bc I can't function but if there is a will there is a way so I'll keep lowering that and do my very best to get rid of it. Then during 12 or 16 hour work shifts I've been using Modifinal (works very well with out bad caffeine side effects) prn and occasionally caffeine to be alert enough to safely do my job (Healthcare related). I've came this far with reducing it. I can go all the way with eliminating it. it is just going to take a lot of will power.

Good call on the ghrp AM/during the day and hgh at night. Before I saw your response I was thinking I wanted to finish this vial of hgh so it doesn't go bad b4 I use it prior to making the transition to ghrp.

Merry Christmas sir. Words can't express how grateful I am for your help!!