Is there a such thing as a non responder to testosterone ?

[Tattooguy8]

47 years old and been lifting five days a week for over 15 years. Five or six years ago I tested low for test. Only real symptom I had was low energy and drive, dick worked just fine.

I was 230 if I remember right so I started doctor supervised trt. Obvious they had no clue what they were doing so I felt like poo most of the time. After three months of that nonsense I sourced my own test and started my own attempt at trt. Still felt worse than before I started.

Tried high estrogen, low estrogen, I tried ai and no ai. I even tried my first blast at 400 test cyp a week. During blast my blood was just under 3000 so I know my stuff was legit. Was getting blood tests every six weeks as I experimented.

Had my trt dose pretty dialed as well. I think I was taking 120 test cyp split into 60 twice a week. If I remember right test was 880-890 and estrogen was in the 30’s.

Didn’t gain any size or strength in the gym, all I got were sides and anxiety. The craziest part is I did a pct to come off and felt better within just a few days. Did the standard hcg then clomid and nolvadex. Literally felt better withing a few days of taking hcg, I know most people feel worse coming off after a year. Now five years recovered my natural test is mid 400’s. Wtf!

Sorry about the long story but I haven’t messed with it since and I really want to. Anyone have any advice or ever heard of anything like this?

Thanks

 

[Bigtoe]

Welcome to the forum!

Yes there are non responders to test. From what I remember its more to much responding in the brain functions making you feel like crap. Sleep off ... dopamine off...everything off causing no real gains. My guess is if you try it again the same is going to happen. Someone else might have more of an idea but thats my guess.

If it were me I would still try again but add proviron for the moods. For me my best combo for feeling my best mentally and confident is running test/mast/proviron. Do you have a full panel now of all your baselines clean at the moment? Do you feel great with these levels if you do?

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[MrWhisper]

Yeah idk if I would risk it but just think of what do you have to lose I guess. I know a lot of guys who do really well on just Enclomiphene. Maybe that is your best option for you?

You can try the Mast and/or Proviron route with Test if you like. Like I said what do you got to lose except you may not be able to get back to 400ng/dl when you come off like you did before. That’s the risk really.

Good luck man!

 

[Tattooguy8]

Welcome to the forum!

Yes there are non responders to test. From what I remember its more to much responding in the brain functions making you feel like crap. Sleep off ... dopamine off...everything off causing no real gains. My guess is if you try it again the same is going to happen. Someone else might have more of an idea but thats my guess.

If it were me I would still try again but add proviron for the moods. For me my best combo for feeling my best mentally and confident is running test/mast/proviron. Do you have a full panel now of all your baselines clean at the moment? Do you feel great with these levels if you do?

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I just got a full blood panel. I’ll try to post it here. Only thing out of range is cholesterol. I definitely don’t feel awesome. Low in energy and drive so I don’t really know what going on.

I was really suprised how hcg had me feeling normal again right away. Something g about being shut down my body doesn’t like. I’ve read the testicles produce nurosteroids and those get shut down as well.

 

[Tattooguy8]

Welcome to the forum!

Yes there are non responders to test. From what I remember its more to much responding in the brain functions making you feel like crap. Sleep off ... dopamine off...everything off causing no real gains. My guess is if you try it again the same is going to happen. Someone else might have more of an idea but thats my guess.

If it were me I would still try again but add proviron for the moods. For me my best combo for feeling my best mentally and confident is running test/mast/proviron. Do you have a full panel now of all your baselines clean at the moment? Do you feel great with these levels if you do?

Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Big_Jimmy434]

I had this same thing happen. Numbers were sub-200. Started TRT at 100mg, felt ok-ish. Bumped to 150mg, felt worse. Got to 200mg and Hello baby. I actually felt worse at 800 test level than I did with sub-200 levels. When I run around levels 1050-1100 on TRT, I feel like super man. It was like some kinda wierd dead spot for me.

 

[Glycomann]

The endocrine system is much more complex than we want to realize. Testosterone converts to hundreds of intermediates and other various steroids all of which have some activity. Those of us that can take a gram of it and feel great is somewhat of a miracle of the body that it can balance things out. I can't give you an answer to your dilemma. Maybe try other pathways to enhance your well being. Or maybe the first place to start is to absolutely tighten up your diet to your particular body by process of elimination and substitution. Pretty much everyone that does that sees a massive improvement in performance AAS or no AAS.

 

[elit3keraed]

So a few things OP.
What’s your shbg and free Test levels?
If your free T sucks you’re not going to notice as much as you would.


Lastly what’s your 5-hydroxy-vitamin D levels?


I ask this because for a long time I figured I was a “non responder”. I always felt like I did with low T even when I had T in the 500+ range.

The one major change I made this year (and noticed a difference) was when my doc tested vitamin D levels and found I was at 20 when minimum should be 30. Daily d3 with k2 and magnesium now has me firmly at 50. I feel so much better. Mentally AND physically. Suddenly I notice the “test benefits” like improved mood and that “on” feeling. Anxiety is gone, depression is gone, none of the typical sides that I get from higher t level are present. It was like a light switch.

MAYBE it’s something else off in the body and not that you’re a “non responder”

 

[lottalead]

i read something a couple years ago when i first started trt and it seemed to not work. sleep issues (which i had) either high or low cortizone levels i will search it again but i am sure there are a ton of guys here with knowledge to help

 

[Halfi]

Welcome to the forum!

Yes there are non responders to test. From what I remember its more to much responding in the brain functions making you feel like crap. Sleep off ... dopamine off...everything off causing no real gains. My guess is if you try it again the same is going to happen. Someone else might have more of an idea but thats my guess.

If it were me I would still try again but add proviron for the moods. For me my best combo for feeling my best mentally and confident is running test/mast/proviron. Do you have a full panel now of all your baselines clean at the moment? Do you feel great with these levels if you do?

Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

I too feel best on test and mast. Without the mast I have 0 sex drive and practically no dopamine . Doesn’t matter what dose I’m on either if I’m just using test for TRT. Or just test for a cycle I feel the same without the mast in there. It doesn’t effect my sleep but man, not having a sec drive and no dopamine kills me.

 

[Tattooguy8]

I too feel best on test and mast. Without the mast I have 0 sex drive and practically no dopamine . Doesn’t matter what dose I’m on either if I’m just using test for TRT. Or just test for a cycle I feel the same without the mast in there. It doesn’t effect my sleep but man, not having a sec drive and no dopamine kills me.

I need to find some mast. I feel like I need to experiment with another compound to see if I respond. I’ve always been afraid of trying to get another compound and it’s fake though. Heard that happens a lot.

 

[Halfi]

there are plenty of killer sponsors here man. I have used azteca gold, and SB labs mast and there fire. I have some marathon mast in my stash but , but I havent used it yet but I know for a fact it’s good to go. That would be my recomendations if ur ganna try to use some, just from my personal experience of using those company’s. There are plenty of other good ones here. Those are just the ones I have personally used

 

[Bigtoe]

I doubt you have them by any chance you have any of your old labs from when you were on trt? I can pull mine up from years ago through my chart or quest etc etc. Might give a better picture of what was going on.

You can be our ASF guinea pig. We just keep throwing shit in you like most doctors do today. Lol

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[Halfi]

I doubt you have them by any chance you have any of your old labs from when you were on trt? I can pull mine up from years ago through my chart or quest etc etc. Might give a better picture of what was going on.

You can be our ASF guinea pig. We just keep throwing shit in you like most doctors do today. Lol

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Sprinkle of anavar. Couple IU of GH. Some mastron. Micro dose of Tren.

 

[Tattooguy8]

I doubt you have them by any chance you have any of your old labs from when you were on trt? I can pull mine up from years ago through my chart or quest etc etc. Might give a better picture of what was going on.

You can be our ASF guinea pig. We just keep throwing shit in you like most doctors do today. Lol

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I’ll try to find them through private md labs. I do remember them saying my shbg was always high and free test was low. Other than that nothing was ever really out of whack.

 

[Tattooguy8]

I too feel best on test and mast. Without the mast I have 0 sex drive and practically no dopamine . Doesn’t matter what dose I’m on either if I’m just using test for TRT. Or just test for a cycle I feel the same without the mast in there. It doesn’t effect my sleep but man, not having a sec drive and no dopamine kills me.

What ratio of test to mast do you like?

 

[Halfi]

What ratio of test to mast do you like?

1to1 for my self.

 

[Cypher]

I had this same thing happen. Numbers were sub-200. Started TRT at 100mg, felt ok-ish. Bumped to 150mg, felt worse. Got to 200mg and Hello baby. I actually felt worse at 800 test level than I did with sub-200 levels. When I run around levels 1050-1100 on TRT, I feel like super man. It was like some kinda wierd dead spot for me.

I remember Dave Lee talking about this a while back. He mentioned that when he goes above 200 mg per week, all of his markers improve and he personally felt better and his bloodwork improved greater (even his Hct/Hgb). If I’m not mistaken, this came up on Dave Tate’s podcast.

Another issue, in my view, is with lower doses unless you’re a hyper responder. There’s this idea that you should aim to stay within a natural range as if your body were still producing testosterone optimally. But that’s not really the case, you’re introducing an exogenous hormone, so while the theory of mimicking natural levels sounds good, it doesn’t always play out that way in practice. It seems like for symptom resolution you may actually need to push past that 1000 level.

Just my perspective.

 

[Cypher]

Literally felt better withing a few days of taking hcg

That HCG response is the biggest clue.

If you felt better within days, it likely means you do better with your own system active. HCG mimics LH and stimulates the whole steroid cascade, not just testosterone, which TRT alone doesn’t replicate... a lot of downstream stuff happens as well via StAR and cAMP pathways.

Doesn’t really point to SHBG or CAG repeats. More likely you just don’t feel good being fully suppressed.

If you try again, a protocol including HCG would make more sense than TRT alone.

 

[Bigtoe]

That HCG response is the biggest clue.

If you felt better within days, it likely means you do better with your own system active. HCG mimics LH and stimulates the whole steroid cascade, not just testosterone, which TRT alone doesn’t replicate... a lot of downstream stuff happens as well via StAR and cAMP pathways.

Doesn’t really point to SHBG or CAG repeats. More likely you just don’t feel good being fully suppressed.

If you try again, a protocol including HCG would make more sense than TRT alone.

Thats an excellent plan. I dont know why i didnt think of that. Never ran HCG along with test. That will be interesting to see how it treats me. I have been on some amount of test now for a decade. Will see if I can bring my little rabbit balls back around.

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[EttCurls]

Welcome to the forum!

Yes there are non responders to test. From what I remember its more to much responding in the brain functions making you feel like crap. Sleep off ... dopamine off...everything off causing no real gains. My guess is if you try it again the same is going to happen. Someone else might have more of an idea but thats my guess.

If it were me I would still try again but add proviron for the moods. For me my best combo for feeling my best mentally and confident is running test/mast/proviron. Do you have a full panel now of all your baselines clean at the moment? Do you feel great with these levels if you do?

Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

I second the proviron motion!!! My understanding is that it was initially marketed as an anti depressant. Take that with a grain of salt because I don’t recall where I read it! If I grasp how it works it basically makes more if your free floating abs shbg convert into available T! Might be perfect for someone with high test still struggling with low test symptoms! You could consider masternon too but anicdotaly proviron has been better for me in the past. Anadrol has made me feel like a god if the gym and bedroom!!! It’s pretty toxic though so deff limit duration and use it when you are really pushing at the gym!!!

 

[GYMnTONIC]

It means you werent eating.

Easey peasey.

Can't gain muscle minus jacking up calz.

Ur not a non responder if u hit 3k nano. You're not eating enough and blaming hormones on your lack of discipline .

Eating is the hardest part.

 

[zwhit]

I’ll try to find them through private md labs. I do remember them saying my shbg was always high and free test was low. Other than that nothing was ever really out of whack.

Bingo. I'd be willing to bet that's a lot of the problem with maybe something else being off

 

[celrin321]

To be honest I have never heard of a "non-responder". There is obviously an incredible range in the magnitude of response (some guys absolutely blow the fuck up and leave humanity behind on their first cycle and others push grams just to get 18 inch arms), but there is always atleast some response.

 

[Tattooguy8]

That HCG response is the biggest clue.

If you felt better within days, it likely means you do better with your own system active. HCG mimics LH and stimulates the whole steroid cascade, not just testosterone, which TRT alone doesn’t replicate... a lot of downstream stuff happens as well via StAR and cAMP pathways.

Doesn’t really point to SHBG or CAG repeats. More likely you just don’t feel good being fully suppressed.

If you try again, a protocol including HCG would make more sense than TRT alone.

My next go around is gonna be with a low dose of hcg at the same time. In pct I was taking 250 twice a week if I remember right. I’ll probably microdose it this time though along with the test.

 

[Bigtoe]

I have a vintage, over 50 year old, dickameter that usually tells me somethings off that I try to use daily as a gauge. I dont lend it out but my wife will occasionally lend it out to strangers just not friends. Think she is worried some of her friends might not give it back.

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[Tattooguy8]

To be honest I have never heard of a "non-responder". There is obviously an incredible range in the magnitude of response (some guys absolutely blow the fuck up and leave humanity behind on their first cycle and others push grams just to get 18 inch arms), but there is always atleast some response.

For me it’s only negative. Scale didn’t move, not one of my lifts went up at all. Didn’t even gain water weight when my estrogen was high. Anxiety, high blood pressure and sexual dysfunction that I’ve never had. Started hcg and all my sides went away. Literally in just a few days. Crazy shit.

 

[Tattooguy8]

It means you werent eating.

Easey peasey.

Can't gain muscle minus jacking up calz.

Ur not a non responder if u hit 3k nano. You're not eating enough and blaming hormones on your lack of discipline .

Eating is the hardest part.

I will admit my diet wasn’t completely dialed in at that time but that’s just utter nonsense! I know how to gain and loose weight. I have a very hard time gaining lean muscle mass but I’ve been doing bulking and cutting cycles for a very long time. It wasn’t just blast that made me feel shitty. Felt terrible when test was at 800. Within days of starting hcg I felt immediate relief.

It gets old listening to people with great genetics tell people with poor genetics they aren’t lifting right. Or you aren’t eating right.

Now I’m not saying just because someone has killer muscle building genetics that they don’t work hard as fuck. I personally know people who half ass most everything even just on trt and they get amazing results.

I definitely didn’t expect hormones to fill in the gaps in my short comings but I got nothing. Not even one pound gained.

 

[Tattooguy8]

Bingo. I'd be willing to bet that's a lot of the problem with maybe something else being off

What causes shgb to be high and free test to be low? Is it purely genetic or an underlying health issue. Any time I get a blood test for anything over the years the only thing ever out of range is cholesterol

 

[Tattooguy8]

1to1 for my self.

I thought that could lower estrogen too much? I’m still learning but I thought the ratio should be 1-2 or something like that? With that being said all our bodies are very different obviously