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Gyno help

bigmills

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SB Labs
I'm currently running 650 mg of test e along with 600 mg of EQ, and 100 mg anavar. I'm also running 12mg aromasin and I also was taken 20 mg of Nolvadex, for about 2 weeks I just ran out and should have more Monday or Tuesday. Anyway my question is I'm getting a little gyno behind my left nipple which I always get whenever I run a cycle, but I would have thought that running that 12 mg of aromasin along with the novel that would have stopped it, but obviously it hasn't worked. Can anyone suggest any other ideas that might help the situation? I appreciate any advice in advance..

from BM
 
I would suggest bloodwork, and then upping the dose of ai maybe even get some letro for emergencys such as this. I'm still pretty new to this so I would go by someone more experienced and there recommendations.
 
Was the nolva everyday (I find it best to split the dose ed as well) along with the aromasin (its generally 12.5 ed or 25mg EOD). You are likely having some estrogen rebound from the sudden stop of both compounds. I find tapering my nolva from 20mg to 10mg ed helps prevent excess rebound. The best advice is going to be blood work. If thats not an option I'd hit 25mg of asin EOD and possibly 40mg nolva ed split in two if you have a decent sized gyno lump. Halve the nolva dose as soon you see a reduction in its size and maintain the 20mg split dose ed to eliminate and furthur prevent it. Having a very potent ai on hand for these situations is preferable, especially if you know your prone to gyno.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 
Get bloods to see what your E2 levels are at. You may need to use a different AI (everyone is different). Maybe try 25mg eod or 25mg ed but thats overkill. Have letro on hand for emergency cases like stated above.



Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
 
if youre already feeling lumps, take 1mg of arimidex everyday or if you dont have it at least 50mg aromasin....aromasin is very weak and to kill your Estrogen just with aromasin is almost impossible...
 
if youre already feeling lumps, take 1mg of arimidex everyday or if you dont have it at least 50mg aromasin....aromasin is very weak and to kill your Estrogen just with aromasin is almost impossible...
I moved my aromasin up to 25 mg a day and 25 mg of nolvadex and it has subsided quite a bit to the point to where I really can't even feel it anymore.
I thought aromasin killed more estrogen than Arimidex? I have both do u think i should switch to the Arimidex, but keep the 25 mg of nolvadex?

from BM
 
arimidex is stronger than aromasin. strongest is letrozole.

i would run 10-20mg nolva to protect yourself from breaking out again. and aromasin 12.5mg everyday.. if you feel some breast-tissue again, take 25-50mg aromasin daily until you cant feel it anymore...
 
Asin is a suicide inhibitor, let's clarify!
ROMASIN – Exemestane

Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor

Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. It averages 90% rate of estrogen suppression, which equals a reduction in estradiol levels of about 50%, as well as significantly raising testosterone .(up to 60%)

Aromasin not only increases testosterone and lowers estrogen, but it also increases levels of insulin -like growth Factor (IGF). And Aromasin is not too harsh on lipid panel (cholesterol), unlike some of the other AIs’ like Letrozole .(Femara) Aromasin reaches steady blood plasma levels of after a week of administration, and this is also when we see it begin its maximal effect on reducing circulating estrogen levels. It has a terminal half life of 9 hours in MEN, so taking it once per day will build up blood plasma levels to a very effective level.

Also, there have been some additional researches related to Aromasin in men in pharmacokinetics. The results of the research are the following:

24 hours after one 25mg dose, estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%;

72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below the baseline;

120 hours after initial dose, estrogen levels return to baseline.

Additionally, the University of Florida conducted a study in healthy young men:

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males.

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977

To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg Aromasin daily, orally, for 10 days with a 14 day washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 hours after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed using a 25mg dose. Aromasin suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38%; 50 mg, 32%], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; for both).

The following observations were made:

Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment.The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption.Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h.The drug was well tolerated.The terminal half-life was 8.9 hours in the male subjects.

In conclusion, Aromasin (Exemestane) is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.

References and Supporting Data:

A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clinical Pharmacology. 2005 Mar, 59(3):355-64.

Eur. J. Cancer. 2000, May;36(8):976-82

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S

Anticancer Res. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):3485

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ARIMIDEX - Anastrozole

Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor

Arimidex binds reversibly to the aromatase enzyme through competitive inhibition. This suppresses the conversion of androgens into estrogen. Circulating plasma estrogen can be reduced by nearly 85% in women using Arimidex. A common misconception is that aromatase inhibition is similar in men and women. However in trials when males were administered 1mg of Arimidex daily, circulating estrogen was only reduced by about 50%. Anastrozole is rapidly absorbed orally (time to reach maximum concentration, 1 hour) with a slow apparent clearance of 1.54 liters/h and a terminal half-life of 46.8 h.

But unlike Aromasin, once you stop taking Arimidex, the aromatase enzyme is free to convert androgens (testosterone) into estrogen again. This is referred to as estrogen rebound.

Estrogen has been measured as much as 7 times higher than normal in men on steroids . This is excessive and can potentially cause water retention, gynecomastia or benign prostatic hyperplasia. Therefore, in order to avoid these side effects, estrogen must be controlled. Reduction in breast area and breast volume have been observed in young men treated for 6 months with Arimidex (1 mg daily). These subjects had recent pre-existing gynecomastia (less than one year). However boys with longstanding gynecomastia (more than one year) were unresponsive to 6 months of Arimidex treatment, possibly due to development of dense breast fibrosis. Therefore using Arimidex to treat recent gynecomastia is supported by the data.

From all the data available, 0.25-.50mg of Arimidex every other day is a good starting point on moderate doses of testosterone. If testosterone doses are raised, then an increase may be needed to control estrogen. Since either high and low estrogen can cause side effects, such as low libido, only labs can determine the appropriate dose of Arimidex. Arimidex not only lowers circulating estrogen but it also increases LH and FSH concentrations in addition to increasing testosterone by about 58% in men. In one study elderly men with mild hypogonadism were administered 1mg daily of Arimidex for 12 weeks. This treatment normalized serum testosterone levels in those men without adversely affecting lipids, precursors of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance. Please see excerpt from ATAC study below.

“Clinical Study - Cholesterol

During the ATAC 5 year trial (Arimidex, Tamoxifen , Alone, or in Combination) more patients receiving ARIMIDEX were reported to have an elevated serum cholesterol compared to patients receiving tamoxifen (9% versus 3.5%, respectively). A post-marketing trial also evaluated any potential effects of ARIMIDEX on lipid profile. In the primary analysis population for lipids (ARIMIDEX alone), there was no clinically significant change in LDL-C from baseline to 12 months and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months.

In secondary population for lipids (ARIMIDEX+risedronate), there also was no clinically significant change in LDL-C and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months. In both populations for lipids, there was no clinical significant difference in total cholesterol (TC) or serum triglycerides (TG) at 12 months compared with baseline.“

The difference in the elevated serums levels during the ATAC trial between patients receiving Arimidex and those receiving Tamoxifen were, (9% versus 3.5%, respectively) Only a 5.5% difference. Again, in this trial, treatment for 12 months with ARIMIDEX alone had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Combination treatment with ARIMIDEX and risedronate also had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Please see link for complete study: ARIMIDEX (ANASTROZOLE) TABLET [ASTRAZENECA PHARMACEUTICALS LP]

*So for average users of AAS who chooses to include Arimidex as their primary aromatase inhibitor, there is no cause for concern. However, monitoring your Cholesterol levels while using AAS, is recommended.

Other Clinical Studies

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.

Dougherty RH, Rohrer JL, Hayden D, Rubin SD, Leder BZ.
Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02114, USA.

Anastrozole is an oral aromatase inhibitor that normalizes serum testosterone levels and decreases oestradiol levels modestly in elderly men with mild hypogonadism. Thirty-seven elderly hypogonadal men were randomized to receive either anastrozole 1 mg daily, anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly, or daily placebo for 12 weeks in a double-blind fashion. Men aged 62-74 years with mild hypogonadism defined by testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. And although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in hypogonadal men, there is concern that androgens may deleteriously affect cardiovascular risk in elderly men.

Treatment with Arimidex did not significantly affect fasting lipids, inflammatory markers adhesion molecules or insulin sensitivity. There was, however, a positive correlation between changes in serum triglycerides and changes in serum oestradiol levels. And while short-term administration of Arimidex is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

Note: These studies were summarized and showed Arimidex decreased Estradiol by about 50% while raising Testosterone by about 58% in males.

References

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of anastrozole in pubertal boys with recent-onset gynecomastia.Influence of Neoadjuvant Anastrozole (Arimidex) on Intratumoral Estrogen Levels and Proliferation Markers in Patients with Locally Advanced Breast Cancer.

CONCLUSIONS:

To recap:

Aromasin takes a little longer to raise serum levels and has a shorter half life (10 hours), and is a suicide inhibitor. Recommend dose 12.5mg MIN - every day (ED)

Arimidex raises serum levels quicker yet has a longer half life (47 hours), and is a blocker type inhibitor. Recommended dose .25mg - every other day. (EOD)

After researching both compounds and reading the various studies available, i believe that Aromasin or Arimidex are both solid choices for an aromatase inhibitor used on cycle for the average AAS user. I equally believe that there is enough substantial data and evidence that suggests and supports the DAILY use of Aromasin as an aromastase inhibitor as a standard protocol. I no longer subscribe to the every other day (EOD) protocol when advising Aromasin as the primary AI.



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 
Asin is a suicide inhibitor, let's clarify!
ROMASIN – Exemestane

Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor

Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. It averages 90% rate of estrogen suppression, which equals a reduction in estradiol levels of about 50%, as well as significantly raising testosterone .(up to 60%)

Aromasin not only increases testosterone and lowers estrogen, but it also increases levels of insulin -like growth Factor (IGF). And Aromasin is not too harsh on lipid panel (cholesterol), unlike some of the other AIs’ like Letrozole .(Femara) Aromasin reaches steady blood plasma levels of after a week of administration, and this is also when we see it begin its maximal effect on reducing circulating estrogen levels. It has a terminal half life of 9 hours in MEN, so taking it once per day will build up blood plasma levels to a very effective level.

Also, there have been some additional researches related to Aromasin in men in pharmacokinetics. The results of the research are the following:

24 hours after one 25mg dose, estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%;

72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below the baseline;

120 hours after initial dose, estrogen levels return to baseline.

Additionally, the University of Florida conducted a study in healthy young men:

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males.

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977

To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg Aromasin daily, orally, for 10 days with a 14 day washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 hours after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed using a 25mg dose. Aromasin suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38%; 50 mg, 32%], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; for both).

The following observations were made:

Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment.The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption.Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h.The drug was well tolerated.The terminal half-life was 8.9 hours in the male subjects.

In conclusion, Aromasin (Exemestane) is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.

References and Supporting Data:

A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clinical Pharmacology. 2005 Mar, 59(3):355-64.

Eur. J. Cancer. 2000, May;36(8):976-82

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S

Anticancer Res. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):3485

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ARIMIDEX - Anastrozole

Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor

Arimidex binds reversibly to the aromatase enzyme through competitive inhibition. This suppresses the conversion of androgens into estrogen. Circulating plasma estrogen can be reduced by nearly 85% in women using Arimidex. A common misconception is that aromatase inhibition is similar in men and women. However in trials when males were administered 1mg of Arimidex daily, circulating estrogen was only reduced by about 50%. Anastrozole is rapidly absorbed orally (time to reach maximum concentration, 1 hour) with a slow apparent clearance of 1.54 liters/h and a terminal half-life of 46.8 h.

But unlike Aromasin, once you stop taking Arimidex, the aromatase enzyme is free to convert androgens (testosterone) into estrogen again. This is referred to as estrogen rebound.

Estrogen has been measured as much as 7 times higher than normal in men on steroids . This is excessive and can potentially cause water retention, gynecomastia or benign prostatic hyperplasia. Therefore, in order to avoid these side effects, estrogen must be controlled. Reduction in breast area and breast volume have been observed in young men treated for 6 months with Arimidex (1 mg daily). These subjects had recent pre-existing gynecomastia (less than one year). However boys with longstanding gynecomastia (more than one year) were unresponsive to 6 months of Arimidex treatment, possibly due to development of dense breast fibrosis. Therefore using Arimidex to treat recent gynecomastia is supported by the data.

From all the data available, 0.25-.50mg of Arimidex every other day is a good starting point on moderate doses of testosterone. If testosterone doses are raised, then an increase may be needed to control estrogen. Since either high and low estrogen can cause side effects, such as low libido, only labs can determine the appropriate dose of Arimidex. Arimidex not only lowers circulating estrogen but it also increases LH and FSH concentrations in addition to increasing testosterone by about 58% in men. In one study elderly men with mild hypogonadism were administered 1mg daily of Arimidex for 12 weeks. This treatment normalized serum testosterone levels in those men without adversely affecting lipids, precursors of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance. Please see excerpt from ATAC study below.

“Clinical Study - Cholesterol

During the ATAC 5 year trial (Arimidex, Tamoxifen , Alone, or in Combination) more patients receiving ARIMIDEX were reported to have an elevated serum cholesterol compared to patients receiving tamoxifen (9% versus 3.5%, respectively). A post-marketing trial also evaluated any potential effects of ARIMIDEX on lipid profile. In the primary analysis population for lipids (ARIMIDEX alone), there was no clinically significant change in LDL-C from baseline to 12 months and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months.

In secondary population for lipids (ARIMIDEX+risedronate), there also was no clinically significant change in LDL-C and HDL-C from baseline to 12 months. In both populations for lipids, there was no clinical significant difference in total cholesterol (TC) or serum triglycerides (TG) at 12 months compared with baseline.“

The difference in the elevated serums levels during the ATAC trial between patients receiving Arimidex and those receiving Tamoxifen were, (9% versus 3.5%, respectively) Only a 5.5% difference. Again, in this trial, treatment for 12 months with ARIMIDEX alone had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Combination treatment with ARIMIDEX and risedronate also had a neutral effect on lipid profile. Please see link for complete study: ARIMIDEX (ANASTROZOLE) TABLET [ASTRAZENECA PHARMACEUTICALS LP]

*So for average users of AAS who chooses to include Arimidex as their primary aromatase inhibitor, there is no cause for concern. However, monitoring your Cholesterol levels while using AAS, is recommended.

Other Clinical Studies

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.

Dougherty RH, Rohrer JL, Hayden D, Rubin SD, Leder BZ.
Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02114, USA.

Anastrozole is an oral aromatase inhibitor that normalizes serum testosterone levels and decreases oestradiol levels modestly in elderly men with mild hypogonadism. Thirty-seven elderly hypogonadal men were randomized to receive either anastrozole 1 mg daily, anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly, or daily placebo for 12 weeks in a double-blind fashion. Men aged 62-74 years with mild hypogonadism defined by testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. And although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in hypogonadal men, there is concern that androgens may deleteriously affect cardiovascular risk in elderly men.

Treatment with Arimidex did not significantly affect fasting lipids, inflammatory markers adhesion molecules or insulin sensitivity. There was, however, a positive correlation between changes in serum triglycerides and changes in serum oestradiol levels. And while short-term administration of Arimidex is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

Note: These studies were summarized and showed Arimidex decreased Estradiol by about 50% while raising Testosterone by about 58% in males.

References

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels.Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of anastrozole in pubertal boys with recent-onset gynecomastia.Influence of Neoadjuvant Anastrozole (Arimidex) on Intratumoral Estrogen Levels and Proliferation Markers in Patients with Locally Advanced Breast Cancer.

CONCLUSIONS:

To recap:

Aromasin takes a little longer to raise serum levels and has a shorter half life (10 hours), and is a suicide inhibitor. Recommend dose 12.5mg MIN - every day (ED)

Arimidex raises serum levels quicker yet has a longer half life (47 hours), and is a blocker type inhibitor. Recommended dose .25mg - every other day. (EOD)

After researching both compounds and reading the various studies available, i believe that Aromasin or Arimidex are both solid choices for an aromatase inhibitor used on cycle for the average AAS user. I equally believe that there is enough substantial data and evidence that suggests and supports the DAILY use of Aromasin as an aromastase inhibitor as a standard protocol. I no longer subscribe to the every other day (EOD) protocol when advising Aromasin as the primary AI.



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
So correct me if I'm wrong aromasin does block more estrogen than Arimidex correct? Therefore I should keep using the aromasin and not switch to Arimidex?Correct?

from BM
 
Aromasin is considered to be stronger BC its a suicide inhibitor but adex does a good job at eliminating circulating estrogen while aromasin prevents the conversion to estrogen. Until recently I never used aromasin and I must say it seems easier to dial in your estrogen. Ive always used adex and I'm not sure I'll make the switch. The choose is yours and since I'm gyno prone I will take 20mg split dose ed as a preventative measure against gyno. I will say I likely will keep both on hand from now on anyways BC a bunk ai is your worst enemy.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 
SB Labs
You can get your estrogen a lot lower a lot faster with dex. It does seem harder to "dial in" your estrogen levels with dex as well.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong aromasin does block more estrogen than Arimidex correct? Therefore I should keep using the aromasin and not switch to Arimidex?Correct?

from BM

Aromasin kills the enzyme estrogen will be attracted to, amiridex simply attaches to the enzyme to prevent the estrogen from attaching to it. Take to much aromaisn and you can crash your estrogen levels and you will have to wait until your body produces more enzymes to get it back in range. You don't take enough amiridex or stop and you can have an estrogen rebound..... Both work very well when dosed properly. Getting your e2 values will make it much easier to dial it in.
 
You can get your estrogen a lot lower a lot faster with dex. It does seem harder to "dial in" your estrogen levels with dex as well.
I appreciate both of you guys to back now that it seems like I have the gyno under control maybe I will switch to adex, guys should just put 5 every other day or 1 mg every other day considering I am running 600 mg of test and 600 eq?

from BM
 
.5mg EOD is a great starting dose and my usual when I'm only running test without other compounds that also increase estrogen (like dbol, I need 1mg dex ed I dont mess with dbol no more lol)

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