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Cant tame high estrogen, mediocre gains. Where am I failing?

Vastus Fateralis

Vastus Fateralis

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SB Labs
Weeks 1-4 350mg/wk cyp - local gear - gyno flare at week 4
week 5 - out of country couldnt use
week 6-8 GP products 500mg/wk, half prop half cyp, 25mg var ED, 25mg aromasin ED, 20mg Nolva ED

Still not pissing as much as I drink, nipples still intermittently sensitive. If I dose AIs in the morning nips are pissed off by the evening. Splitting AIs into two doses for the day has helped. Is anyone else this freaking E sensitive?


As far as gains: 3500-4000 kcal per day, grazing through the day. Training harder than I ever have, no drugs or alc, decent to crappy sleep.

Its frustrating as fuck to have built a good base over 7 years, did my research, eat more, train harder, and things are going pretty mediocre. Made one rep PR but seeing no notable strength gains, no significant weight gains.

High estrogen is conducive to gains if anything correct? This week bloods will confirm but I figure no way Im still skirting around gyno with low E.

Since adding in the gorrilla pharm products things do seem to be improving slightly. Higher aggression, var is adding vascularity and some hardness. My thought was maybe my first 4 weeks were botched by underdosed gear, which I was already trying to use a low dose with. Definitely got a little testie atrophy and gyno, maybe it was only enough to shut me down.

Regardless Im looking to my own mistakes first. Going to move to 2 a day training, try to further increase food intake. I just cant believe at 25/20 aro/nolva ED Im still having high E symptoms.

What would you do/where am I being a fuck up?
 
I think your first mistake is not getting blood work done weeks 4-6. I wouldn’t have added anything in Week 6-8 until bloodwork was done to see firstly if there was an underlying problem rather than adjusting your casual diet and hard training


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That's a lot of AI man. Live 3x more than I take with my blast of 200mg Deca/250mg Sust every third day and 30mg dbol ED. I train heavy EOD and massive cardio EOD (lift/run/lift/row/lift/swim/lift/run etc).
 
Lokthan said:
I think your first mistake is not getting blood work done weeks 4-6. I wouldn’t have added anything in Week 6-8 until bloodwork was done to see firstly if there was an underlying problem rather than adjusting your casual diet and hard training


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You confirmed Im an idiot. I knew switching things up without bloods was going to be a mistake. I suppose this is what I get for inpatience and lack of discipline, I honestly didnt have the patience wait to use the GP gear once I had it in hand.

Lets say I did continue to see better or good results from the switch to GP products. Should I extend cycle from 12 to 14 weeks, or cut my losses? For career reasons this may be my one shot at a cycle for a long damn time.
 
Vastus Fateralis said:
things are going pretty mediocre. Made one rep PR but seeing no notable strength gains, no significant weight gains.
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This is not because of estrogen brought on by 350 mg of testosterone a week. Sensitive nipples are not necessarily a big deal. 350 mg a week is not much, and you took it for only 4 weeks. With the cypionate ester, results would have just been starting. Then you stopped pinning.

Now you started Gorilla Pharm at 500 mg a week for, what, 2 weeks? And you are overdosing on AI and nolva and taking anavar for some reason and half prop and half cyp . . . wow, you are all over the map.

I would say this -
Run 500 mg test cyp for another 7 weeks (forget about the prop for now). Run the aromasin at 12.5 mg daily, since you have sensitive nipples, although I would consider not running it some days even at 12.5 mg.

Eat 8 eggs in the morning and 2 pounds of meat throughout the day. Get enough carbs from oats, rice, potatoes, and sweet potatoes to fuel your workouts.

Then report back in 7 weeks.

Keep your hormone usage and diet constant. Workout hard on compound lifts like squats.
 
malfeasance said:
This is not because of estrogen brought on by 350 mg of testosterone a week. Sensitive nipples are not necessarily a big deal. 350 mg a week is not much, and you took it for only 4 weeks. With the cypionate ester, results would have just been starting. Then you stopped pinning.

Now you started Gorilla Pharm at 500 mg a week for, what, 2 weeks? And you are overdosing on AI and nolva and taking anavar for some reason and half prop and half cyp . . . wow, you are all over the map.

I would say this -
Run 500 mg test cyp for another 7 weeks (forget about the prop for now). Run the aromasin at 12.5 mg daily, since you have sensitive nipples, although I would consider not running it some days even at 12.5 mg.

Eat 8 eggs in the morning and 2 pounds of meat throughout the day. Get enough carbs from oats, rice, potatoes, and sweet potatoes to fuel your workouts.

Then report back in 7 weeks.

Keep your hormone usage and diet constant. Workout hard on compound lifts like squats.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the input. Its worth mentioning that sensitive nips have not been the sole symptom, semi fiberous mass under right nipple by week four on one side, itchy armpits, very small amounts of clear liquid if nipples were squeezed. I wouldn't be surprised if regardless I kneejerked and have been ODing the aroma/nolva, it just seemed like lower doses were still not managing the gyno.

Also worth mentioning HCG has been used at 250iu every three days, I hear this can affect gyno.

Would you still finish the cycle with prop?

Medium to heavy compound lifts have been the base of my training, with ancillary compound lifts (Like Squat/Front squat) and assistance work used after the days main lifts.

Thanks to yall for helping me sort this out, I let things get pretty messy with the drugs. Training has been good, diet has been mediocre (likely my biggest problem) Going to make adjust and move forward.
 
I still don’t see you saying you’re ordering bloodwork


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as already stated, 350 isn't much but there are those of us that aromatise faster, much faster than others. your prolactin levels might be high from not controlling your estrogen early on, so finding something like caber or prami, but once your bloodwork is in you'll have definite answers. all that being said, i don't know what you were expecting on 350 a week of test, but even now, 500 + 25mg of var isn't going to pack on muscle. you should see decent gains from the 500/wk but it's not going to be mind blowing.
 
SB Labs
friendofzeus said:
as already stated, 350 isn't much but there are those of us that aromatise faster, much faster than others. your prolactin levels might be high from not controlling your estrogen early on, so finding something like caber or prami, but once your bloodwork is in you'll have definite answers. all that being said, i don't know what you were expecting on 350 a week of test, but even now, 500 + 25mg of var isn't going to pack on muscle. you should see decent gains from the 500/wk but it's not going to be mind blowing.
Click to expand...

Thats on I havent thought about. For what its worth I also have seen bits here and there about HCG and prolactin, will know for sure what the deal is with bloods.

That being said I respecfully disagree and think 500 & 25 var should be significant. If my diet would have been perfect Im sure I would have seen much better lean gains. While my goals arent weight-centric, Id bet diet has been my limiting factor for weight gain. While Ive been eating more than I ever have, the quality and quantity of the food both have room for improvement.
 
friendofzeus said:
as already stated, 350 isn't much but there are those of us that aromatise faster, much faster than others. your prolactin levels might be high from not controlling your estrogen early on, so finding something like caber or prami, but once your bloodwork is in you'll have definite answers. all that being said, i don't know what you were expecting on 350 a week of test, but even now, 500 + 25mg of var isn't going to pack on muscle. you should see decent gains from the 500/wk but it's not going to be mind blowing.
Click to expand...
My first cycle was 500 mg of test a week. I gained more than 20 pounds, and, after the water left, I looked like a completely different person. I remember it was summer just after that, and two things stick out in my mind. One was a woman who audibly moaned when I walked by her in swimming trunks. I glanced and smiled, and she had this mortified look and a nervous laugh, like, oh, God, did I just do that out loud? The other was a more old fashioned woman that I was starting to date. She could not even look at me after I stripped down to a swim suit.

I do not know if you could describe my transformation as "mind blowing," but I went from a guy who "eh, he looks like maybe he works out" to somebody who had a visible reaction from females who saw him. All on 500mg test a week for 10 weeks.
 
Vastus Fateralis said:
If my diet would have been perfect Im sure I would have seen much better lean gains. While my goals arent weight-centric, Id bet diet has been my limiting factor for weight gain. While Ive been eating more than I ever have, the quality and quantity of the food both have room for improvement.
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Well, fix it. Why supplement hormones if you aren't going to provide the building blocks. We have an underutilized section of this forum called Diet and Nutrition. Plenty of help available there if you are not 100% up on what you should and should not be eating.

Diet was something I nailed for my first cycle, and I credit the transformation to it.
 
malfeasance said:
My first cycle was 500 mg of test a week. I gained more than 20 pounds, and, after the water left, I looked like a completely different person. I remember it was summer just after that, and two things stick out in my mind. One was a woman who audibly moaned when I walked by her in swimming trunks. I glanced and smiled, and she had this mortified look and a nervous laugh, like, oh, God, did I just do that out loud? The other was a more old fashioned woman that I was starting to date. She could not even look at me after I stripped down to a swim suit.

I do not know if you could describe my transformation as "mind blowing," but I went from a guy who "eh, he looks like maybe he works out" to somebody who had a visible reaction from females who saw him. All on 500mg test a week for 10 weeks.
Click to expand...


i think a lot of someone's first cycle with the 5-600mg/wk and the results they get are dependent on the person and the base that they have already naturally established. I had been lifting for years with a natural body builder helping me with my diet for quite some time before hopping on gear and was weighing in the upper 2xx teens. if i remember right I gained about 14lbs (estimated) because i dropped body fat and gained lean mass. while i made noticeable gains and changes to my physique, i don't believe that my own changes were that extreme. maybe others thought differently but if they did, no one said anything and i definitely wouldn't say that I looked like a different person. If i had started that same cycle at lets say 170lbs and stacked on 20lbs of lean mass, then yeah i'd say that would be pretty freaking nice!
 
I dont know if anyone said it yet but your AI is definately bunk if you are have leaking nips/itchy/puffy I would drop everything and get some letro asap
 
heckler7 said:
I dont know if anyone said it yet but your AI is definately bunk if you are have leaking nips/itchy/puffy I would drop everything and get some letro asap
Click to expand...

leaky nips is generally associated with prolactin which letro does nothing for.
 
heckler7 said:
I dont know if anyone said it yet but your AI is definately bunk if you are have leaking nips/itchy/puffy I would drop everything and get some letro asap
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I second that...the stuff you are taking should take care of that..but is not?
 
Maybe the very puffy appearance of the nips is indicating prolactin

However what constitutes truly leaky nips? There is barely any fluid when squeezed, not ever enough to form a droplet that would roll off the tip of the nipple. If I recall I could get this same fluid in a slightly smaller amount when natural.

Also AI was not started till week 4, not sure if this changes things. Want to factor that in before exploring the possibility of GPs AI products being bunk. They did seem to improve symptoms when I added them in initially
 
I did the same thing youre doing- too much AI and it crashed my E. Gotta get bloods frequently to figure this out
 
Bloods bloods bloods!!!
AND you DO need Estrogen to grow. Too much E2 then your fucked..... 25mg ED Aromasin is far too much!
Nips are leaking, thats where you may need Caber/Prami. Bloods tell all.
 
SB Labs
I'm guessing your AI isn't pharma and is bunk. I've been burned before with bunk AI and only use pharma now.
 
I would lower the testosterone dose and inject more frequently maybe a low dose ai. Not worth walking around having leaking nips.
 

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