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I Need help beating HCG Sides

S

svt2001

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Get Shredded!
I recently added HCG at 250 IU's twice a week to my treatment on December 9, 2015 coupled with Test E at 125mg a week and adex at .5mg a week.

Recently, acne on my chin has gotten really bad. My assumption is that it is Estradiol related.
My levels were at 11.9 pg/ml (Reference Interval 7.6 to 42.6)


I upped my adex to 1mg a week, does anyone have experience with HCG and acne or HCG and Estrogen problems?
Will the adex be enough or is this an entirely different beast?
 
I assume you're on TRT and you're trying to stay fertile? Right? You trying to put a bun in the oven after slippin her Mr. One Eye...?

Other than trying to have a baby I have no godly idea why you are taking HCG. Especially on a dose of 125mg/week. Excuse my bluntness but this is just fucking retarded. Go look at basskilers protocol for a cycle on HGH and insulin. This is an example of a very heavy steroid cycle. He doesn't even touch HCG until weeks 9-12. Using HCG on cycle two to three times a week is not necessary unless it's a very suppressive cycle like Deca...Tren...high MG test....

Now that we've established that...yes HCG can cause estrogen to elevate. Normally an adex dose is .5mg-1mg/DAY not 1mg a week. Some people have more trouble with the physical sides of estrogen than others. I get no physical sides but mentally I'm a nut job. You just need to play with your dose and find what works for you. That being said...I would get on something more reliable like nolvadex or Exemestane. I will never use adex again cause I had a bad experience with a rebound effect that took weeks to get under control. Either drop the HCG or start taking.5mg/day and in the meantime start looking for a reliable exemestane source. I hear this joint called IMR(iron mag research)has top quality peptides and sarms and serms and all that good stuff.

Good luck!!!
 
raysd21 said:
I assume you're on TRT and you're trying to stay fertile? Right? You trying to put a bun in the oven after slippin her Mr. One Eye...?

Other than trying to have a baby I have no godly idea why you are taking HCG. Especially on a dose of 125mg/week. Excuse my bluntness but this is just fucking retarded. Go look at basskilers protocol for a cycle on HGH and insulin. This is an example of a very heavy steroid cycle. He doesn't even touch HCG until weeks 9-12. Using HCG on cycle two to three times a week is not necessary unless it's a very suppressive cycle like Deca...Tren...high MG test....

Now that we've established that...yes HCG can cause estrogen to elevate. Normally an adex dose is .5mg-1mg/DAY not 1mg a week. Some people have more trouble with the physical sides of estrogen than others. I get no physical sides but mentally I'm a nut job. You just need to play with your dose and find what works for you. That being said...I would get on something more reliable like nolvadex or Exemestane. I will never use adex again cause I had a bad experience with a rebound effect that took weeks to get under control. Either drop the HCG or start taking.5mg/day and in the meantime start looking for a reliable exemestane source. I hear this joint called IMR(iron mag research)has top quality peptides and sarms and serms and all that good stuff.

Good luck!!!
Click to expand...

There is a distinct advantage to using HCG while on cycle, especially a longer cycle.

That advantage is that after a cycle including HCG, you only have to wait for the hypothalamus and the pituitary to recover.

After a cycle without HCG, you wait for the hypothalamus, then the pituitary, then the testes. And that takes longer...

Or

You can listen to Raysd21 and suffer through a tougher PCT and thank him later.
 
svt2001 said:
I recently added HCG at 250 IU's twice a week to my treatment on December 9, 2015 coupled with Test E at 125mg a week and adex at .5mg a week.

Recently, acne on my chin has gotten really bad. My assumption is that it is Estradiol related.
My levels were at 11.9 pg/ml (Reference Interval 7.6 to 42.6)


I upped my adex to 1mg a week, does anyone have experience with HCG and acne or HCG and Estrogen problems?
Will the adex be enough or is this an entirely different beast?
Click to expand...


Your estradiol is already far too low, which can very well cause acne. A value of ~12 pg/ml on the standard assay means that your estradiol is crashed. If you were to have used the sensitive assay (the test that is preferred for males), your estradiol would be undetectable. Lay off the Adex for awhile and allow your estradiol to recover.


raysd21 said:
I assume you're on TRT and you're trying to stay fertile? Right? You trying to put a bun in the oven after slippin her Mr. One Eye...?

Other than trying to have a baby I have no godly idea why you are taking HCG. Especially on a dose of 125mg/week. Excuse my bluntness but this is just fucking retarded. Go look at basskilers protocol for a cycle on HGH and insulin. This is an example of a very heavy steroid cycle. He doesn't even touch HCG until weeks 9-12. Using HCG on cycle two to three times a week is not necessary unless it's a very suppressive cycle like Deca...Tren...high MG test....

Now that we've established that...yes HCG can cause estrogen to elevate. Normally an adex dose is .5mg-1mg/DAY not 1mg a week. Some people have more trouble with the physical sides of estrogen than others. I get no physical sides but mentally I'm a nut job. You just need to play with your dose and find what works for you. That being said...I would get on something more reliable like nolvadex or Exemestane. I will never use adex again cause I had a bad experience with a rebound effect that took weeks to get under control. Either drop the HCG or start taking.5mg/day and in the meantime start looking for a reliable exemestane source. I hear this joint called IMR(iron mag research)has top quality peptides and sarms and serms and all that good stuff.

Good luck!!!
Click to expand...


No, the answer to his problem is NOT to throw more Adex into the mix. His estradiol is already too low. Doses of .5-1mg/day are not used for TRT purposes (outside of VERY rare exceptions). That is a sure fire way to keep estradiol suppressed to unhealthy levels.

The answer here is less Adex, not more.
 
Why is HcG prescribed for TRT if negatively effects e2 so bad? I am just trying to understand and help deciede if I want to continue using HcG while on TRT.

I've been without HcG for 3 weeks and my libido is lowered and mi can feel my balls when doing certain excersize which I didn't feel while on HcG.

Just got back on HcG and those symptoms disappeared.
 
placebo said:
Why is HcG prescribed for TRT if negatively effects e2 so bad? I am just trying to understand and help deciede if I want to continue using HcG while on TRT.

I've been without HcG for 3 weeks and my libido is lowered and mi can feel my balls when doing certain excersize which I didn't feel while on HcG.

Just got back on HcG and those symptoms disappeared.
Click to expand...


The effects on estradiol are very dose dependent. For most guys, 250IU 2x/week shouldn't have a major impact on E2...or no impact at all. Some men are more sensitive than others, but generally speaking, low doses won't cause any issues.

Its typically the guys on doses much larger than that who end up having a difficult time managing estradiol.
 
placebo said:
Why is HcG prescribed for TRT if negatively effects e2 so bad? I am just trying to understand and help deciede if I want to continue using HcG while on TRT.

I've been without HcG for 3 weeks and my libido is lowered and mi can feel my balls when doing certain excersize which I didn't feel while on HcG.

Just got back on HcG and those symptoms disappeared.
Click to expand...

It looks like HCG may trigger some aromatization above and beyond that expected normally for higher test levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC411596/

That said, I've run a lot of HCG on cycle at 1,000 IU/wk and not had any particularly bad E2 issues -- I can keep em low with 25mg/day aromasin most times. It's the high levels of exogenous test that make E2 management a tougher nut to crack.

HCG-triggered aromatization may only kick in at higher, saturating levels of HCG. Not sure. A lot of people (including legit TRT patients, as you mention) are on HCG without these problems so if it were a big issue I'd expect it would be more obvious.
 
How old are you? How much water are you drinking? How's your diet and hygiene? This is odd to me...


2943 out...
 
bigbal2943 said:
How old are you? How much water are you drinking? How's your diet and hygiene? This is odd to me...


2943 out...
Click to expand...


I'm in my 30's.

1 gallon of water a day consisting of Crystal Light and coffee, not plain water.

My diet is superb IMO, healthy fats like almonds, olive oil, etc. and lean protein mostly with the exception around my workout where I will have white rice. Most of my fiber intake comes from plain pinto beans and the almonds.

I'm very clean IMO. I'm a neat freak actually.


Yes, it's odd to me too. I thought high estradiol was causing my hormonal acne, not low. Either way, I think I am going to lay off the HCG. Acne is embarrassing at my age.
 
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Hooks & Ladders said:
Your estradiol is already far too low, which can very well cause acne. A value of ~12 pg/ml on the standard assay means that your estradiol is crashed. If you were to have used the sensitive assay (the test that is preferred for males), your estradiol would be undetectable. Lay off the Adex for awhile and allow your estradiol to recover.





No, the answer to his problem is NOT to throw more Adex into the mix. His estradiol is already too low. Doses of .5-1mg/day are not used for TRT purposes (outside of VERY rare exceptions). That is a sure fire way to keep estradiol suppressed to unhealthy levels.

The answer here is less Adex, not more.
Click to expand...


Just to be clear, my estradiol was at 11.9 prior to the HCG, not after the HCG.
 
svt2001 said:
I'm in my 30's.

1 gallon of water a day consisting of Crystal Light and coffee, not plain water.

My diet is superb IMO, healthy fats like almonds, olive oil, etc. and lean protein mostly with the exception around my workout where I will have white rice. Most of my fiber intake comes from plain pinto beans and the almonds.

I'm very clean IMO. I'm a neat freak actually.


Yes, it's odd to me too. I thought high estradiol was causing my hormonal acne, not low. Either way, I think I am going to lay off the HCG. Acne is embarrassing at my age.
Click to expand...


Your estradiol isn't going to go up just by ditching the hCG. The Adex it's what's causing it to be low...which is causing the acne.
 
Just lay off the HCG if you can't take the sides. Jesus fucking Christ what the fuck.

Get exemestane and lay off the adex too. Adex is just a band aid in my opinion.
 
raysd21 said:
Just lay off the HCG if you can't take the sides. Jesus fucking Christ what the fuck.

Get exemestane and lay off the adex too. Adex is just a band aid in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks raysd21 for being straightforward.
 
Try lowering the hcg to 100iu twice a week. Maybe take a few weeks off. Let the acne clear up. That's what I would do honestly. Hcg is strong. And you're not running enough test to validate 500iu a week honestly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
And you still never told us why you are taking HCG in the first place unless I missed it.

Why?

I know guys who've gotten gyno from running hcg alone bro. It's strong shit.

People see 250iu twice a week cause that's the bro science. It is strong shit. It just doesn't need to be run like that. You're not supposed to run it consistently for long periods of time either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I use hcg because I like my big nuts. I pin 1000iu once a week about 4 days after my weekly cruise dose of test. Never seen an issue with e2.

Since switch to asin everything is better. Adex is a finicky bitch.
 
Some great info in this thread!

sent FROM HELL
 
raysd21 said:
Try lowering the hcg to 100iu twice a week. Maybe take a few weeks off. Let the acne clear up. That's what I would do honestly. Hcg is strong. And you're not running enough test to validate 500iu a week honestly.
Click to expand...

raysd21 said:
And you still never told us why you are taking HCG in the first place unless I missed it.

Why?

I know guys who've gotten gyno from running hcg alone bro. It's strong shit.

People see 250iu twice a week cause that's the bro science. It is strong shit. It just doesn't need to be run like that. You're not supposed to run it consistently for long periods of time either.
Click to expand...

I think your understanding of HCG is severely limited. Use it as you like, but your advice here is going to mislead people. We've had countless threads with linked studies and lots of input from respected vets that disputes what you're saying, but the search function fails on 3-letter acronyms so they aren't easy to dig up.

Many of us run HCG while shut down in order to keep the balls around. The amount you use is completely independent of the test dosage. If you're shut down you're shut down -- LH is zero whether you're on TRT or 2g/wk mega cycle. The HCG dose is strictly for replacing the missing LH.

For most of us, 1,000/wk is the right dose for LH replacement and full stimulation of the leydig cells. Some peeps here say 500/wk will do it but there's at least one study showing (via bloodwork, etc) that isn't the case for most of us. But even if the dose is only covering 50-75% of a "full" dose, that's going to be better than nothing and maybe will keep the balls big enough to make the patient happy, so... no big deal either way.

The broscience about desensitization appears to be bunk, or about 99% so. The only study I'm aware of that shows significant desensitization was after two years of 4,500 IU/wk. Two years... mega-dose. There's an endo out there, Michael Scally, who really tears apart people perpetuating the myth and challenges anyone to find a reputable study of desensitization at normal doses and durations of use. He's a bit of a dick but I think his science is right in this case.
 
chocolatemalt said:
I think your understanding of HCG is severely limited. Use it as you like, but your advice here is going to mislead people. We've had countless threads with linked studies and lots of input from respected vets that disputes what you're saying, but the search function fails on 3-letter acronyms so they aren't easy to dig up.

Many of us run HCG while shut down in order to keep the balls around. The amount you use is completely independent of the test dosage. If you're shut down you're shut down -- LH is zero whether you're on TRT or 2g/wk mega cycle. The HCG dose is strictly for replacing the missing LH.

For most of us, 1,000/wk is the right dose for LH replacement and full stimulation of the leydig cells. Some peeps here say 500/wk will do it but there's at least one study showing (via bloodwork, etc) that isn't the case for most of us. But even if the dose is only covering 50-75% of a "full" dose, that's going to be better than nothing and maybe will keep the balls big enough to make the patient happy, so... no big deal either way.

The broscience about desensitization appears to be bunk, or about 99% so. The only study I'm aware of that shows significant desensitization was after two years of 4,500 IU/wk. Two years... mega-dose. There's an endo out there, Michael Scally, who really tears apart people perpetuating the myth and challenges anyone to find a reputable study of desensitization at normal doses and durations of use. He's a bit of a dick but I think his science is right in this case.
Click to expand...

There are two sides of the coin. Stick to your side bro. I don't give a shit. I don't replace LH. I stimulate the production with Nolvadex. You can use as much HCG as you want. I could care less. Estrogen is 200 times as suppressive on LH as testosterone. You're barking up the wrong tree. What does HCG do? It converts to estrogen. So you're bringing more estro in and suppressing natural LH even harder. Bros need to get ahold of there lives and legit AI before they get all crazy trying to find HCG. You don't see threads...help my nolvadex is giving me cockblisters. No. It's HCG is giving me gyno. Help with HCG sides etc....

Just stick to your side bro. I don't fucking care. Just don't tell people your way is the only way or the best way or this or that. Cause it's obviously not. Jesus fucking Christ on a cracker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Get Shredded!
And like JR said above HCG keeps the boys nice and full for when you actually do PCT. All this worrying about perfectly simulating LH through out the whole cycle is just fucking retarded. You're gonna raise your cirtisol levels worrying about stupid shit like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bba134248d1eb4299dd7ee25cf364b63.jpg



All info in warranted. Though communication skills are lacking. One may misconstrue lack of communication skills for high e2 and negate all info provided.

2943 out...
 
raysd21 said:
There are two sides of the coin. Stick to your side bro. I don't give a shit. I don't replace LH. I stimulate the production with Nolvadex. You can use as much HCG as you want. I could care less. Estrogen is 200 times as suppressive on LH as testosterone. You're barking up the wrong tree. What does HCG do? It converts to estrogen. So you're bringing more estro in and suppressing natural LH even harder. Bros need to get ahold of there lives and legit AI before they get all crazy trying to find HCG. You don't see threads...help my nolvadex is giving me cockblisters. No. It's HCG is giving me gyno. Help with HCG sides etc....

Just stick to your side bro. I don't fucking care. Just don't tell people your way is the only way or the best way or this or that. Cause it's obviously not. Jesus fucking Christ on a cracker.
Click to expand...

You're saying that HCG, this molecule here:
hcg-hormone1.jpg

... converts to this molecule?

estradiol-c-01.jpgda6144c9-057f-419e-8c52-212ad110d471Larger.jpg

Jesus fucking christ on a cracker is right. I'm all done listening to any info in your posts... I'd advise others to exercise similar caution.


raysd21 said:
And like JR said above HCG keeps the boys nice and full for when you actually do PCT. All this worrying about perfectly simulating LH through out the whole cycle is just fucking retarded. You're gonna raise your cirtisol levels worrying about stupid shit like that.
Click to expand...

The irony is thick here.



bigbal2943 said:
bba134248d1eb4299dd7ee25cf364b63.jpg



All info in warranted. Though communication skills are lacking. One may misconstrue lack of communication skills for high e2 and negate all info provided.

2943 out...
Click to expand...

The Dude abides!

the-dude-abides-o.gif
 
This is all great information and helpful. Why am I taking HCG? Well, because I thought that was standard operating procedure for TRT. I don't have health insurance or a doctor and I am figuring things out on my own like many of us here.

I got most of my TRT info from the sticky on Tnation where the standard is 100mg of Test, 1mg of adex, and HCG 250 IU's twice a week.
https://forums.t-nation.com/t/trt-protocol-for-injections/132230

What I didn't know was how easily HCG elevates your E2 levels. It seems that few people are aware of this.
 
svt2001 said:
What I didn't know was how easily HCG elevates your E2 levels. It seems that few people are aware of this.
Click to expand...

That may be because it's usually not an issue. At 1,000 IU/wk and sometimes 1,500 I haven't seen a problem. It might be something that only affects some people or only kicks in at higher saturation levels.

Of course, lack of awareness may also simply be a lack of bloodwork. As always, frequent labs are a good thing.
 
chocolatemalt said:
That may be because it's usually not an issue. At 1,000 IU/wk and sometimes 1,500 I haven't seen a problem. It might be something that only affects some people or only kicks in at higher saturation levels.

Thanks chocolatemalt,

Kicking in at higher saturation levels makes sense. The acne didn't start popping up until 3 weeks after I started the HCG.
Click to expand...
 
I wouldnt get your estrogen any lower for sure. I have been on prescribed trt for a little over a year now. 200mg test 500hcg .25-.75 adex /week. Doc has chased the estrogen around with the adex. I used to use aromasin for cycles and liked it a lot better, probably going to pick some up. I would keep an eye on your lipids with the adex, mine have become pretty messed up. Not horrible but not where I want them to be. I am not saying it is what is going on with you but when on the higher dose of adex my estrogen was driven into the ground and I was having some acne problems.

One this is for sure, TRT is not all sunshine and rainbows that some people think it will be.
 
roscoe221 said:
I wouldnt get your estrogen any lower for sure. I have been on prescribed trt for a little over a year now. 200mg test 500hcg .25-.75 adex /week. Doc has chased the estrogen around with the adex. I used to use aromasin for cycles and liked it a lot better, probably going to pick some up. I would keep an eye on your lipids with the adex, mine have become pretty messed up. Not horrible but not where I want them to be. I am not saying it is what is going on with you but when on the higher dose of adex my estrogen was driven into the ground and I was having some acne problems.

One this is for sure, TRT is not all sunshine and rainbows that some people think it will be.
Click to expand...

I didn't want my estrogen that low, it wasn't intentional. My lipid panel is excellent with HDL, LDL, and triglycerides all being slightly above 60.

So, low and high estrogen can cause acne? I just assumed high estrogen because I only got acne 3 weeks after starting HCG without adex.

My new plan is just 125mg Test E weekly by itself. I don't think that I need an AI and HCG gave me huge pus filled acne on my chin.

I will miss popping these bad boys however!
 
JRotten said:
I use hcg because I like my big nuts. I pin 1000iu once a week about 4 days after my weekly cruise dose of test. Never seen an issue with e2.

Since switch to asin everything is better. Adex is a finicky bitch.
Click to expand...


Agreed!
 
I'm not real sure about the long posts here so I'm going to sum things up: HCG mimics LH in the testis which stimulates the leydig cells to produce testosterone and sperm; it is frequently run low with trt or on cycle to do 3 things: maintain fertility, make it easier to come off/pct if need be, maintain a more natural hormone state. There are doctors that believe that testosterone production in the testicles is beneficial to the prostate and somewhat protective because of the localized DHT production when the testicles are producing test. Estrogen is created from aromatization of testosterone, not from hcg, however if the hcg injections are causing test to spike it will also do the same with estrogen since more test means more e2. Swings in e2 can cause things like acne, but personally I see absolutely no difference pinning 1000iu once weekly versus 350iu x2/wk except my nuts respond better to one large dose as opposed to an equal amount with split dosing. YMMV

Adex can also make it harder to maintain steady levels because at small doses people tend to be dosing once or twice a week which is not optimal timing and adex had a rebound as well being easier to crush e2 with. Asin daily or EOD seems to work better for me depending on dose. I had my doctor switch me to asin for trt and there's no looking back.
 
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