Twice over, PCT didn't help me keep gains

[graargragagagrar]

Twice over, in the course of 1.5 years, I cycled Sustanon + Tren, 12 weeks.
Twice over gains were exceptional, both strength and mass (last time I gained something like 20lbs, mostly lean)
Twice over I did PCT religiously, Clomid + Novaldex, 5 weeks.

Twice over I lost basically all of my gains, and experienced some mild issue with libido.

I wonder what I might be doing wrong, or if perhaps the stack I chose doesn't... stick.
47 years old.

Hints?
Thanks

 

[chadmack282]

Twice over, in the course of 1.5 years, I cycled Sustanon + Tren, 12 weeks.
Twice over gains were exceptional, both strength and mass (last time I gained something like 20lbs, mostly lean)
Twice over I did PCT religiously, Clomid + Novaldex, 5 weeks.

Twice over I lost basically all of my gains, and experienced some mild issue with libido.

I wonder what I might be doing wrong, or if perhaps the stack I chose doesn't... stick.
47 years old.

Hints?
Thanks

What were your test levels B4 cycle & after pct?
U probably did not have high enough test levels tp support the new muscle.
This is why a lot us over 40-50 have to do trt or cruise, it's age related.

 

[Ogre]

PCT isn't supposed to retain gains. PCT is to get hormones back in balance after a cycle.

 

[graargragagagrar]

What were your test levels B4 cycle & after pct?
U probably did not have high enough test levels tp support the new muscle.
This is why a lot us over 40-50 have to do trt or cruise, it's age related.

It was 550 before, I didn't test afterward.
I guess you might be right, but is it true even for a moderate mass?
I was 67kg before working out at all, got to 73 (very lean, 12% body fat) naturally, and above 80 after each cycle.
Even this moderate increase might be too much for my natural test to support?

 

[Matt88]

Did you keep diet and training the same post cycle as it was on cycle?

The most important time to have diet and training consistent and on point is post cycle. PCT isn't directly helping you keep gains.

You come off cycle, your hormones level drops into nothingness. It takes time for your natural testosterone levels to creep back up. This is a big reason why so many of us never come off. We are always on at least trt.

 

[eazy_]

....

 

[Matt88]

It was 550 before, I didn't test afterward.
I guess you might be right, but is it true even for a moderate mass?
I was 67kg before working out at all, got to 73 (very lean, 12% body fat) naturally, and above 80 after each cycle.
Even this moderate increase might be too much for my natural test to support?

By not testing afterwards you can't say for certain your natural testosterone production came back to what it was before. The older we get the more difficult it becomes to restart our natural testosterone production. Anytime you shut it off by being on testosterone/gear you run the risk of it never coming back. You risk permanent shutdown. Do most guys bounce back? Sure they do but the risk is there that they might not.

 

[graargragagagrar]

Did you keep diet and training the same post cycle as it was on cycle?

The most important time to have diet and training consistent and on point is post cycle. PCT isn't directly helping you keep gains.

You come off cycle, your hormones level drops into nothingness. It takes time for your natural testosterone levels to creep back up. This is a big reason why so many of us never come off. We are always on at least trt.

Yes of course, I kept training and protein intake just as during cycle. I admittedly lowered a bit the calories intake.
I guess age and natural testosterone levels are the issue here ?‍?

 

[chadmack282]

It was 550 before, I didn't test afterward.
I guess you might be right, but is it true even for a moderate mass?
I was 67kg before working out at all, got to 73 (very lean, 12% body fat) naturally, and above 80 after each cycle.
Even this moderate increase might be too much for my natural test to support?

There's a good chance your natural test levels didn't recover or your training, diet, rest r inadequate off cycle.

 

[Matt88]

Yes of course, I kept training and protein intake just as during cycle. I admittedly lowered a bit the calories intake.
I guess age and natural testosterone levels are the issue here ?‍?

How much did you lower the calorie intake? If you're eating in a caloric surplus or even at maintenance during your cycle then you come off and start eating less and in a deficit that could be a very large part of this. With your hormones dropping off you're already In a catabolic state then you eat in a deficit and your body won't spare muscle and only take fat for the needed energy expenditure. It will take both muscle and fat.

 

[chadmack282]

Yes of course, I kept training and protein intake just as during cycle. I admittedly lowered a bit the calories intake.
I guess age and natural testosterone levels are the issue here ?‍?

Yep, I will b 50 in July & I have to trt.
Get your test levels checked & try to pct again if u like but I would probably just trt.

 

[graargragagagrar]

I can't quantify exactly but I didn't lower it that much, perhaps 15% and yes, during cycle I was in surplus but not that much either, just slightly above maintenance. I might be slightly in deficit.

I lost lean mass, but I didn't shed that much fat either.
Sounds like low test, does it? ?

How much did you lower the calorie intake? If you're eating in a caloric surplus or even at maintenance during your cycle then you come off and start eating less and in a deficit that could be a very large part of this. With your hormones dropping off you're already In a catabolic state then you eat in a deficit and your body won't spare muscle and only take fat for the needed energy expenditure. It will take both muscle and fat

 

[Fletcher]

Twice over, in the course of 1.5 years, I cycled Sustanon + Tren, 12 weeks.
Twice over gains were exceptional, both strength and mass (last time I gained something like 20lbs, mostly lean)
Twice over I did PCT religiously, Clomid + Novaldex, 5 weeks.

Twice over I lost basically all of my gains, and experienced some mild issue with libido.

I wonder what I might be doing wrong, or if perhaps the stack I chose doesn't... stick.
47 years old.

Hints?
Thanks

Bc PCT is SHIT.
There is nothing "therapeudic" about slamming your system with nolva, clomid, etc... all that does is create a shit storm when your body is already dealing with a hormonal change.

It makes absolutely no sense, even on paper, and even less in reality.

JUST. COME. OFF.
(Or cruise/trt)

The faster your levels drop, the faster your body will notice and adjust. No need to confuse things with 3-5 extra drugs. Smfh

2 things that need to DIE:

1. "Tapering/Pyramiding/Titrating" if you want a list of all the reasons THATS fucking stupid Ill gladly list them.

2. "PCT"

 

[Montego]

You didn't eat and train hard enough when you came off.

You don't reduce calories when you come off

You should also rest more and train harder when you do train. (training harder does not mean being stronger)

It's what almost everyone does until they figure out it doesn't work. It's the old "I'm afraid I'll get fat if I keep eating like this without the drugs" mentality.

The way I know you didn't eat enough, you said you kept protein the same. So I would bet, you kept protein about the same, reduced carbs and here you are because again, you were afraid of the drugs being gone.

 

[graargragagagrar]

You didn't eat and train hard enough when you came off.

You don't reduce calories when you come off

You should also rest more and train harder when you do train. (training harder does not mean being stronger)

It's what almost everyone does until they figure out it doesn't work. It's the old "I'm afraid I'll get fat if I keep eating like this without the drugs" mentality.

The way I know you didn't eat enough, you said you kept protein the same. So I would bet, you kept protein about the same, reduced carbs and here you are because again, you were afraid of the drugs being gone.

I definitely did not eat enough, and I have forgone carbs, you are right.

But as for training, I trained if possible even harder, I knew that was key.
That's when after a couple weeks I started crashing and my lifts went down.

 

[Rot-Iron66]

Up the calories when off.
Adjust training. Anyone can grow on any kind of training (when on).
When off, focus on a Powerlifting / Powerbuilding type program. Focus on big multi-joint lifts using a progression. (Bench, SQ, DL, OHP).
Add 10 grams of creatine a day.

 

[Wiseguy]

You didn't eat and train hard enough when you came off.

You don't reduce calories when you come off

You should also rest more and train harder when you do train. (training harder does not mean being stronger)

It's what almost everyone does until they figure out it doesn't work. It's the old "I'm afraid I'll get fat if I keep eating like this without the drugs" mentality.

The way I know you didn't eat enough, you said you kept protein the same. So I would bet, you kept protein about the same, reduced carbs and here you are because again, you were afraid of the drugs being gone.

Everything coach said is spot on. Also, purpose of pct is to get your natural test production going and recover, it’s not to keep gains. That’s where the food and training comes in.

 

[Glycomann]

People think they should snap back in a couple months. If you're going to play the on/off game it's a bit of a yoyoing. The rule of thumb was the three 8s. First 8 weeks sucks after the first 3. Second 8 weeks is a little better. By the end of the third 8 weeks chances are you are getting close to back to normal natty state. Mass drops the first 8 weeks, normalizes in the second 8 weeks and by the 20 week mark or so weight rebounds some of the gains. 8 or so lbs is steroid pump so expect to lose at least that much overall until back on AAS. Gains after and above the first 2 cycles are really hard to hold. Tren is really suppressive so recovery would be on the longer end. Not that many play the on/off game anymore. It's an 80s/90s thing. Most of those guys are still healthy in their 50s and 60s. Take if for what it's worth.

You are in your late 40s. Maybe a better strategy for you is to go to TRT between cycles and use hCG for testes support on and off. TRT is the amount of test to take to keep you at 800 ng/dL. Easier to hold gains. You will still lose some of the steroid pump. On/off is more of a young man's game. At least in the 80s/90s years HPTA snapped back pretty well for most. Amount of drugs was probably less on average.

 

[mass gain]

Bc PCT is SHIT.
There is nothing "therapeudic" about slamming your system with nolva, clomid, etc... all that does is create a shit storm when your body is already dealing with a hormonal change.

It makes absolutely no sense, even on paper, and even less in reality.

JUST. COME. OFF.
(Or cruise/trt)

The faster your levels drop, the faster your body will notice and adjust. No need to confuse things with 3-5 extra drugs. Smfh

2 things that need to DIE:

1. "Tapering/Pyramiding/Titrating" if you want a list of all the reasons THATS fucking stupid Ill gladly list them.

2. "PCT"

Endos tend to agree with this. My experience coming off cold turkey was that my levels came back to normal (low end, just over 300) with no PCT and this happened twice, once testing after 3 months (on my own) and another time testing after 6 months (endo pull).

So yeah, not necessary and I do agree that the older you are, the longer your natural production can take to bounce back if it does at all which is why many older guys stay on TRT or blast and cruise indefinitely.

 

[bigdadybry]

I agree with the training and diet being the culprit. These are two of the most difficult things for me post-cycle.

I am 50 yo and in PCT right now. Only difference between this PCT and last is I used HCG while on-cycle this time instead of after cycle/before PCT. I wanted to try both methods and prefer the low dose HCG on cycle. Maintaining calories in PCT is difficult for me because i do not have the hunger. I add healthy fats when needed to compensate because it does not take much.

My training method is more powerbuilding so strength has remained steady, going up slightly, but definitely not at the rate as on-cycle. This works best for me to maintain my gains, and also ensuring I am getting in the same or even slightly more calories.

I do not do TRT. I will verify in a few weeks how successful this PCT was compare to the previous via labs, then do another one 4 weeks after that to see where I am compared to my pre-cycle "normal".

If your training volume and intensity is on-point, verify your diet. Diet is where I failed in the past.

 

[CoachCabo]

Yes of course, I kept training and protein intake just as during cycle. I admittedly lowered a bit the calories intake.
I guess age and natural testosterone levels are the issue here ?‍?

I doubt it. It looks like others did as well. It is EXTREMELY rare to see anyone train and eat the same they did as when they were using gear. It is EXTREMELY hard to do, with the reduction in recovery, the constant soreness, the significant loss of strength and having to keep eating all that food like you did while on a cycle. So rare in fact, it is the norm to see the majority of guys "lose all their gainz" and subsequently coming to the conclusion that you can only be or get big on steroids.
The people who power through after getting off gear are very, very rare.

You didn't eat and train hard enough when you came off.

You don't reduce calories when you come off

You should also rest more and train harder when you do train. (training harder does not mean being stronger)

It's what almost everyone does until they figure out it doesn't work. It's the old "I'm afraid I'll get fat if I keep eating like this without the drugs" mentality.

The way I know you didn't eat enough, you said you kept protein the same. So I would bet, you kept protein about the same, reduced carbs and here you are because again, you were afraid of the drugs being gone.

As usual, you nailed it. These were my exact thoughts. You and I have both seen this time and time again.
I wonder if you field as many situations as I do, having to convince clients that when they get off drugs, they can stay pretty close to the same as on? It is so hard to convince them that what they accomplished was due to dedication to the program, not the drugs.

 

[Astro95]

I doubt it. It looks like others did as well. It is EXTREMELY rare to see anyone train and eat the same they did as when they were using gear. It is EXTREMELY hard to do, with the reduction in recovery, the constant soreness, the significant loss of strength and having to keep eating all that food like you did while on a cycle. So rare in fact, it is the norm to see the majority of guys "lose all their gainz" and subsequently coming to the conclusion that you can only be or get big on steroids.
The people who power through after getting off gear are very, very rare.

As usual, you nailed it. These were my exact thoughts. You and I have both seen this time and time again.
I wonder if you field as many situations as I do, having to convince clients that when they get off drugs, they can stay pretty close to the same as on? It is so hard to convince them that what they accomplished was due to dedication to the program, not the drugs.

Yup, plus 90% of it is the mindfuck that removing gear brings. Same as when hopping on, guys pin a long ester hormone and by the next day they’re “killing it”. They come off and oh no! That followed by mistakes in diet and training plus hormonal levels in the gutter and you cycled for nothing.

 

[Meetketchup]

Bc PCT is SHIT.
There is nothing "therapeudic" about slamming your system with nolva, clomid, etc... all that does is create a shit storm when your body is already dealing with a hormonal change.

It makes absolutely no sense, even on paper, and even less in reality.

JUST. COME. OFF.
(Or cruise/trt)

The faster your levels drop, the faster your body will notice and adjust. No need to confuse things with 3-5 extra drugs. Smfh

2 things that need to DIE:

1. "Tapering/Pyramiding/Titrating" if you want a list of all the reasons THATS fucking stupid Ill gladly list them.

2. "PCT"

This 100%

 

[heckler7]

I bet you actually gained about 15lbs of water and maybe 3-4 actual lbs

 

[CoachCabo]

I bet you actually gained about 15lbs of water and maybe 3-4 actual lbs

God, you’d hope not on test and tren. But even if so, 3-4lbs of muscle should keep and be very visible.
I’ll just never understand the whole tren trend aside from it being overly hyped everywhere.

 

[heckler7]

God, you’d hope not on test and tren. But even if so, 3-4lbs of muscle should keep and be very visible.
I’ll just never understand the whole tren trend aside from it being overly hyped everywhere.

well to claim gaining 20lbs and then losing 20lbs sounds an awful lot like SD to me

 

[mae_geri]

Twice over, in the course of 1.5 years, I cycled Sustanon + Tren, 12 weeks.
Twice over gains were exceptional, both strength and mass (last time I gained something like 20lbs, mostly lean)
Twice over I did PCT religiously, Clomid + Novaldex, 5 weeks.

Twice over I lost basically all of my gains, and experienced some mild issue with libido.

I wonder what I might be doing wrong, or if perhaps the stack I chose doesn't... stick.
47 years old.

Hints?
Thanks

If you do PCT and wnat to keep your gainz (you will not keep all). You need to be in a calorie surplus and train with the same eager like you did before! That's how I retain all my gainz (well most of it). But after my PCT I decided to to cruise (TRT) after a cycle.

And also a good hint: Check your bloodwork continuously (before, during and after a cycel) to know what's going on and prevent fatigue, low T, bad lipids......

And last but not least...proper PCT......especially in your case, you took Tren and you are over 40, your PCT should be Clomid/Enclom., Nolva., and HCG!

 

[Fletcher]

I start primo oral about 2 weeks before the end of my cycle and run it throughout my cruise. 80mgs/day.
This is a recent protocol but I lost ZERO lbs since my last cycle and even came up a few extra. ??

 

[Fletcher]

Primo's MAIN benefit, what it was designed for, is to prevent muscle wasting/muscle loss. It works. ?

 

[Fletcher]

I prefer the oral version bc it takes effect day one, vs. inject which takes 4-5 weeks due to the enanthate ester.
If using inject, start it 5 weeks out from the end of your cycle. ?