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OK brother, trying to call to your attention that you are adding things in very fast not letting things clear or using strategy. I think I counted 15 drugs and supplements before you ordered you last batch of stuff. some of thee things are going to interact. For instance provolone makes some people wired, not all but some. Almost all drugs have some impact on the nervous system in some way so being too exuberant in adding things in hoping for a fix can just confuse the body and the situation. Good luck.
That's fair and I would say that is also a more effective way of communicating what you wanted than to just call someone neurotic based on 1 post. But I get it, and I agree, that's why I am scaling things back.

I think your last sentence is helpful, because having an impact is relatively broad and wide. Lettuce can be defined as having an impact on the nervous system in some way. That doesn't mean that a mixed salad is more detrimental than eating just cucumbers, for instance. One common approach with top coaches is to not raise doses of a single anabolic or agent to its maximum effective dose, but instead to combine multiple drugs at the minimum effective dose, as those doses are usually clinical and present less harmful side effects combined than a single dose at higher levels. For me, that is not exactly what I am doing right now, as I am trying to keep everything in low doses. But I think we have a lot of evidence that this:

100mg testosterone
200mg primo
10mg trestolone
25mg proviron
1000mg metformin
40mg telmisartan
4iu gh
5iu lantus
5iu log pre and post workout
3000mg l-carnitine
5000mg taurine

is healthier than this:

200mg test
200mg boldenone
or
200mg test
30mg dianabol

One may seem scarier because of volume of drugs, but only one of them is truly scary. The latter combines 2 testosterone derivatives at a higher dose, don't have any prophylactic measures, no anti oxidants, no attention for the synergistic effect of dht, test, and 19-nor derivatives at lower doses. I am in no way saying a beginner should do the former (I don't think they should do the latter either!), but I am saying that a high number of compounds is not a problem simply by definition. It can cause problems of management when you don't know how to manage these things or don't know where the problem is coming from, but that is not a problem of having too many drugs. That is a problem present in other areas of life, as we use elimination diets, for instance, to find out exactly what is the issue. Eating a variety of foods isn't the issue. Not knowing which food is harmful is the issue.



Some shit will mess with BOTH dopamine and serotonin receptors...add to that most of the world is flirting with prescribed meds that do the same. No expert in that but yea, the help here is genuine.
That's true, and it's a common thing with prolonged use of clonazepam (not my case) and adhd meds (my case). So we scaled the dose back, as early in the AM as possible. Unfortunately I cannot function without medication because of my disability, but as much as we can, we are doing that.
My spell check changed pregnenolone to provolone. Provolone is fine to add to the mix. 🙃
I think you should always spell provolone from now on. It makes everything more fun haha
Bro, I'm pretty sure it's your estrogen levels like Bruce said. It's why I don't take Dbol anymore and I love some Dbol. I'm 38 and I'm finding that my body doesn't tolerate AAS nearly as well as it did in my mid 20's.

Go get blood work and have your doctor look at it. If it's estrogen, he's going to want to put you on Arimidex. DONT TAKE IT. Buy yourself some Aromasin from one of the sponsors here. Arimidex is an estrogen crusher. With your estrogen that low, you would also feel like you're feeling now...just shitty, tired, achey et cetera



Sent from my moto g 5G (2022) using Tapatalk
It could very well be my estrogen levels. As Scott Howells says, "hormone action in isolation is meaningless." But to find my optimal ratio and dose, I believe scaling back and managing the A:E balance with proviron is the best route. As you said, with low estrogen I would be feeling how I am feeling now, but somehow lowering estrogen even more with aromasin would be the preferred course of action? That is what doesn't seem to make sense. I can't say how low my E is because it is all relative to my A levels. If androgens are too high and estrogen hasn't been able to keep up, proviron and a lower dose of test would correct the problem. If both androgens and estrogen are high, I would be experiencing different side effects. But again, both personal experience and bloodwork are equally subject to misinterpretation when a variety of compounds are at play. So to lowering everything we go! :)

*****
In the end, despite some disagreements, I believe we all agree with the same thing: too many factors make determining a single factor a more difficult task. We all agree less factors is helpful in diagnosing the problem. I agree entirely. I appreciate the help here, fellas.
In positive news, I had my first good night of sleep since December :D I think we're moving in the right direction.
 
That's fair and I would say that is also a more effective way of communicating what you wanted than to just call someone neurotic based on 1 post. But I get it, and I agree, that's why I am scaling things back.

I think your last sentence is helpful, because having an impact is relatively broad and wide. Lettuce can be defined as having an impact on the nervous system in some way. That doesn't mean that a mixed salad is more detrimental than eating just cucumbers, for instance. One common approach with top coaches is to not raise doses of a single anabolic or agent to its maximum effective dose, but instead to combine multiple drugs at the minimum effective dose, as those doses are usually clinical and present less harmful side effects combined than a single dose at higher levels. For me, that is not exactly what I am doing right now, as I am trying to keep everything in low doses. But I think we have a lot of evidence that this:

100mg testosterone
200mg primo
10mg trestolone
25mg proviron
1000mg metformin
40mg telmisartan
4iu gh
5iu lantus
5iu log pre and post workout
3000mg l-carnitine
5000mg taurine

is healthier than this:

200mg test
200mg boldenone
or
200mg test
30mg dianabol

One may seem scarier because of volume of drugs, but only one of them is truly scary. The latter combines 2 testosterone derivatives at a higher dose, don't have any prophylactic measures, no anti oxidants, no attention for the synergistic effect of dht, test, and 19-nor derivatives at lower doses. I am in no way saying a beginner should do the former (I don't think they should do the latter either!), but I am saying that a high number of compounds is not a problem simply by definition. It can cause problems of management when you don't know how to manage these things or don't know where the problem is coming from, but that is not a problem of having too many drugs. That is a problem present in other areas of life, as we use elimination diets, for instance, to find out exactly what is the issue. Eating a variety of foods isn't the issue. Not knowing which food is harmful is the issue.

That's true, and it's a common thing with prolonged use of clonazepam (not my case) and adhd meds (my case). So we scaled the dose back, as early in the AM as possible. Unfortunately I cannot function without medication because of my disability, but as much as we can, we are doing that.

I think you should always spell provolone from now on. It makes everything more fun haha

It could very well be my estrogen levels. As Scott Howells says, "hormone action in isolation is meaningless." But to find my optimal ratio and dose, I believe scaling back and managing the A:E balance with proviron is the best route. As you said, with low estrogen I would be feeling how I am feeling now, but somehow lowering estrogen even more with aromasin would be the preferred course of action? That is what doesn't seem to make sense. I can't say how low my E is because it is all relative to my A levels. If androgens are too high and estrogen hasn't been able to keep up, proviron and a lower dose of test would correct the problem. If both androgens and estrogen are high, I would be experiencing different side effects. But again, both personal experience and bloodwork are equally subject to misinterpretation when a variety of compounds are at play. So to lowering everything we go! :)

*****
In the end, despite some disagreements, I believe we all agree with the same thing: too many factors make determining a single factor a more difficult task. We all agree less factors is helpful in diagnosing the problem. I agree entirely. I appreciate the help here, fellas.
In positive news, I had my first good night of sleep since December :D I think we're moving in the right direction.
Your estrogen is too high is what I was saying.

Not sure how you didn't understand that. Why would I recommend lowering your estrogen if it's already low? High estrogen can 100% cause sleep loss. It's happened to me and it's probably what's affecting you.

I was stating that if you lower your estrogen too low (with taking Arimidex instead of Aromasin), you may feel how you feel now, minus the horrible sleep.

Sent from my moto g 5G (2022) using Tapatalk
 
So I gotta ask, because I swear I saw bupropion, sorry if I missed it, but how many mg per day are you taking? I must tell you my horror story, got put on 300mg per day bupropion and ended up so manic and underslept that I actually lost sense of reality...I mean really lost it... Ended up with a 72hr hold on my ass thinking I was actually going crazy... Got lowered down to 100mg per day and it works, still very energetic, but not RUINING my sleep.
 
Bear with me, please. Here's my current stack for the past 7 weeks.

30mg test e subq ED (2xBW/kg)
5iu R 3x day
4iu GH before sleep (literally hasn't changed a single thing in sleep quality. At all. Even bumped to 8iu and got nothing)
500mcg BPC157 ED
500mcg TB500 ED (both peptides going for 10 weeks rn)
(almost a copy of Broderick Chavez's recovery protocol. Got 10lbs just with PT and light workouts from this.)

Week 2-3 I felt pretty decent. Sex drive was through the roof and a lot of energy. Week 4 onwards libido went down and so did energy levels (I believe this has more to do with life stressors than my protocol).
My injury has been progressing faster than I anticipated. But there are a few things that are just getting worse and worse. Here are the problems and how I've been dealing with them:
  • Elevated BP (Dystolic consistently in higher 80's, sometimes 90's. Systolic in 120-139)
    • Ayush Carditone 3x day
    • Higher water intake
    • Shit ton of green tea
    • 5mg Cialis
  • Anxiety and overall tension
    • .5mg Clonazepam 2x day
    • Reduced work hours
    • Unlimited sleep (more on this later)
  • 7 day RHR avg went from high 40's to high 60's.
  • 7 day HRV avg went from 60's to low 30's!!!
And the big problem:
  • Sleep went from 8h average to 6h average.
  • REM went from 1:30h average per night to 30min average!!!
Tried to fix this with:
12mg Melatonin sublingual
100mg 5HTP
1000mg Glycine
Gorilla Sleep
Delta 8
25mg Benadryl

This helps me fall asleep quickly (don't take delta anymore), great. That's not the problem. My whole life I struggled with falling asleep. Now the problem is different: I CANT FUCKING STAY ASLEEP. I wake up, wired as shit. Oftentimes HR is over 80bpm as soon as I open my eyes. No nightmares, no big things going on that I have to wake up to, not having massive boners (just regular ones), not needing to pee like crazy. Just. Fucking. Awake.

I changed injection frequency, started injecting as early in the day as possible, no screens no stimulus before bed, and here I am. Waking up for no reason AND having shitty sleep quality.

I wake up feeling like a saggy big old duffle bag of shit (iykyk). Tired all fucking day long. The only spark of energy I feel is when I workout, which I can do no problem.
Sometimes I wake up hungry, though my glucose levels are just fine and I'm eating 600kcals over maintenance. Not eating a ton before bed, or doing so, no difference.

I'm kinda running out of options here. I am suspecting there's an issue with the regulation of my dopamine system. So the next step is, in my mind, supplementing with DHEA, DIM, Pregnenolone, and potentially HCG. If that doesn't fix it, then I'd think I need a rather pricey stack of blood panels ordered to see if there's something else that could be going on.

I've been on ADHD meds for years and since starting bupropion I haven't had the need to take it. I feel better, more regulated, stable, but I am still wired as shit. I can't even handle 100mg Moldafinil without pacing and shaking.

*****
TLDR: Sleep is progressively getting worse on TRT; less REM, deep, and length of sleep; tired af always; can fall asleep fine but can't stay asleep; can't nap bc wired during the day even without stimulants. Not sure what to do, please help.
Try more melatonin, but add time release with the sublingual. I take 40mg time release 30-60 mins before going to be. Then 30-40 mg quick sublingual right as I lay down. TRT doc and had me experiment with various dose using both types because I was waking wide awake a few hrs into sleep. Also try GABA helps slow the mind down.
 
Your estrogen is too high is what I was saying.

Not sure how you didn't understand that. Why would I recommend lowering your estrogen if it's already low? High estrogen can 100% cause sleep loss. It's happened to me and it's probably what's affecting you.

I was stating that if you lower your estrogen too low (with taking Arimidex instead of Aromasin), you may feel how you feel now, minus the horrible sleep.

Sent from my moto g 5G (2022) using Tapatalk
I understood what you were saying. Because endocrinology 101, I reject the premise that one hormone in isolation can be deemed too high or too low. Markers in isolation are as useless as specific bloodwork markers during polypharmacy.

It could be too high, could be too low. The only thing I know are the side effects. And they don't seem to line up with estrogens being too high.
So I gotta ask, because I swear I saw bupropion, sorry if I missed it, but how many mg per day are you taking? I must tell you my horror story, got put on 300mg per day bupropion and ended up so manic and underslept that I actually lost sense of reality...I mean really lost it... Ended up with a 72hr hold on my ass thinking I was actually going crazy... Got lowered down to 100mg per day and it works, still very energetic, but not RUINING my sleep.
Bupropion didn't work for me either. Not a fun experience at all. I stopped taking it and things improved significantly.
Try more melatonin, but add time release with the sublingual. I take 40mg time release 30-60 mins before going to be. Then 30-40 mg quick sublingual right as I lay down. TRT doc and had me experiment with various dose using both types because I was waking wide awake a few hrs into sleep. Also try GABA helps slow the mind down.
I've tried megadosing melatonin but it ended up giving me depression symptoms. I've tweaked my sleep support stack and things improved a lot.

******

Here's an update, two weeks after changes. I've been sleeping fine, with some very good night's here and there. Overall my system seems to be regulated once again. I'm only on 90mg test and I will titrate it to 120mg in two weeks if I continue to feel fine. Libido and erection quality suffered a bit, but mental clarity, focus, and energy levels are up. All while being able to sleep and even take naps!

Protocol that seems to have solved my problems is:
90mg test e ew
25mg proviron ed
7ius R 3x day
3iu GH before sleep

Supplement stack is:
3g agmatine before daily fasted cardio
600mg L l-theanine 3x day
600mg NAC 2x day
7g vitamin C
2g fish oil
2g taurine before and 2g after workout
5mg Cialis before bed
600mg ALA
300mg DIM 2x day
40mg pregnenolone 2x day
50mg DHEA 2x day
1.4g resveratrol


Before bed:
2g GABA
1.5G NMN
30mg Zinc
420mg Magnesium
50mg P5P
300mg 5HTP
100mg Apigenin
1g L-tryptophan
500mg Inositol
Carditone

The protocol also lowered my resistance to stimulate drastically. Agmatine, pregnenolone, Theanine, and NAC are the main players that brought me from 20mg Adderall to just 2.5mg. It truly helped me a lot.

Overall I think things are heading in the right direction. If feeling good I'll once again do blood work in a few weeks.

Should be specially interesting as I'm going to test my GH again. Tested SubQ and results were very disappointing. So I'll be doing IV which should remove all shadow of doubt about it.
 
I guess you didn't ask for help. My fault.

Good luck figuring it out bro!

Sent from my moto g 5G (2022) using Tapatalk
 
Fam, big update. I'm sleeping well. Officially. Hard to have a bad night sleep now actually. Sleeping better than before so that's great.
I'm at 30mg test e eod, 25mg proviron daily, r 7iu 3x day, and 3iu GH before sleep. Making gains, sleeping good, so I'm happy.
I'll run bloodwork soon and will update what my parameters look like for everyone here.
 
I understood what you were saying. Because endocrinology 101, I reject the premise that one hormone in isolation can be deemed too high or too low. Markers in isolation are as useless as specific bloodwork markers during polypharmacy.

It could be too high, could be too low. The only thing I know are the side effects. And they don't seem to line up with estrogens being too high.

Bupropion didn't work for me either. Not a fun experience at all. I stopped taking it and things improved significantly.

I've tried megadosing melatonin but it ended up giving me depression symptoms. I've tweaked my sleep support stack and things improved a lot.

******

Here's an update, two weeks after changes. I've been sleeping fine, with some very good night's here and there. Overall my system seems to be regulated once again. I'm only on 90mg test and I will titrate it to 120mg in two weeks if I continue to feel fine. Libido and erection quality suffered a bit, but mental clarity, focus, and energy levels are up. All while being able to sleep and even take naps!

Protocol that seems to have solved my problems is:
90mg test e ew
25mg proviron ed
7ius R 3x day
3iu GH before sleep

Supplement stack is:
3g agmatine before daily fasted cardio
600mg L l-theanine 3x day
600mg NAC 2x day
7g vitamin C
2g fish oil
2g taurine before and 2g after workout
5mg Cialis before bed
600mg ALA
300mg DIM 2x day
40mg pregnenolone 2x day
50mg DHEA 2x day
1.4g resveratrol


Before bed:
2g GABA
1.5G NMN
30mg Zinc
420mg Magnesium
50mg P5P
300mg 5HTP
100mg Apigenin
1g L-tryptophan
500mg Inositol
Carditone

The protocol also lowered my resistance to stimulate drastically. Agmatine, pregnenolone, Theanine, and NAC are the main players that brought me from 20mg Adderall to just 2.5mg. It truly helped me a lot.

Overall I think things are heading in the right direction. If feeling good I'll once again do blood work in a few weeks.

Should be specially interesting as I'm going to test my GH again. Tested SubQ and results were very disappointing. So I'll be doing IV which should remove all shadow of doubt about it.
Don't shoot that GH IV man!!

I know you meant IM, but it's still funny...

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