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7w on TRT=7w Shitty Sleep (Help)

R

Remi Hull

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Get Shredded!
Bear with me, please. Here's my current stack for the past 7 weeks.

30mg test e subq ED (2xBW/kg)
5iu R 3x day
4iu GH before sleep (literally hasn't changed a single thing in sleep quality. At all. Even bumped to 8iu and got nothing)
500mcg BPC157 ED
500mcg TB500 ED (both peptides going for 10 weeks rn)
(almost a copy of Broderick Chavez's recovery protocol. Got 10lbs just with PT and light workouts from this.)

Week 2-3 I felt pretty decent. Sex drive was through the roof and a lot of energy. Week 4 onwards libido went down and so did energy levels (I believe this has more to do with life stressors than my protocol).
My injury has been progressing faster than I anticipated. But there are a few things that are just getting worse and worse. Here are the problems and how I've been dealing with them:
  • Elevated BP (Dystolic consistently in higher 80's, sometimes 90's. Systolic in 120-139)
    • Ayush Carditone 3x day
    • Higher water intake
    • Shit ton of green tea
    • 5mg Cialis
  • Anxiety and overall tension
    • .5mg Clonazepam 2x day
    • Reduced work hours
    • Unlimited sleep (more on this later)
  • 7 day RHR avg went from high 40's to high 60's.
  • 7 day HRV avg went from 60's to low 30's!!!
And the big problem:
  • Sleep went from 8h average to 6h average.
  • REM went from 1:30h average per night to 30min average!!!
Tried to fix this with:
12mg Melatonin sublingual
100mg 5HTP
1000mg Glycine
Gorilla Sleep
Delta 8
25mg Benadryl

This helps me fall asleep quickly (don't take delta anymore), great. That's not the problem. My whole life I struggled with falling asleep. Now the problem is different: I CANT FUCKING STAY ASLEEP. I wake up, wired as shit. Oftentimes HR is over 80bpm as soon as I open my eyes. No nightmares, no big things going on that I have to wake up to, not having massive boners (just regular ones), not needing to pee like crazy. Just. Fucking. Awake.

I changed injection frequency, started injecting as early in the day as possible, no screens no stimulus before bed, and here I am. Waking up for no reason AND having shitty sleep quality.

I wake up feeling like a saggy big old duffle bag of shit (iykyk). Tired all fucking day long. The only spark of energy I feel is when I workout, which I can do no problem.
Sometimes I wake up hungry, though my glucose levels are just fine and I'm eating 600kcals over maintenance. Not eating a ton before bed, or doing so, no difference.

I'm kinda running out of options here. I am suspecting there's an issue with the regulation of my dopamine system. So the next step is, in my mind, supplementing with DHEA, DIM, Pregnenolone, and potentially HCG. If that doesn't fix it, then I'd think I need a rather pricey stack of blood panels ordered to see if there's something else that could be going on.

I've been on ADHD meds for years and since starting bupropion I haven't had the need to take it. I feel better, more regulated, stable, but I am still wired as shit. I can't even handle 100mg Moldafinil without pacing and shaking.

*****
TLDR: Sleep is progressively getting worse on TRT; less REM, deep, and length of sleep; tired af always; can fall asleep fine but can't stay asleep; can't nap bc wired during the day even without stimulants. Not sure what to do, please help.
 
Are you taking anything to control your estrogen? Wild guess is that your E is high. I have the same issues (can’t stay asleep) when my E is out of range. Try an Ai and it should help, it does for me. Otherwise wait until you pull bloods.
 
Have you tried relaxing and meditating. Drugs aren't always the solution i find.
 
taking all the shit, no wander you got problems bro. keep taking that and you gonna have forever problems.

As far as gh goes. That takes months to do anything. 2Iu.
 
whered u get the gh? 8iu gh and poor sleep doesnt sound too plausible outside of a megablast
 
BBruce said:
Are you taking anything to control your estrogen? Wild guess is that your E is high. I have the same issues (can’t stay asleep) when my E is out of range. Try an Ai and it should help, it does for me. Otherwise wait until you pull bloods.
Click to expand...
I've taken aromasin 3x when my gyno flared. It usually flares up when E is higher, and it's under control. But that is a possibility, I just don't see how it'd relate to sleep (perhaps indirectly).
ruffus said:
Have you tried relaxing and meditating. Drugs aren't always the solution i find.
Click to expand...
I actually never thought about relaxing as a way to avoid stress and anxiety. I'll give that a try today...
LiverKing01 said:
taking all the shit, no wander you got problems bro. keep taking that and you gonna have forever problems.

As far as gh goes. That takes months to do anything. 2Iu.
Click to expand...
By "all that shit" you mean a bunch of herbs, couple peptides, and test?
You said keep taking "that." What exactly is "that" and why do you think "that" is the cause of the problem? I feel like bioidentical hormones and supplements tend to put less stress on my body than, let's say 20 weeks of deca, test, and maybe adding some tren in the mix ;)
Astro95 said:
RHR in the 40s? God I’m doing great when mine is in the low 70s
Click to expand...
Valdosta said:
I routinely see mine get in triple digits ?
Click to expand...
Ok this is not good folks haha I'm not a bodybuilder, though.
It's also not the number per se that bothers me, but the fact that rises in RHR and drops in HRV are signs of acute fatigue and I am having a hard time locating where the fatigue is coming from.
Valdosta said:
whered u get the gh? 8iu gh and poor sleep doesnt sound too plausible outside of a megablast
Click to expand...
GH is from SB Labs.
 
Remi Hull said:
I've taken aromasin 3x when my gyno flared. It usually flares up when E is higher, and it's under control. But that is a possibility, I just don't see how it'd relate to sleep (perhaps indirectly).
Click to expand...
Estrogen out of range can effect sleep, it does for me and getting it under control with an AI helps me every time.

You’re taking 210mg Test a week, most ppl do need something to control E on that dose. It’s not a big dose but it’s on the higher side for TRT.
 
Every night I take ashwagandha, zinc, vitamin d, magnesium complex, melatonin, and sometimes z quill. It helps for sure.
 
Couple things could be going on…..any time you use exogenous hormones, there will be an increase in sympathetic drive from adrenergic response. Could have underlying sleep apnea that has been exacerbated by adding in the test which could hypertrophy tissue in the airway. The BP could also be related to potential sleep apnea or just from increased estrogen. Blood work and a sleep study would be needed to rule these things out.
 
One thing I've been noticing about a lot of these new guy questions lately is people will answer their questions and give suggestions but they're usually met with a smartass reply from whichever OP or no reply at all. Makes a man not wanna bother.
 
BBruce said:
Estrogen out of range can effect sleep, it does for me and getting it under control with an AI helps me every time.

You’re taking 210mg Test a week, most ppl do need something to control E on that dose. It’s not a big dose but it’s on the higher side for TRT.
Click to expand...
You're right. I've decided to lower the test dose.
220 said:
There are too many variables to tell. Pull bloods and report back.
Click to expand...
Pulling them this week!
GasmanX said:
Couple things could be going on…..any time you use exogenous hormones, there will be an increase in sympathetic drive from adrenergic response. Could have underlying sleep apnea that has been exacerbated by adding in the test which could hypertrophy tissue in the airway. The BP could also be related to potential sleep apnea or just from increased estrogen. Blood work and a sleep study would be needed to rule these things out.
Click to expand...
I am hoping I'll be able to get a sleep study by the end of this year.
 
Alright so posting an update here. I started supplementing with DHEA, DIM, and Pregnenolone. I also raised Glycine to 3g before bed and removed Gorilla Dream and Melatonin. I am sleeping somewhat better, but things are still shitty. I have gotten a cold twice since my last post, so I got a pretty decent BW panel coming up. Ordered DHEA, Estrogens, Pregnenolone, DHEA-S, IGF-1, LH/FSH, Progesterone, Prolactin, Cortisol, SHBG, TSH, T4, T3 uptake, Standard and free test, CBC, Liopids, CMP, hs-CRP, Estradiol, HBa1c, GH serum, Iron, Hepatic function, and urinalysis.
I am hoping something will stick out from this. Because the supplements seem to be helping, and I can now sleep longer though the quality is still bad, I am betting on the dopaminergic system being off.
Because I think this could be helpful for other people, I will post the results as soon as I get them. Should also be fun to see what Bioactive's test, SB's GH, and P Labs' Anavar is doing to my system ;)

Side question: why is Bioactive no longer in the forum? :unsure:
 
Alright fellas, bloodwork is here. Nothing really jumping out with regards to sleep. (1) I am having low estrogen symptoms and yet my Estrogens are 1852pg/mL. That may seem high in isolation, but with test over 1300 it doesn't necessarily mean so. It's about the A:E ratio, and given that I have no acne, gyno, water retention, etc, it makes me think my A:E balance is off towards the E being too low. Estradiol is 43.7pg/mL, which is also not absurdly high.

Now, regarding sleep, a few things to note are (2) high lead levels and (3) low DHEA, Pregnenolone, and SHBG.

1) As a way to get a better look at this, I am bringing my test from 180mg/week to 60mg/week and adding 25mg proviron a day. Proviron should bind to the SHBG nicely and help correct the A:E ratio. Lowering the test and then upping it every 2-3 weeks would give me a better idea of where the optimal test range is for me.

To make the changes faster I will skip my test pins for the week, only injecting 60mg 4 days after my last pin and 5 days before the next one.

2) Given my lifestyle, lead levels will always be elevated. It's just part of the job. 14ug/dL is not extremely high, but there is a lot of evidence about sleep quality being affected at levels as low as 5ug/dL, and lethargy, memory, mood issues all being well documented past 10ug/dL.

To correct this I will be adding air filters, changing workplace, not eating or drinking in workplace, and working with masks and gloves. I will give it a couple of months and see if that makes anything better. Should be more than enough to lower this well under 10ug/dL.

3) To correct this, I am now supplementing with 100mg DHEA, 20mg Pregnenolone, and 600mg DIM.

In addition to these changes, I am also lowering my stimulants. Having ADHD I cannot function without my meds, but I am lowering the dose and taking a shorter halflife option as a way to minimize wakefulness in the evening periods.

Lastly, my T4 has always been low-ish, so I will start T4 at 1.3mcg/kg-bw to bring it a tad bit up in the reference range.

Hopefully these changes make a difference and if they do, I will report them here so others can benefit from my experience.
 
You sound like borderline neurotic. You're changing things by the day and trying to reach out to other random people asking why you aren't feeling better. I really don't think anyone here except you can help you. You're a neurotic mess seeking some higher plain of health by adding in large numbers of drugs and supplements randomly with no plan at all ... and you're not a bodybuilder so who knows even if you are training or what your diet is like. Wondering it you're a troll.
 
Glycomann said:
You sound like borderline neurotic. You're changing things by the day and trying to reach out to other random people asking why you aren't feeling better. I really don't think anyone here except you can help you. You're a neurotic mess seeking some higher plain of health by adding in large numbers of drugs and supplements randomly with no plan at all ... and you're not a bodybuilder so who knows even if you are training or what your diet is like. Wondering it you're a troll.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the accusations. I went over the thread again and I couldn't find any evidence that I am changing things up weekly, let alone daily, so I not what gave you that impression. I apologize for misleading you if I did that in any way. To not be verbose, I started TRT+ and have made 2 changes since I started it, one planned and one in response to bloods.

I would respond more but you haven't said anything meaningful so I'll pass on just trading online jabs in writing because ain't nobody got time for that ;)
 
Get Shredded!
When I jumped out of TRT i was guilty of having just flat out too much shit running to figure out the net of what was, and wasn't working. I too had incredible sex drive for a few weeks, and it declined to libido issues. For me, my E2 and adrenal fatigue was killing my gains. Took a big step back and simplified my shit. Moved back on the peptides and the supplements. Went basic and just Test for a few weeks, adjusted my high e2 with arimidex, which didn't make me feel like shit and my libido improved. Might want to look into cycling your peptides, you can build up a tolerance with some I believe. You do seem to have a lot of knobs turning on your protocol.
 
nightwing said:
When I jumped out of TRT i was guilty of having just flat out too much shit running to figure out the net of what was, and wasn't working. I too had incredible sex drive for a few weeks, and it declined to libido issues. For me, my E2 and adrenal fatigue was killing my gains. Took a big step back and simplified my shit. Moved back on the peptides and the supplements. Went basic and just Test for a few weeks, adjusted my high e2 with arimidex, which didn't make me feel like shit and my libido improved. Might want to look into cycling your peptides, you can build up a tolerance with some I believe. You do seem to have a lot of knobs turning on your protocol.
Click to expand...
I see that, I am removing variables now. Peptides have been out of the picture going on a month now, so all I am taking is 180mg of test and 10mg anavar (just two knobs). It was 10 weeks of BPC and TB, but I am off them for almost 5 weeks on. Don't think they did anything so I don't plan on going back on them for the foreseeable future.

I am skipping adding an AI as of now because I don't have high E symptoms and I don't want to risk side effects of something unknown right now.

I think things will clear up with a lower test dose and I'll be able to build from there. Glad to see you had a similar experience and the step back helped bring you back to baseline. May I ask, what dose were you taking when things went south and what is your maximum dose as of now? I've responded super well to pretty much anything I've taken in the past, except for testosterone.
 
I moved from 150mg/week Test C to more of a cycle with 250 Test C and 100mg of Deca. that was doing fine and I bumped to 400 Test C and 200 Dec and shit went downhill, though the 4 weeks of feeling on top of the world is what I'm sure lots of people get into chasing. I felt incredible, joints opened up, my strength was up, started rounding out some muscle and dumped some body fat during that month. Learned that it's not a race, and at my age 52 - I don't need to pile on too many things. I did spend some time checking out orals and how i responded. Proviron and Anavar are good to me, and my last bloods my liver and cholesterol were not wrecked.

That was awhile ago. Im doing some things differently now.
 
nightwing said:
I moved from 150mg/week Test C to more of a cycle with 250 Test C and 100mg of Deca. that was doing fine and I bumped to 400 Test C and 200 Dec and shit went downhill, though the 4 weeks of feeling on top of the world is what I'm sure lots of people get into chasing. I felt incredible, joints opened up, my strength was up, started rounding out some muscle and dumped some body fat during that month. Learned that it's not a race, and at my age 52 - I don't need to pile on too many things. I did spend some time checking out orals and how i responded. Proviron and Anavar are good to me, and my last bloods my liver and cholesterol were not wrecked.

That was awhile ago. Im doing some things differently now.\
Click to expand...
This gives me a lot of hope. Though I ramped my doses up 30mg at a time, I will do so even slower this next time. I think I reached an optimal point and blew right past it as I was trying to reach what is generally speaking a safe dose for most people (2-3mg/kg). But as you said, not a race, so slow and steady will do just fine.
 
and my E2 also skyrocketed cause I was closer to 20% bf compared to where I am now, came back like at if I remember like 130. Spicy nips and gyno indeed.
 
nightwing said:
and my E2 also skyrocketed cause I was closer to 20% bf compared to where I am now, came back like at if I remember like 130. Spicy nips and gyno indeed.
Click to expand...
I'm glad my nips are fine now. Gyno only flared early on but it is stable now. BF at 16% atm. At least something is working well lol
 
Remi Hull said:
Thank you for the accusations. I went over the thread again and I couldn't find any evidence that I am changing things up weekly, let alone daily, so I not what gave you that impression. I apologize for misleading you if I did that in any way. To not be verbose, I started TRT+ and have made 2 changes since I started it, one planned and one in response to bloods.

I would respond more but you haven't said anything meaningful so I'll pass on just trading online jabs in writing because ain't nobody got time for that ;)
Click to expand...
OK brother, trying to call to your attention that you are adding things in very fast not letting things clear or using strategy. I think I counted 15 drugs and supplements before you ordered you last batch of stuff. some of thee things are going to interact. For instance provolone makes some people wired, not all but some. Almost all drugs have some impact on the nervous system in some way so being too exuberant in adding things in hoping for a fix can just confuse the body and the situation. Good luck.
 
Some shit will mess with BOTH dopamine and serotonin receptors...add to that most of the world is flirting with prescribed meds that do the same. No expert in that but yea, the help here is genuine.
 
Remi Hull said:
Bear with me, please. Here's my current stack for the past 7 weeks.

30mg test e subq ED (2xBW/kg)
5iu R 3x day
4iu GH before sleep (literally hasn't changed a single thing in sleep quality. At all. Even bumped to 8iu and got nothing)
500mcg BPC157 ED
500mcg TB500 ED (both peptides going for 10 weeks rn)
(almost a copy of Broderick Chavez's recovery protocol. Got 10lbs just with PT and light workouts from this.)

Week 2-3 I felt pretty decent. Sex drive was through the roof and a lot of energy. Week 4 onwards libido went down and so did energy levels (I believe this has more to do with life stressors than my protocol).
My injury has been progressing faster than I anticipated. But there are a few things that are just getting worse and worse. Here are the problems and how I've been dealing with them:
  • Elevated BP (Dystolic consistently in higher 80's, sometimes 90's. Systolic in 120-139)
    • Ayush Carditone 3x day
    • Higher water intake
    • Shit ton of green tea
    • 5mg Cialis
  • Anxiety and overall tension
    • .5mg Clonazepam 2x day
    • Reduced work hours
    • Unlimited sleep (more on this later)
  • 7 day RHR avg went from high 40's to high 60's.
  • 7 day HRV avg went from 60's to low 30's!!!
And the big problem:
  • Sleep went from 8h average to 6h average.
  • REM went from 1:30h average per night to 30min average!!!
Tried to fix this with:
12mg Melatonin sublingual
100mg 5HTP
1000mg Glycine
Gorilla Sleep
Delta 8
25mg Benadryl

This helps me fall asleep quickly (don't take delta anymore), great. That's not the problem. My whole life I struggled with falling asleep. Now the problem is different: I CANT FUCKING STAY ASLEEP. I wake up, wired as shit. Oftentimes HR is over 80bpm as soon as I open my eyes. No nightmares, no big things going on that I have to wake up to, not having massive boners (just regular ones), not needing to pee like crazy. Just. Fucking. Awake.

I changed injection frequency, started injecting as early in the day as possible, no screens no stimulus before bed, and here I am. Waking up for no reason AND having shitty sleep quality.

I wake up feeling like a saggy big old duffle bag of shit (iykyk). Tired all fucking day long. The only spark of energy I feel is when I workout, which I can do no problem.
Sometimes I wake up hungry, though my glucose levels are just fine and I'm eating 600kcals over maintenance. Not eating a ton before bed, or doing so, no difference.

I'm kinda running out of options here. I am suspecting there's an issue with the regulation of my dopamine system. So the next step is, in my mind, supplementing with DHEA, DIM, Pregnenolone, and potentially HCG. If that doesn't fix it, then I'd think I need a rather pricey stack of blood panels ordered to see if there's something else that could be going on.

I've been on ADHD meds for years and since starting bupropion I haven't had the need to take it. I feel better, more regulated, stable, but I am still wired as shit. I can't even handle 100mg Moldafinil without pacing and shaking.

*****
TLDR: Sleep is progressively getting worse on TRT; less REM, deep, and length of sleep; tired af always; can fall asleep fine but can't stay asleep; can't nap bc wired during the day even without stimulants. Not sure what to do, please help.
Click to expand...
Bro, I'm pretty sure it's your estrogen levels like Bruce said. It's why I don't take Dbol anymore and I love some Dbol. I'm 38 and I'm finding that my body doesn't tolerate AAS nearly as well as it did in my mid 20's.

Go get blood work and have your doctor look at it. If it's estrogen, he's going to want to put you on Arimidex. DONT TAKE IT. Buy yourself some Aromasin from one of the sponsors here. Arimidex is an estrogen crusher. With your estrogen that low, you would also feel like you're feeling now...just shitty, tired, achey et cetera



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