Virgin Muscle Pin

[Ogre]

So... I've read a great deal on this forum and others. But I also really believe everyone's body is completely different so no matter what happened for YOU, it might not work for me. I've read about "virgin muscle" pins. I've heard people say that the first time you pin a muscle it's bad, but your muscle will "get used to it." However, I know that's now how science works. If I could "get used to it," I would have gotten used to pain a long time ago and wouldn't be in pain all the time. I've also read about how some compounds turn to crystals in your body and those are the source of the pain. I've also read that perhaps your body makes more receptors, and that's how the pain is reduced.

This thread will be my experience with virgin muscle and pain. I don't pretend to know everything. I don't pretend to be giving advice. What happens for me might happen for you, or it might never happen for you. I would put the obligatory statement about "this is not medical advice," but if you're reading random Internet forums for medical advice... well, you probably understand the "health care" system in the US better than most... but that's not what this post is about!

Next up, the "about me" section. Everyone always asks, so I'll put that here. If you're bored, go read something else, I'm not making you read this. I'm writing this because I want to share my experience. Anyway... I'm in my 50s. I would say I'm very healthy (especially compared to so many fatties I see out there. Sorry, but I call em like I see em). I was not athletic when I was a kid. Instead I was a total geek. That likely has effected me in bad ways even today (for example, my hamstrings are too short). I fixed all that when I joined the Marines. That, however, was a very long time ago.

I've gone to the gym on and off for most of my life (since the Marines). About a decade ago, I got into running. It didn't take me took long to realize that I couldn't find the right balance between running and the gym (something about having trouble running for 3-4 days after leg day). I gave up the gym for a bit and went to all running. I did pretty good: I was running 40-60 miles a week and would regularly run half marathons. A couple years ago, my body suddenly decided it didn't like endurance any more. I just found it harder and harder to run distances. So, I've cut back and moved back into the gym. My wife tells me I need to "moderate" in the gym. When I give her a confused look, she says I should lift less weight. I try to explain to her that if I wanted to lift less, I don't need to go to the gym. She doesn't understand that if you're in a gym you should always be lifting the maximum amount of weight possible at all times. I can't see going to a gym and not doing that. Maybe in another 10-15 years.

But that's not what this post is about, it's about virgin muscle pinning.

Oh, but the final bits about me: I'm 6'1 and around 195-205. I think I look healthy, but I've no washboard abs (did I mention I'm over 50?). At the same time, I don't have a massive spare tire, either. I've done a few cycles with oral steroids. They have been okay, but my stomach really doesn't like them. After a few weeks I'm eating more Tums than my Dad after a pepperoni pizza. They also give me absolutely horrible calf pumps, which makes running even harder than normal. I know some people really don't like orals, but this thread isn't about orals vs. non-orals, it's about pinning in a virgin muscle.

Also, while I don't like needles, I can man up. However, I do have a low threshold for pain. Now, that doesn't mean I'm a wimp about pain. I've been in pain for decades. The doctors always look at me funny when I say, "If I ever wake up and I'm not in pain, I'll just assume I'm in heaven." When I say that I have a "low threshold," that just means I feel pain easily. I'm no pro baseball player who's going to sit on the bench for a week when I stub my toe: I'm going to suck it up and keep doing what needs to be done. But I AM going to know I'm in pain. Also, things like Tylenol and Advil don't really work for me.

Anyway, soon I'm going to get to the virgin muscle bit.

I've decided to start the pins. After lots of reading and research, I'm going with 400mg of Test E/wk. Again, based on lots of reading, the simple way seems best. That's a nice, easy two pins a week with 0.8ml (250mg/ml) on Monday morning and Thursday evening. I have had absolutely awesome supplies and service from three different vendors here! But now, after researching lots of pinning locations and watching videos, I'm still not 100% sure where to pin.

Initially, I'm going with the side-ass shot. That's what I'm calling the ventrogluteal location. Of course, I've only got two of those (side asses), so I can't do that every time. I've read about the delts as a common location, but I'm worried about the crippling pain there. I'm an office worker, so I don't need to move around a lot, but I'm just not a fan. So what else do I have? I have regular ass, but I don't have anyone to help me. I might have to use that, but I'm just not sure about how the hell I'm going to aspirate the injection while stabbing myself from behind. But I might have to try that. In the meantime, I'm looking at the thighs.

Everything about the thigh location seems good. I can see them quite easily. They're right there, I can reach with either hand. I'm not massive (yet), but I can see the muscle easily. It should be a good target. But oh, there's warnings from people! There are people who will never, ever inject there! But hey, what if that idea about virgin muscles getting used to shots (remember that? That's the topic of this thread)? I guess I'm going to find out.

So, the plan is to start with a side ass shot on the first Monday, then switch to the other thigh for the first Thursday. The next Monday will the the other thigh, then back to the other side ass (going for the weak side when I've done 3 shots so hopefully I'll have the hang of it). I'm not sure if just 4 locations is enough, so I'm thinking going to rear ass for pin #5, but let's get through the first few and we'll see where it goes.

Perhaps that's long enough for a single post, so that's the setup. For the next post, I'll share my experiences with those first couple shots and how things went (I'm actually over a week into this, so I won't need to wait until next Monday to post more)!

 

[Astro95]

Loved the post and how it got derailed and kept getting reminded “that’s not what this post is about” yet I’ll keep talking about this not that haha great stuff.

4 injection sites are more than enough for the volume and frequency of injection you’re aiming for. Obviously the more sites the better, but 4 is good. You’re really only pinning each one once every 2 weeks.

I’m one of those who’ll never pin thighs and it’s not because virgin muscle eventually gets used to the pins which it does, but because there’s a lot of nerves down there, that’ll cripple you for a good while if you happen to hit them. Heard many stories of guys pinning them forever and ever with no issues, but one day that one pin left them without being able to walk for days.

My job doesn’t give me the luxury of being out of service especially due to an injection haha, but I’ve you can pin them successfully power to you. I like the upper pecs, very visible and straight forward.

What gauges and length needles will you be using?

 

[Ogre]

Thanks, Astro95, for the ideas and advice! As for the needles, I've got 1 inch needles. For the draw I have an 18 and injection is a 22 (I think, I'm not sitting near them at the moment). I might have to consider pecs (as you will see as the saga continues!):

So Monday comes. I am ready. No, really, I'm ready. I have watched at least 4 videos 27 times each about locating the side ass. I've spent time flexing the muscle to be sure I've got it correct. I've watched videos with skeletal drawings showing where the nerves are, where the main veins are, and where the muscles attaches. I almost drew with the marker like I saw in some videos, but figured that was just a little too much. I know where that muscle is and where it goes (and where's it's been).

I have gear. I spent a few months researching and learning. I know what I need. I know how much I need (though it did take me some time to figure out the mg/ml thing, I don't know why). I have opened syringes and needles and practiced attaching and detaching. I have the alcohol rubs. I have the gear (absolutely awesome service from Purity Labs here!). I am ready to go.

I've watched a dozen videos about TRT and how to draw liquid into a needle. I've watched at least a dozen people prepare needles and inject themselves. I've looked at and considered the auto-injectors and rejected them. I've watched other videos about how to make the injection pain-free. I am ready.

So, Monday morning, at 6am, I grab the stuff and just do it. No, really. I didn't waste any time playing around, I just grabbed it up, followed the instructions, and bam, I was done. That was it. I followed the instructions and I didn't even feel the needle. Injected everything, no worries. Let's go!

I used a massage gun to try and massage the spot, as I read that would be a good thing. No pain at all. Things are great. I go out for a run, and no worries. I thought running would help, too, to spread the stuff out so things would be good. Man, if this is all there is to this, I'm gold! I don't know what I was worried about. A day or so later, there was a little pain, but it was in a location where I didn't really care. It was on the side, so I wasn't sitting on it, so it really never hurt at all. There was a tiny bit of soreness, but if that's all I was going to feel, I could do this all day long. But as you might imagine, that was not going to be the end of things...

On a side note (not what this thread is about), people have asked me, "why take steroids?" Okay, to be completely honest, no one has asked me that because I'm not a total idiot: I haven't told anyone that I'm taking them! I mean, I guess it's not that big a deal, but I'm not going to tell anyone because they don't need to know. But why am I?

I've taken just about every supplement known to man. I should probably own GNC stock. I know the regional manager of the local GNC and he carries things just for me. But my body wants to be what it wants to be. Everything I take works for a little while, then my body adjusts, and it doesn't work any more. It really is amazing. I was also once told to ease up on protein supplements, as that was hurting my kidneys. I did, and my muscles immediately started wasting away. I had lots of kidney checks and now I'm back on lots of protein because I'm not interested in wasting away muscles quite yet. Maybe in another decade I'll give in, but not yet.

Perhaps more significantly, I just think they'll work. While I really always knew it, the pandemic really helped illustrate, even more, that "health care" has nothing to do with anyone's health. Things aren't bad because the government says they're illegal, they just illegal because the government says they're illegal. People laugh, but I'm completely serious when I explain that "not FDA approved" simply means that the producers haven't paid enough money to the FDA to get the item approved. Some things, many things, are "illegal and bad" simply because some politician doesn't like them. I'm aware that they're lying to people and the majority, especially those that enforce such rules, really do not care. I think it is an incredible disservice because there are likely a lot of things out there that could really help A LOT of people, but because of "rules" they aren't allowed to be discovered or researched.

So, why? Because I want to be more fit. I want to be more prepared. And yes, because I want to look good. I'm also trying to figure out why I'm so damn fatigued all the time, and I'm hoping this might help in that direction, too. But that might be because I don't sleep very well (more to come on that later, too) and haven't for some time. Maybe I do have some issues...but that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about my experiences pinning virgin muscles. And in the next post, the first pin into the thigh will appear, I promise!

 

[Multislacking]

Welcome to the club. When you get a few hundred pins under your belt, you'll just do it and be like "meh, close enough".

At our age, sleep apnea becomes one of the biggest issues as far as tiredness, etc goes. Your wife can probably tell you if you snore or not. But this thread isn't about sleep apnea.....

 

[Astro95]

Thanks, Astro95, for the ideas and advice! As for the needles, I've got 1 inch needles. For the draw I have an 18 and injection is a 22 (I think, I'm not sitting near them at the moment). I might have to consider pecs (as you will see as the saga continues!):

So Monday comes. I am ready. No, really, I'm ready. I have watched at least 4 videos 27 times each about locating the side ass. I've spent time flexing the muscle to be sure I've got it correct. I've watched videos with skeletal drawings showing where the nerves are, where the main veins are, and where the muscles attaches. I almost drew with the marker like I saw in some videos, but figured that was just a little too much. I know where that muscle is and where it goes (and where's it's been).

I have gear. I spent a few months researching and learning. I know what I need. I know how much I need (though it did take me some time to figure out the mg/ml thing, I don't know why). I have opened syringes and needles and practiced attaching and detaching. I have the alcohol rubs. I have the gear (absolutely awesome service from Purity Labs here!). I am ready to go.

I've watched a dozen videos about TRT and how to draw liquid into a needle. I've watched at least a dozen people prepare needles and inject themselves. I've looked at and considered the auto-injectors and rejected them. I've watched other videos about how to make the injection pain-free. I am ready.

So, Monday morning, at 6am, I grab the stuff and just do it. No, really. I didn't waste any time playing around, I just grabbed it up, followed the instructions, and bam, I was done. That was it. I followed the instructions and I didn't even feel the needle. Injected everything, no worries. Let's go!

I used a massage gun to try and massage the spot, as I read that would be a good thing. No pain at all. Things are great. I go out for a run, and no worries. I thought running would help, too, to spread the stuff out so things would be good. Man, if this is all there is to this, I'm gold! I don't know what I was worried about. A day or so later, there was a little pain, but it was in a location where I didn't really care. It was on the side, so I wasn't sitting on it, so it really never hurt at all. There was a tiny bit of soreness, but if that's all I was going to feel, I could do this all day long. But as you might imagine, that was not going to be the end of things...

On a side note (not what this thread is about), people have asked me, "why take steroids?" Okay, to be completely honest, no one has asked me that because I'm not a total idiot: I haven't told anyone that I'm taking them! I mean, I guess it's not that big a deal, but I'm not going to tell anyone because they don't need to know. But why am I?

I've taken just about every supplement known to man. I should probably own GNC stock. I know the regional manager of the local GNC and he carries things just for me. But my body wants to be what it wants to be. Everything I take works for a little while, then my body adjusts, and it doesn't work any more. It really is amazing. I was also once told to ease up on protein supplements, as that was hurting my kidneys. I did, and my muscles immediately started wasting away. I had lots of kidney checks and now I'm back on lots of protein because I'm not interested in wasting away muscles quite yet. Maybe in another decade I'll give in, but not yet.

Perhaps more significantly, I just think they'll work. While I really always knew it, the pandemic really helped illustrate, even more, that "health care" has nothing to do with anyone's health. Things aren't bad because the government says they're illegal, they just illegal because the government says they're illegal. People laugh, but I'm completely serious when I explain that "not FDA approved" simply means that the producers haven't paid enough money to the FDA to get the item approved. Some things, many things, are "illegal and bad" simply because some politician doesn't like them. I'm aware that they're lying to people and the majority, especially those that enforce such rules, really do not care. I think it is an incredible disservice because there are likely a lot of things out there that could really help A LOT of people, but because of "rules" they aren't allowed to be discovered or researched.

So, why? Because I want to be more fit. I want to be more prepared. And yes, because I want to look good. I'm also trying to figure out why I'm so damn fatigued all the time, and I'm hoping this might help in that direction, too. But that might be because I don't sleep very well (more to come on that later, too) and haven't for some time. Maybe I do have some issues...but that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about my experiences pinning virgin muscles. And in the next post, the first pin into the thigh will appear, I promise!

This could very well become a log of your gear journey and more than just pinning virgin muscles.

I’d suggest looking into drawing your gear with the 22s. Many people draw with 18s I was one of them, till the seal on my rubber stoppers started becoming compromised due to the size of the needle, which opens the window to vial becoming contaminated with bacteria and something just not worth risking.

22s draw not as fast but they draw your gear in max 5 seconds depending on the mls which is pretty darn fast imo especially if it’s saves me from an infection or some money from having to toss vials with plenty of gear left.

Pinning with 25s is also pretty efficient time wise and really makes a difference regarding jabbing pain and post injection pain aka (pip) what you feel or not feel afterwards.

I use 22s to draw, 25s for glutes and 27s or 28s for pecs and other areas.

Looking forward to the next entry of this thread, hopefully what you’re going with as fas as needles works, but if not consider those adjustments.

Goodluck!

 

[Ogre]

Thanks, Multi, I’ve avoided it, but not for any good reason (the club). I recently asked my doctor about sleep apnea. He looked at me and said I didn’t have it. He said I wasn’t overweight, didn’t have a barrel chest, was talking normally, etc., so he was just convinced I didn’t have it. He said he’d send me to a sleep study if I really wanted to. I want to, but with the way insurance works these days, it will probably cost me a mint. I know I do not sleep well: I fall asleep very quickly, but I wake up often. I roll around and shift position a lot during the night. My wife does say that I stop breathing – I don’t really snore, I just stop breathing and gasp. Of course, that might lead to a CPAP, and I’m not sure I want to take that step, either!

Astro, this thread is not about a gear journey. It’s only about pinning in a virgin muscle and my experiences with it. I thought I made that clear! But it is good to hear about different needle sizes and types. I still always get them backwards, the larger number, in my mind, really should be a larger needle. It takes me some time to remember it’s not. So much time, in fact, that my very second pin was with the wrong needle! I am always open to hearing what works for other people and open to new ideas and thoughts.

But anyway, back to the topic of this thread, the virgin muscle. I make it through to Thursday. Again, no issues at all with the side-ass pin. I’m feeling good. Gym is good to me. I was also supplementing with a little oral at the start, just for the jump-start. I know many people have a lot of opinions about using an oral at the start, but hey, I’m past that now, no time for discussion. The week is good and I’m ready to try out the thigh.

This setup was for Thursday evening. No worries. Once again, I’ve watched videos dozens and dozens of times. I’m still a tiny bit confused about the angle of the needle. I’m seeing the muscle and the target zone: one-third and one-third. I’ve found that location on my thigh, and again, I think I’ve got a solid target. I’m seeing the muscle and I’m convinced I can hit it. The angle thing is a little weird as a couple of videos showed the guy stabbing basically straight down towards the ground, but into that outer third of the thigh. Other videos the guy is clear that you really need to be perpendicular to the location you’re hitting on the thigh. I imagine lots of scenarios and realize that if I go too NOT perpendicular, I’m not going down into the thigh at all. So, I’m going to compromise and try and go mostly perpendicular, but also kind of down. Yeah, I’m that much of a geek, still. I’m not saying I used a protractor to measure the angle, but I might as well have.

I’m also aware of the nerve potential here. I know about the sciatic nerve a lot from self-defense training. I watched a lot of videos. I’m staying far, far away from that side. I still just saw a lot of people just jam a needle in their leg and it was no big deal. If they can do it, why can’t I? I’m using a big, fat syringe that holds up to 3cc, so I’ve got plenty to hold on to. With a one-inch needle, I’m always wondering where that needle is going. Is it long enough? Is it too long? Am I going to hit a damn bone and scream like a little girl?

Once again, I prep everything and everything looks good. I pull the needles out, get ready, and pop it in. Once again, zero pain. This is great. I did notice the plunger went down much easier this time. That must be because of the location… oh, wait. I now notice that the needles are different colors. And the two sitting over there (I don’t have a sharps container yet, don’t shoot me!) look different. I look a little closer and realize that I reversed the needles this time: I used the smaller needle to draw and the larger one to inject. Oh well, I’m already done, nothing I can do now! It’s a tiny bit sore where I pinned, but no big deal.

It’s now evening, and I run in the morning, so no running to help work the muscle through this time. I do have the massage gun, so I run that for a couple minutes on the location to let it try and do something. I guess I’m hoping it will spread the fluid out, but I’m not really sure if that’s needed, or even what it will do. Remember, this is a virgin muscle, and I’ve never injected anything in it in my life. Still, it feels fine, didn’t even bleed. I’m good. I think shoulders are on the schedule tomorrow, so I’m ready. Regular, boring evening of an old man, and I’m off to bed.

Normal night. I fall asleep in seconds (that drives my wife nuts, but yeah, as soon as my head hit the pillow, I’m out. Now, if I could just stay asleep!). The usual waking up, rolling over, etc., when suddenly, right around midnight (this time will be significant later), “BAM!” Which one of you beasts from this board just showed up in my bed?!? It feels like one of you just stood there, took careful aim, then absolutely slammed me in the thigh as freaking hard as you could! Jesus Christ on a cracker! If I move my leg even the slightest bit, it just absolutely screams in pain!

I suffer through the rest of the night, trying not to move. Of course, that doesn’t actually work. I finally wake up for the morning and gingerly slide my leg off the side of the bed, expecting to see some kind of deformed, monstrous thing in place of my leg. There is nothing. And really, I mean absolutely nothing. My leg looks completely normal. Not even a hint of redness, swelling, absolutely nothing. Well, except the incredible pain. Damn, this really hurts.

It seemed a little odd to me where it hurt (but not how). What hurt was when I lifted my knee directly up from the ground. But only in the direct direction of, for example, sitting down or standing up. And yeah, I need, right now, to go sit on the toilet. Walking isn’t too bad. I mean, it hurts, but that muscle isn’t bad when I walk. It is a good thing that the sink by my toilet is solid, though. I could not use that muscle at all to sit down or stand up. I had to either completely use my other leg and/or supplement with my arms. Even just letting the leg straighten hurt, I didn’t have to actually flex the muscle. Reaching down to put socks on was murder.

That’s when I thought back to some of the research I had read about pip. Once of the articles I had read (and interestingly, just one) had mentioned the source of the pain from this type of injection. It claimed that the pain was actually from crystals. When you inject something like this, as we all (well, most of us) know, there is a substance (the stuff we want) that is suspended in a liquid. The reason for that is so we can inject it. Without the liquid, the “stuff” is a powder, granule, or, in its most basic form, a crystal. This article pointed out that what happens is that the liquid part of the injection is relatively quickly absorbed or processed by the cells of the body, but the crystal is not. This means the oil goes away, but the crystal remains. And at this point in the day, I can 100% confirm that it felt like there were sharp-edged crystals scratching and sliding around between the nice, soft (hey, they’re not that soft – I mean, manly!), cushioned muscle tissues. That exactly what it felt like: absolute tearing and slicing of the interior of my muscles. It was really bad.

Fortunately, as I mentioned, it was localized to a place that really only caused massive pain when standing or sitting. Hell, I changed and went out for a run. Okay, I tried to go for a run. I mean, I did. It started out with a bit of a limp, but once I got going, it was fine. The leg hurt, but it wasn’t horrible. Again, I really wasn’t using the specific muscle part where the pain was hitting the hardest.

I pushed through the day. I’m just really glad it wasn’t leg day – there’s no possible way I could have done that. It was honestly a real struggle to sit down on benches at the gym. I kept looking at my leg and really, there was nothing – no sign at all that I was in screaming pain. The only other time that it really hurt was with physical contact. I found that out when I set a dumbbell on my leg briefly. Whew, that was painful, too. I work in an office job, so once I plopped down at my desk, I was mostly fine. It hurt, but I could live with it.

I make it through the day, kick back, have a beer while watching the baseball game with my feet propped up: all good. Saturday morning comes, and it still hurts quite a bit. I limp through another run, a pretty slow run, but I’m hoping the more I get the blood flowing, the quicker the pain will go away. I was wrong. Gym is okay Saturday, but again, no way I could ever work legs. Even the slightest pressure against that location was really painful still.

Sunday comes and I’m starting to wonder about Monday. I’m supposed to pin again on Monday morning. And on the schedule (that I’ve made up in my mind) that pin will be the other thigh. At this point I’m trying to figure out how to limp on both legs at the same time. By noon on Sunday, though, the pain is really finally starting to drop. I decide I’m just going to do it. It can’t be worse than the first leg, can it? (it can)

As I’m mentally preparing for the Monday morning pin in the other thigh, I think back to that article (that I can’t find now, of course) that mentioned the oil and crystals. I wonder if the pain means it is working. I do come from the “no pain, no gain” generation. But by working, I wonder if when the pain finally disappears, does that mean all the product is gone and absorbed? That would make a lot of sense and explain why the timing is what it is. I also remember that the article mentioned that you would be better off injecting a lot more carrier: it claimed there would be a lot less pain if you injected 3cc of liquid with the same amount of product. I’m not sure I buy that, as 3cc of liquid is just a damn lot of liquid suddenly appearing inside your muscle. It might spread the crystals out, but at what cost? Anyway, I already have my bottles of 250 mg/ml, so that’s not really an option right now for me. But after a nice, leisurely, relaxing Sunday, it will be back to a new muscle pin and work on Monday!

 

[Multislacking]

PIP is part of the game. You WILL get used to it and learn what works best for you. If I have an "oops" I'll just use ibuprofen for a day or two. Oops being things like pinning with the wrong needle as you mentioned.

Like a lot of things, the more you focus on it, the more it will seem to bother you. Learn to focus elsewhere, and it won't be as bad.

 

[Multislacking]

I almost forgot to mention...on the sleep apnea... Most sleep studies are done at home now. They send a harness with you and you just wear it for a night or two at home. They have brought the cost down significantly and insurance will usually approve without any hassle. And the stopping breathing/gasping you mentioned is symptoms of apnea.

CPAP's are hell getting used to (I have a thread here about my experience). It took me a few weeks to get used to wearing one. But once you do, you'll never go back. You may still wake up at night, but the sleep you DO get is quality and will make a night and day difference. I won't even take a nap without mine.

 

[Ogre]

Okay, so where was I? Oh right, the virgin muscle pinning and finding out if you “get used to it.” After all, that was the entire point of this thread, right?

Thanks for additional tips, multi. I really can’t imagine wearing a CPAP, but as my sleep is getting worse and worse, I guess I’m just going to have to do something. I read about sleep apnea, and it said something about you’re not supposed to sleep on your back. Yeah. Here is how my night goes, every night: start sleeping on my side. Last about 15-25 minutes. Arm/hand falls asleep. Roll onto back. Last 15-20 minutes. Stop breathing and wake up. Roll over to other side. Repeat forever. I’m so damn tired all day every day. But I scheduled an appt with the doc just now, so hopefully that will help.

But back to the story! So, I’m coming into Monday morning. The left leg, the previous thigh pin, is still a bit sore. It’s not horrible, I’m not limping, but yeah, it still hurts (remember that bit about a low tolerance for pain?). Again, I’m going to man up and just do this. It’s not like I’m the first or only person to do this, so it simply can’t be that big of a deal, right?

Monday morning, time for pin. Everything out, setup, and ready. I’ve got the needles in order and I check them at least a dozen times to make sure I’m using the right one this time. I pause a second longer this time, not just jabbing away, but finally do it rather than think about it too much. Bam, we’re good. Nice, slow press, take my time. Oh, fun times! I’m not saying I got the spray on the cat this time, but man, that sucker did bleed for a bit! It ran almost all the way down my leg before I got it all stopped up. Hold pressure for a couple minutes, completely stops, all good.

No problems, no pain. Head out for a leisurely run, everything is great. I still feel the left leg, but nothing from the right (newly pinned). Head on to work, sit at desk. Doing great. Take a break for lunch. Go to the gym. Everything still just fine. After gym, have lunch, sit down and take a break. And here it comes: Great Googily Moogily!

I tried to put my leg down after lunch and just crumpled into a pile on the floor. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, that was painful! It wasn’t fire, it was that absolute tearing feeling again. Once again, it really felt like there were tiny pieces of glass inside my thigh muscle and every time anything moved, they were just cutting and slicing my muscle into tiny pieces. Oh, that hurt so bad I could hardly move.

While lying on the floor, I realized the timing was almost exactly the same as the first time. I’m not sure that was a good thing to notice, as now I’m going to always notice it. On the Thursday evening pin, I pinned at 6pm and right around midnight I woke up in pain. Here on Monday, I had pinned at 6am, and right around noon I was crippled. Yeah, once I’ve noticed that, I’m going to now expect it every time at exactly 6 hours. And since I’m expecting it, it’s even more likely to happen, dammit.

I limp back to work. The pain is just slightly lower this time, more towards the knee just a little. But man, it hurt. I had a 2-hour meeting at 1:00. I did not make it. The pain was so great, I couldn’t even sit still. It hurt like hell to move, but it was insanity trying to remain still, too. So, I got up and limped around a bit. Again, actually walking wasn’t horrible, but that motion from sitting to standing was vicious.

I made it home and someone asked me about my limp. I mumbled something about a “leg issue.” It was rough getting into bed. The slightest touch on any of the top or outer side of the thigh was like cutting into me with a sharp knife. Actually, I think a sharp knife would have been less painful because it would have just been in one place at a time instead of all throughout the outer side of my damn thigh. I had trouble getting to sleep because the pain was so intense, I was almost nauseous. At this point, I’m really thinking about my life choices.

Very little sleep that night. But up Tuesday and the pain is finally starting to lessen. I try to head out for a run, but that’s just not happening. It actually ended up being a short walk. There was really just too much pain. I’m not completely sure why I could run on the other pin, but not this one. The pain continued to abate a little throughout Tuesday. Overall, it was a really crappy day just because of the lack of sleep, I suspect. But I did make a really awesome Tuscan soup for dinner: delicious and nutritious!

To summarize, that’s just two pins in virgin muscles. I’ve learned some and I have lots of questions and decisions to make. It does appear that 6 hours is the magic number. Again, since I’ve noticed it, it will become self-fulfilling. Do I change times because of this? I don’t think so. The pin at night seemed less disruptive than the evening pin. Do I only pin thighs in the evening? I could certainly do that, but I don’t know.

I have some time to make some decisions, as the next two pins should be back in the side ass (sorry, that’s just easier than trying to type ventrogluteal and ensure I spell it right). But for you good readers who might be reading this and wondering about the topic of the post: you are correct, we’re still not there yet! While I have described two pins into virgin muscle, the entire point of this thread was to find out if “virgin muscle” truly is a thing! Does the muscle really “get used to” pins? Will there be lessened pain because the muscles grow or activate additional receptors? Unfortunately, I don’t know any of that yet.

All I know so far is that the first pins into the thighs were almost crippling in pain. I was affected in what I could do in my life for really about 4 days out of 7. Yes, the pain continued outside that time frame, but for 4 days I really was limited in one way or another due to the pain. That’s not really reasonable for me. I might have to consider other pin locations… but not yet!

You see, in order to find out the answer, and the entire purpose of this thread, I’m going to have to do it again. And that’s not enough. Once will hurt. Twice will start to give an idea of a trend, but it will take three times before I can really know if there’s a difference. So yes, I’m planning on at least two more pins in each thigh. And if any of them go “wrong,” I’ll likely go for one more. Anything less and I don’t think I’ll be able to answer the question. If it hurts more the second time and even more the third time? Then I think I have my answer and I’ll seek out some new pin locations!

So, gentle reader (all two or three of you), stay tuned! Coming soon to the same bat-channel! Well, maybe not too soon: the next scheduled thigh pin would be about May 11. After this experience, I can’t say I’m looking forward to it, but once again, I’m going to suck it up because some things need to be done. Also, for those who might be asking, “why?” I’m up about 5 pounds in the last 2 weeks and I’m starting to look damn good just in time for “sun’s out guns out” days!

 

[Multislacking]

Not to be captain obvious, but those bleeders are from nicking a vein. And even if they stop bleeding at the surface, can and will continue to bleed internally. That is why some shots lump up way more than others. And also why they continue to be painful for days afterwards. I know you're only rotating a few sites, so make sure those locations are properly healed before injecting into them again. Repeated pinning to the same damaged area can cause issues and scarring.

Great reading. I ate my lunch while reading your post.

 

[Ogre]

Ah, it’s about time for an update, isn’t it? I’m sure all you good readers are sitting on the edge of your seats, waiting to hear what happened next, right? Well, that is, all two of you who actually are reading this, eh? But hey, this isn’t a personal blog, this is details around trying to find out if there really is such a thing as “virgin muscle” and whether or not muscle “gets used to” pinning.

Of course, like any good scientific study, we can only make certain conclusions. But no, this isn’t really a scientific study, but certain, specific conclusions may be drawn here, depending on the results. As with any study, there are only some generalizations that might be made. Basically, the hypothesis would be something like, “There is a process that happens in the body that causes the muscle to eventually change or adapt to pinning to a point where the pain is reduced after repeated events.” If the experiments I am conducting show that the pain does reduce, the only conclusion that can be made is that it can happen. One cannot conclude it will happen for everyone, or even for one person, just that the process exists. Unfortunately, if the pain doesn’t reduce, no conclusion can be made at all. The process still might happen, just not for me. Also, if the pain doesn’t reduce, I still have to go through all the pain.

As I continue along here, I’m reaching the point where I’m wondering if there are three possible things going on:

1. I have bad stuff, bad carrier, or I’m allergic to something.
2. I’m just doing things wrong.
C. I’m just a wimp

Right now, I’m leanings towards option C. I don’t think option 1 is possible. If the solution wasn’t good, or if I was allergic, the ventrogluteal (VG) shots would have some kind of similar effect. They do not. As for the content, can I say who I got the stuff from here? I should probably read the rules. I have scheduled a full lab screening test in a few weeks. However, I happened to be at my doctor for something else (sleep apnea? We don’t think so, but we’re testing) and he said, “Hey, just to be sure, let’s check your testosterone.”

I was caught off-guard, so I just shrugged and said to go ahead. As it happens, I had mentioned to him last year about steroids. He had made a note to check test levels and apparently forgot why he had made the note. No matter, let’s get some quick results. There’s uh, lots of red on those results. Total test: >1500 (normal 155-721). Free test: 49.3 (3.9-14.7 normal). Testost-Bio (I don’t know what this is): 1154.6 (normal 50-190). So yeah, I’ve clearly got some legit stuff and it’s working. That was nice.

Number two seems like a good option, too. I didn’t see how I could be hitting the wrong spot, though. I mean, come on: I’m aiming at my damn thigh muscle! I’m no top-pro or anything, but I can see my damn muscles. Just in case, I went back to the internet and researched. I watched a ton more videos and pictures of thigh injections. One thing I did see was that a number were going further to the side of the leg, some almost horizontally, while I was going straight down.

Now I know from various trainings I’ve had that there’s a nerve on the outside of the thigh. Heck, that’s a clear target if you’re trying to disable someone. Looking at more pictures and diagrams, I’m not sure there’s any way I could be missing that large muscle on the thigh, whether I was going from the top or side, but I really didn’t want to get involved in the side there.

About that time, I did see another thread here asking about pinning quads. Of course, that really caught my interest. The most interesting part to me was that almost everyone seemed to be pick one of two options:

1. I will never pin quads because they are the most horrible place to pin and you will probably die if you even put a needle near your legs at any time.

Or

2. Pinning quads is the best place in the world to pin and if you don’t pin there, you’re a wuss who shouldn’t even be allowed to pick up trash by the side of the road.

There really were not a lot of in-between options. In fact, there were 16 posts that declared option one that quads were the greatest ever; and 5 posts that would never pin there if you paid them. What really caught my eye was two posts that mentioned “if you can find the right spot.” Remember that bit about watching the videos and pictures? Yeah, back to that I go.

Everything I could see seemed to agree that I was going for that big, fat muscle on the top outside of the thigh (Vastus lateralis). Once again, how could I miss it? I did read that one post that said that the perfect spot was “higher than you think.” Interesting. Almost all the guides I can find talk about the middle third of the thigh. But hey, I’m experimenting, so let’s see what happens, shall we? After all, that’s the point of this entire thread, right (it is not)?

Thursday evening comes around and I’m all set for the pin. Everything is great, setup, and ready. I find my spot, then decide to back up about an inch and go out about half an inch. I think I’m still in the middle third of the thigh, but at this point I’m at the edge of that middle third. Once again, pin goes great. I’m always amazed at how non-painful the pin itself it. I’m not a fan of needles, and I always get nervous, but the actually pinning part doesn’t hurt. It doesn’t even hurt afterwards. Weird, right?

I was thinking about the point about the last one bleeding from nicking a vein. Now that I’m older, stupid things like scratches on my hands take like a month to heal. I wonder how long those take to heal? About that time, I realized I wasn’t supposed to be pinning my thigh.

Yes, I’d been so worried about it and thinking about it so much, I just went ahead and did it. Then I looked over at the calendar and realized that if I were keeping up my rotation, this should have been a VG pin. Oh well. Guess the VG pin will be up next. But speaking of the VG pin, the previous pin was one of those. It was a Monday morning, and that one actually radiated a little pain down my leg as I went out running right after the shot. Not horribly painful, but a little odd. Other than that, the VG pins are almost forgettable they’re so not painful.

After this pin, I can say it’s pretty reliable that the PIP pain will start at right around 6 hours after the shot, the pain may increase up to about 12 hours, but then it levels off and eventually fades. This pin was in the evening, and just like last time, the pain started while I was sleeping.

The last time, I’m pretty sure that three of you guys from the board came to my house while I was sleeping. You pushed me on my side and two of you held the corners of a squared circle so that the third guy could climb to the top rope. He then very clearly slapped his elbow and dropped on me from a height, hitting directly on that thigh. This time it seems like the same three guys showed up, but somebody forgot the ring, so instead of heading back for it I think guy #2 said, “We got him good last time, let’s just give him a charley horse this time.” And then, that’s exactly what happened.

Well, it sure felt that way. Again, it was right around midnight when I woke up with that pain in the leg. It was certainly less and I was actually able to get back to sleep (or what passes for sleep for me these days). And yes, when I swung my legs out of bed in the morning, that sharp, tearing pain that felt like shattered glass inside my muscle was there. My guess is that my body is able to process out about 50% of the carrier oil in 6 hours, which is enough to leave the crystals behind to scratch and tear. Then, in another 6 hours, 50% of what remains is gone, leaving even more crystals. I think it takes about 12 hours for my body to process enough of the crystals that the pain starts to lessen.

So, Friday I had to do a lot of walking around. Again, because of the location, I was really okay to walk. I could feel the pain, but I wasn’t walking like an 80-year old with a replacement hip like I was last time. That same motion (lifting the foot directly up) caused tons of pain. Drying myself after a shower and trying to lift my feet off the ground to put on socks are the worst. What was really bad was that it wasn’t even flexing the muscle, it was just moving the muscle.

You know how when you have a pulled muscle or a strain, that you can move that part of your body and it doesn’t hurt? Like if your hammy hurts, you can use your arm to lift and move the leg and as long as you don’t flex the muscle, you’re okay? Yeah, this is NOT that. If I lifted my leg with my hands, it still felt like it was ripping and tearing. I was a little used to it after last time, but it was still pretty bad.

By Saturday I was pretty well back to normal. I could run Saturday morning. Sure, I could feel the pain, but at that point I would call it “manageable” pain. On Friday it was really more like “crippling” pain. By Sunday it was pretty much gone. Oh, I could still feel the spot in my leg, but it didn’t really hurt, per se (unless I pressed on it, that still hurt pretty good). I would certainly say the pain was different from the first time. I’m not sure I would say it was any less at all, but perhaps it went away a bit faster than the first time. Or maybe I just blacked out from the pain and lost some time there, I can’t really be sure.

Monday, I went back to the VG and there was really almost no pain at any time. I think once during the first night I rolled on that side and felt it, but that was really it. At this point, I’d really like to just pin VGs, but at twice a week that really feels like way too much. I did read someone else alternates VGs and glutes, and I might consider that (though I don’t know how I’m going to twist all the way around like that and do the aspiration step. I know that’s not critical, but I’ve been doing it and I think I’d like to continue).

At this point, no real conclusions yet. I’ll be hitting the other quad this Thursday evening and I’ll be doing a bit of standing Friday, so we’ll have to see how that goes. Heck, if this starts to work out, maybe I can work with alternating VG and quads in that way (I had been right VG, then left VG, then L – R quads; but maybe it will be easier to do right VG – L quad – L VG – R quad or something). However, I would say there was something “less” with just the second pin in the same quad.

Still to come: pin #2 in quad #2; then remember – still more weeks to go because this experiment cannot end until I pin both quads at least three times. I can’t say I’m looking forward to it, but I do feel like the results are worth it so far: I’m up about 7 pounds and the other day when I was working shoulders, I saw, very briefly, that I had veins in the front of my shoulders! I know you’re not impressed, but I was, and that’s what matters here! Hey, thanks for reading.

 

[Dogs_of_War]

I pin in the quads and love it. I just added inner calves to my rotation. About the third time the pain was considerably less. My personal experience is that when I do get an inflamed injection site that’s when I get the so called Test Flu.

 

[Deeman]

I pin in the quads and love it. I just added inner calves to my rotation. About the third time the pain was considerably less. My personal experience is that when I do get an inflamed injection site that’s when I get the so called Test Flu.

Love the quads as well. First couple a little sore. Now its just butter

 

[Ogre]

Hey, it’s time for an update! I know you’ve been waiting for one, whoever might be reading this. And if you weren’t, then why are you reading this now? I mean, it’s a free country (kind of), and no one is forcing you to read this, right? Never mind, I know it’s not a free country, but I’m still posting this update now. And what else did you really have to do, anyway? You might as well continue reading if you’ve read this far, even if you’re just procrastinating from doing something else. Unless you’re procrastinating going to the gym. If you’re supposed to be at the gym, go ahead and do that and come back here later, this post will still be here when you get back.

So, this is the next update related to the potential of virgin muscle getting used to pinning. Thanks, Dogs of War and Deeman. See what I mean? Some people absolutely love the quads. And I imagine many like them for some of the same reasons that I do: I can see what the hell I’m doing! It’s also nice that it’s a pretty large target so I don’t feel like I can mess that up very easily. But that’s not what this post is about, this post is about repeated pinnings into a muscle to see the effects over a longer term.

First, a note about the other locations. I had mentioned, way back in one of those other posts, that I was rotating with the ventrogluteal (VG) locations. I’ve found that to be a good location, easy to find, easy to pin, and nearly painless. Well, until recently. I’ve now pinned them about 6 times (I can’t remember, I need to be looking at my calendar for sure) and all but two times, in the same side, there was really no pain at any time. But those two times were a bit odd. One time, right after the pin, I felt a kind of light numbness running down my leg. I figure I must have nicked a vein and the blood just carried it away. No worries, that went away rather quickly.

The last time I did the VG, though, it really was more and different. It still didn’t really hurt all that much, but it was much more noticeable. There was a weird feeling, kind of like numbness, but mostly on the inside of the muscle of the quad (if that makes sense – if it doesn’t, no matter, this is just a random forum on the internet). And for about a day, it felt like I had a blob inside my hip. It didn’t really hurt, but I could feel something there. I wonder if I just happened to hit a wrong or different spot from my other pins. But again, that’s not really what this thread is about, it’s about repeatedly hitting the same muscle to determine if the idea of the virgin muscle “getting used to” pinning could be a real thing.

So, the most recent quad pin was in my right leg. As usual, I was braced and prepared and sat there staring at it for a moment. I don’t know why, I guess it’s just a survival instinct, but I always end up pausing. I shouldn’t, because I don’t like needles, and if I think about it too much, I might just talk myself out of it. But at the same time, it never really hurts at all. I’ve even managed to do the trick with the cough, and there’s really barely any pain at the moment of puncture.

Everything is set up, time for the Thursday evening pin. Move along, everything is fine. At the point the first vial I’m using is starting to get low. I’m going to have to research a bit on how to use the end of a vial and how much to use from the end of a vial. Put the pin in, inject, almost no blood even on the removal. And as usual, really no pain, even after the injection. I get up and expect to limp or at least feel something, but nothing at all. There’s nothing to this, is there?

Now, remember, this was the Thursday night pin. Just like clockwork, around midnight, I wake up with the sore leg. This time, however, it’s not so bad. It feels like I bumped it on a table or something. I actually pretty much ignore it and go back to sleep.

I get up the next morning and prepare for the step – the first step out of the bed on THE leg. And it’s fine. No, really. There’s a little bit of soreness at this point, but it’s more like what the last three shots felt like after 2 days! Of course, at this point, my mind is going crazy. Did I hit a different location? Did I inject more or less than last time? This is not bad at all.

I make it through the day Friday and the pain really never got any worse. It was there, it was noticeable, but that’s it. All the previous pins clearly had me at a point where I was affected: I had to adapt and do things differently because of the pain. This time it still hurt, but it really was manageable. I think I only cried and screamed like a little girl one time when I reached down to put my sock on that foot. Later in the same day, it was already lessened and I was able to take my sock off without any whimpering at all.

If this is all the pain I had in the first pin, this entire thread wouldn’t even exist. As usual, my mind is going non-stop trying to think about how this is going to be for the next pin. Could this be it? Has my body really adapted THAT much to the injections? Or will I be crippled again and walk around like an 80-year-old man for a day after the next one? I know my body massively adapts to damn near anything I can do to it, but could it change this much? Is this why people need to keep changing formulas and amounts over time? I know this stuff is working great, but will the adoptions in my muscles reach the point where the injection will start not working because I’m “used to it?” I can’t imagine my body getting used to this amount of testosterone, but who knows.

No matter, I’m going to keep going. I’ve now had four people in the last two months make some comment like, “Hey, have you been hitting the gym lately?” You’re damn right I have. At this point I’ve made it through just four total pins on the legs (really? That’s all?). I’ve still got (at least) two more to post about here, and right now I feel like it could go either way. I really hope the next one is like the last one, and it’s just a little annoying for a day. But I’m expecting it to be more like the first one when I can’t dry my feet off from the shower because I can’t lift one foot off the ground. Stay tuned!

 

[Ogre]

It’s time for another update! I know, these are happening just like clockwork… if your clock is one of those that has a low battery and has trouble getting the hands towards the 12. Have you had one of those? It works fine while the hands are dropping from 12 to 6, but the battery doesn’t have the power to push them right up the other side, so it keeps losing time, but at a weird rate? No, you haven’t had one of those? Hey, this is forum for old people who know what it’s like for everyone to have a different time instead of this crazy world where everyone’s watch has the exact same time! But, of course, that’s not what this thread is about, is it?

This post will likely be quite a bit shorter than the last few. Why? Because there’s almost nothing to report. It is amazing. I pinned left quad and moved on with life. It is absolutely insane how different just the third pin into that muscle was. I am really curious about what is happening physiologically. I mean, we can say the muscle “got used to” getting pinned, but I wonder if pain receptors have changed? Has the muscle made adaptations and more physical connections are being made between the material being injected and receptors in the muscle? Sadly, since government has decided some medicine is “bad,” we likely won’t know any time soon because no one is really allowed to do effective research on things like this.

The quad pin was good. Nothing for a day, then a little pain. Noting serious, just noticeable. I could even reach down and put my socks on. I’m not saying I’d plan on a heavy leg day the next day, but you know, I might actually be able to do that if I had to at this point. While I’m sure most who are experienced know this, I really am amazed at the difference a few weeks makes. The VG pin was a bit more, something. It wasn’t really painful, just more noticeable.

I’ll still post the final post after pin number three in the other quad, but at this point the post might end up just being: pinned. Done.

 

[Ogre]

Guess I'll go ahead and wrap up this series of posts. As I'm sure most of the more experienced have been expecting:

Pinned. It hurt a little. Done.

Seriously, I'm still amazed at how much difference a few weeks can make.

For those who are just starting out, or for those TL;DR:

Yes. The idea of virgin muscle pinning is real. If your first pin into a muscle is painful, keep it up for a few weeks. It is likely the pain will decrease a great deal!

Thanks for reading.

 

[Johnnyhartly]

Just read this whole thing. Very detailed write up. I’m sure this has/had helped many. Thank you sir.