Sterilizing after filling and capping?

[CoachCabo]

Put this in the wrong forum as there seems to be no interest in the general AAS forum.. Hope someone here has done some experimenting on this.

After much searching and reading how people "sterilize" their vials after filling, using a small needle for venting and in an oven,I wonder if the following has been done?
Has anyone autoclaved capped, filled, unvented 10cc vials?
I did a test with two 30cc vials, one with oil, the other with BA/BB mix.
The others were 10cc with only the stoppers pushed into vials, no crimp seals, both filled with oil. One had foil wrapped on vial lip, the other just exposed. All vials were placed in loosely capped mason jars and placed in autoclave at 15mins/15 psi.

The two 30cc vials showed no signs of any distortion or leakage. The flip top caps seem unaffected.
The 10cc vial without the foil just popped a bit but stayed in vial and the foil covered vial kept the stopper in place.

I'm a little hesitant to use this method on a batch of real mix and wonder if anyone uses this method?
I would prefer to run 30 minutes at 15 psi/250F. (I'm at sea level).

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

 

[Skyman]

Might get more responses if your post count was higher. I have never used an autoclaved. I do heat the carrier oil for thirty min before mixing with raw powder. I use a bio filter as I fill vials. Never had an issue with doing it this way.

 

[CoachCabo]

We'll, I certainly appreciate your response.
I guess post count equals knowledge on this site.

I suppose I shouldn't bother posting any real results since my low post count would mean my info is not credible.

Sort of funny how much action some threads get in other forums and the amount of flaming going on.
Did I join the right site for earnest sharing of knowledge?

 

[Skyman]

We'll, I certainly appreciate your response.
I guess post count equals knowledge on this site.

I suppose I shouldn't bother posting any real results since my low post count would mean my info is not credible.

Sort of funny how much action some threads get in other forums and the amount of flaming going on.
Did I join the right site for earnest sharing of knowledge?

Good info here just sometimes people will create new log on and trash a supplier so low post count can have red flags.

 

[CoachCabo]

Interesting......

Sounds like either people here are seriously jaded or you have a shitload of trolls.

I joined a forum years ago but couldn't find a log on so I joined here thinking this was the one.

Not selling anything, haven't mentioned any other business or supplier, haven't preached, trolled or flamed anyone for asking a question. Clearly laid out my experiment and asked for info if anyone else has tried this method.
As cheap and readily available autoclaves, laminar flow hoods and other equipment is, I figured someone else must be attempting the most aseptic conditions possible.
I just happen to have a decent set up because of my other endeavors. Thought I could help, share and get help when needed.

Its a shame being discounted because of being new to the forum. I really do have a lot of knowledge and experience to offer but I could be full of shit too, right?
Like half the internet.

But Skyman, I sincerely appreciate your response and interaction. The amount if views yet total lack of response had me wondering.....

 

[Skinnyguy180]

Honestly man there are a lot of reasons you aren't getting responses... the post count thing has more to do with the fact that no one knows you here and you are talking about cooking drugs..

buy a girl a drink first buddy.

 

[CoachCabo]

Guess that makes sense.
Who's "cooking drugs"?
Surely more blatant posts here. Plus where I live juice is legal or quasi-legal anyway.

Rather than buy a drink, I'll just buy a hooker. They are cheap in Mexico and way less drama.

Fucking funny as I was going to switch suppliers to a forum sponsor in the spirit of brotherhood and shit.

 

[Oldman85]

I'd suggest looking up Louis Pasteur. Moderate temps at the appropriate time exposure and heat soak might do the trick

The human body runs a 'fever' when sick because many pathogens are EXTREMELY temperature sensitive. So if 102 F is enough to kill many bugs... extrapolate accordingly.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

You dont sterilize them after filling you sterilize them before. That makes no sense never bake your gear you ruin the hormone not to mention venting allows bacteria to get inside


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[JRotten]

I don't get the whole baking after capping thing. Makes no sense and just opens the door to a ton of problems. Autoclaving in a container and working in the cleanest stillest air you can manage will do you more good. Realisitically, once the oil is filtered your procedure and environment prep should keep you sterile, it's really doubtful that if a vial gets contaminated at that point that 30 minutes in an oven is really going to do any good anyway. The BA should be working to keep any replication of bacteria at a standstill anyway. I mean as soon as you open the vial and pressurize it with air it is "contaminated" anyway.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

I don't get the whole baking after capping thing. Makes no sense and just opens the door to a ton of problems. Autoclaving in a container and working in the cleanest stillest air you can manage will do you more good. Realisitically, once the oil is filtered your procedure and environment prep should keep you sterile, it's really doubtful that if a vial gets contaminated at that point that 30 minutes in an oven is really going to do any good anyway. The BA should be working to keep any replication of bacteria at a standstill anyway. I mean as soon as you open the vial and pressurize it with air it is "contaminated" anyway.

100% agree.


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[thewaterboy]

Sterilizing happens during the .22 Mic filtration. Vials should be autoclaved before filling or purchased already sterile. You cant dry heat or steam pressure sterilize a liquid. Those processes simply sterilize surface areas. Ba is used as a bacteriostatic agent to inhibit reproduction/growth...bb is used as a preservative buffer. This information is easily had with very little research. Basic chem and(or) o chem knowledge doesn't hurt either.

 

[chocolatemalt]

Post-cap sterilization would be really sweet in theory, much simpler and easily re-done by the end consumer as well. Oven at 250 degrees, let it roast for... 6 hrs? 12 hrs? Then you've killed everything you're concerned about.

The reality is that the hormone, BA, BB, and stoppers all have breakdown temps and it seems like the knowledgeable UGL folks regard that as a legit showstopper. I haven't seen any actual specs though.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

Post-cap sterilization would be really sweet in theory, much simpler and easily re-done by the end consumer as well. Oven at 250 degrees, let it roast for... 6 hrs? 12 hrs? Then you've killed everything you're concerned about.

The reality is that the hormone, BA, BB, and stoppers all have breakdown temps and it seems like the knowledgeable UGL folks regard that as a legit showstopper. I haven't seen any actual specs though.

Never ever ever ever bake the finished product.

Ill say it again. Never ever.

If you properly sterilize the vial and stopper and the solution you have no issues. Build an easy flow hood for filling and ur good.


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[chocolatemalt]

Never ever ever ever bake the finished product.

Ill say it again. Never ever.

If you properly sterilize the vial and stopper and the solution you have no issues. Build an easy flow hood for filling and ur good.

Do you have any reasons? Or sources?

Here's an old thread on Pro Muscle saying the opposite:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...urs-infections-painful-gear-test-flu-etc.html

The study being cited there ran a bunch of tests starting at 150ºC (300ºF) but they killed ALL the bacteria in every test, so they didn't find a useful lower temp limit unfortunately. They were not testing anything but carrier oils and bacteria, so no data there on test esters, BA, BB, or stoppers.

BA & BB seem to have very high evaporation temps and no obvious concerns about degradation. Can't find anything on test esters beyond melting points and a LOT of conflicting bro-science... some believe that hitting the melting point will destroy the compound. But test-e melts starting around 90ºF so this seems very unlikely.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

For one you will degrade the stopper. Thats one. Two you will over heat the hormone and three its just not needed

Ive been doing this a long time and you never ever bake the gear. Ever.

You properly heat it in the beaker with your heat source then sterilize your vials and stoppers. Combine and then sterilize your gear thru the filter. And done. Then fill and cap. Its so simple.


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[ILIFT2LIVE]

You have to reach the melting point to break down thw hormone to keep it a solution. But you dont bake it. Its not a caserole.


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[chocolatemalt]

For one you will degrade the stopper. Thats one. Two you will over heat the hormone and three its just not needed

Ive been doing this a long time and you never ever bake the gear. Ever.

You properly heat it in the beaker with your heat source then sterilize your vials and stoppers. Combine and then sterilize your gear thru the filter. And done. Then fill and cap. Its so simple.


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You may be right, but I'd like to see the sources on breakdown temps for relevant stoppers and hormones. Coming up blank on all that.

Give that thread I linked to a read. Some guys in there have also been doing this a long time, running UGL outfits, and recommend baking the vials. No loss of potency, they claim.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

I tried it wont open for me.


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[chocolatemalt]

Yeah it needs a login.

 

[Clandestine Guy]

Been brewing for a few months. Startup was rudimentary. I had concerns of contamination and bacteria growth. The research I did indicated that all the hormones except Tren are good to go @ 250 for 30 min to sterilize. Tren is half the temp, twice the time. Butyl rubber stoppers are good to go above 350, so 250 is harmless. I had a bad batch early on. I got one complaint of a knot, so I pulled the whole batch off the shelf and shot myself. Knot and fever followed. I used pliers to remove the flip tops and I arranged the vials and stoppers on a cookie sheet and baked @ 250 for an hour. I wanted to make sure heat transfer was 100%. Recapped the baked goods and tried for personal use. No more knot. I don't know how the batch was contaminated in the first place, but I was able to salvage it this way. Because infection is a death sentence for our business, I take no chances. I practice safe procedures and keep my area clean. As just an added precaution, I heat-sterilize one last time before capping. Filled vials and stoppers go in the oven on every cook now. Customers keep coming back with rave reviews, so it must be working as intended.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[chocolatemalt]

Nice info, thx.

Is butyl rubber what all the UGLs are using? And when you baked your own batch and uncapped, you removed the stoppers as well or baked em?

Re: tren -- you confirm something I read a few times elsewhere, that it's an exceptionally fragile steroid that oxidizes and degrades just a little above the melting temp (is that correct?) and turns dark reddish brown in the process... exactly the color that so many of us see as a "gtg verified tren" color when in fact that means the brew was overcooked and lost some potency.

The Pro Muscle thread I linked above claims that IP, a gigantic international UGL based in Germany (and busted in 2010), would bake their vials routinely before sending them out and had no degradation issues. That's before my time though so I dunno how legit IP was.

 

[ILIFT2LIVE]

Still amazes me you guys are baking the gear. U do realize that venting a vial and baking it lets bacteria in it


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[thewaterboy]

Still amazes me you guys are baking the gear. U do realize that venting a vial and baking it lets bacteria in it


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I agree with not baking. Dry heat usp standards are also 190c/374f and are not guidelines for liquid, simply surface area. It also requires many hours. High pressure steam sterilization is much more efficient and less time consuming, but v also outlined for surface areas.

I disagree with melt point though. Heat is used to make solvents/co-solvents more efficient. Solubility temps of a solute while in the presence of a solvent and melt temps are completely/drastically different. I've never hit anywhere close to melt point temps to make a solution. With this, or in a lab.

I also disagree that dry heat while venting well allow bacteria to enter. For bacteria to enter it'd have to be in the presence of vacuum. Heat causes expansion which in turn causes pressure. Not to mention if you hit you hit vapor pressure temps with the solvents the thermodynamics will exert further expansion from gas pressure. Basically the inside of the vial will be in a positive pressure state.

Just my 2 pennies.

 

[Phil6502]

I disagree with melt point though. Heat is used to make solvents/co-solvents more efficient. Solubility temps of a solute while in the presence of a solvent and melt temps are completely/drastically different. I've never hit anywhere close to melt point temps to make a solution. With this, or in a lab.

I also disagree that dry heat while venting well allow bacteria to enter. For bacteria to enter it'd have to be in the presence of vacuum. Heat causes expansion which in turn causes pressure. Not to mention if you hit you hit vapor pressure temps with the solvents the thermodynamics will exert further expansion from gas pressure. Basically the inside of the vial will be in a positive pressure state.

Just my 2 pennies.

This.

The air that is in the oven is also sterile. The types of seals on a vial will let air out when the pressure rises, but will form a vacuum when the environment inside the vial begins to cool. These seals work the same way that canning jar lids work, will let pressure out, but will seal upon vacuum.

It is advisable to always keep the temperature of a solvent/solute system below the melting point of the solute. If you don't, you may end up doing a recrystallization instead of actually dissolving the solute.

Autoclaving solid materials(like grain) and culture solutions(like agar) is routine practice in every mycological and microbiology lab ever.

The most important thing is to ensure enough time to allow the center of your solution to get to the temperature you are trying to sterilize at. So, in an autoclave, it would take longer than 15-20 min. to do a full heat cycle. Likewise with using dry heat.

 

[CoachCabo]

Some of you seem pretty thick.
My query was concerning autoclaving, not baking, filled and capped vials. Autoclaving at 15psi equates to 250 +\-, not high enough to break down any component or the product within. I used to open air brew trenbolone from Finaplex like lots of people. 300+ ml and never had a problem brewing, baking, etc. I was appalled when I searched the Internet and saw so many "Labs" open air Brewing in a kitchen. Sure, the 22u filtration is great but still far from a clean way of doing things.
Because now I have an autoclave (actually two of them) I thought it might be cool to "hedge my bets" by taking the process a wee bit further. Hence the attempt at autoclaving finished vials.
Since it seemed like overkill anyway and no one is doing it, I cancelled the idea.
I now just sterilize everything like vials, lab glass, etc. in tyvek bags in my autoclave. I wipe down the inside of my laminar flow hood with alcohol and run it for an hour before working. Along with that I wipe down the tyvek bags, raw containers/bags and any tools.
Was using Büchner funnels but now because of this forum I am using bottle top filters, which is great having a few less things to clean.

This forum has a lot of flaming of people in a shitload of threads. Not sure why? Would be nice if there was a bit more civility.

In the interest of this forum's prosperity, I did just place an order from a forum sponsor even though the price was significantly more than my usual source. The customer service was great up to the point of the receipt of my money. Now, not so much. I reserve judgement until thing go one way or the other. Then I will post a review.

First time back to the forum since my OP, and am happy to see there has been some discussion here.
Best to all!

 

[Lena]

I homebrewed over 10 thousand vials of estradiol valerate and estradiol enanthate (physical properties similar to testosterone esters, lower max concentrations but also lower dosages). I use terminal heat sterilization: in a 8L autoclave at 129°С = 264°F for 30 min after I mix and seal vials. The only next step is labels. For better heat conduction I fill the autoclave with water so that the inner bowl floats a little, then I put 70-75 sealed vials upright and pour about 2 cm or 1/2" water into the inner bowl. So, water in the outer bowl quickly conducts heat to water in the inner bowl and then into vials (water conducts heat better than steam at the same temperature). Guidelines for licensed compounding pharmacies say that terminal heat sterilization is preferried method if the drug and everything else in the finished product can withstand 121°C = 250°F. At 121°C 15 min or even 8 min is enough. At 129°C 1 min is enough. Oils, BA, solvents, butyl stoppers, estradiol esters, testosterone esters and anabolics can withstand 129°C=250°F with possible (I'm not sure) exception of tren.

If you homebrew for yourself only then 30 min in any pressure cooker is enough. And even just in a pot 100°C=212°F if at about sea level (not in Denver "mile high city"). I and multiple other people sterilized in a pot at 100°C without filtering, never a problem. If you brew for somebody else then 121°C=250°F.

Dry heat sterilizers (140°C=284°F for 1 hour) may require vials (sealed but with bared center of the stopper) to be vented with a short thin needle. I think that many ovens make too uneven and imprecisely measured heat. A 8L autoclave is not that much more expensive than a dry heat sterilizer.

If you want to make sure that finished vials cannot contain something visible like a lash then you can filter after mixing, but don't consider filtering as reliable sterilization, use terminal heat sterilization anyway (then any sterilization or aseptic methods before that are pointless).

If you wash something with water then immediately after washing, heat in an oven: for bacteria to not have time to multiply and create pyrogens.

I think that homebrewers of testosterone and anabolics developed a taboo "never heat after mixing" because somebody was afraid that heat would "deactivate" their substances. Testosterone esters definitely don't "lose potency" when heated to 129°C=250°F.

 

[REHH]

This is an old thread from 5yrs ago.

No one I know does sterilization after filling and capping, all that is done prior. The product is heated above 300F in the brewing process then filtered using a .22um PTFE hydrophobic filter. Vial Filling is done in a filtered environment using a HEPA Laminar Flow Hood.

 

[Lena]

No one I know does sterilization after filling and capping

The taboo is strong. But wrong.

 

[CoachCabo]

Lena, I will not castigate your post and I will even commend and applaud your comment that “…if you are brewing for yourself 100c is fine. If you are brewing for others, the 121c…”

I don’t agree at all with your take on filtering. “A lash”?!?!
Filtering to 0.22microns is the USP standard for sterility of liquids and along with inability for all but very few pathogens to cross such a small filter, the amount of crap you filter out is substantial. If one is brewing and then filtering into depyrogenated media bottle under laminar flow, and then final packaging into also depyrogenated vials with sterile stoppers, there is absolutely no reason to again run finished products through an autoclave.

When I first came to this forum I posed the same question about sterilizing capped, finished vials and my query was not well recieved. Being an over-engineer and over-does it kind of guy, I ran a test with many finished vials of different compounds through my autoclave. It worked just fine.

Filtering is a must! I think if the homebrewer doesn’t have a laminar flow workspace, running the vials through an autoclave is a great idea. But still risky as many bacterial spores can withstand temperatures well in excess of autoclave ranges. Yes, you mentioned washing and then sterilizing immediately will mitigate some of this. Very true. In fact, rather than autoclave my media bottles, I wash/rinse and then bake mine in a lab oven for 2-4 hours at 250c.

I also agree that autoclaving gear doesn’t “deactivate” anything.