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Rapid Muscle Loss During PCT

Beerus

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Hi

This is my first post so apologies if it is in the incorrect section or there is some required information that I leave out.

Basically my problem is that after I completed a 12 week cycle of test e and tren e, I have been losing muscle rapidly, my energy and motivation are low, and I find myself constantly tired. I suspect that it may be low natural testosterone at this point. My diet, PCT, training, water intake, sleep are all good. More details on all of these follow.

Firstly my Stats
1.82m, just turned 25. I have been training consistently for around 7 years now.
Before Cycle: 90kg, roughly 14% bf
During Cycle: 88kg, roughly 8% bf
Currently, 7 weeks post cycle, 88kg, roughly 14% bf
These may not seem like big differences but visibly the difference in size is significant. Clothes that I bought when I was 20 (around similar bf% and before any cycles) to fit comfortably now hang loose on me. It isn't just in my head as those around me and colleagues have made comments about this as well.

My Cycle
Weeks 1 - 12: Test E 500mg
Weeks 3 - 12: Tren E 300mg
Weeks 1 - 12: Proviron 25mg eod
I started the cycle not taking any arimidex but after some sensitivity in my nipples and slight puffiness after the first couple weeks I started with arimidex 0.5mg eod, later going to 1mg eod to fully reduce the puffiness.

PCT (counting weeks immediately after cycle ends)
Week 1 - 2: Proviron 50mg ed
Week 3: Proviron 25mg ed
Week 4: Clomid 100mg ed
Week 5 - 8 (+ 2 days): Nolvadex 20mg ed
Week 5 onwards: 500 iu HCG eod for a total of 5000 iu
I currently have a week of PCT left.
I originally stopped the arimidex as I started the clomid but after the sensitivity returned after a few days I continued on 1mg eod.

The cycle itself was great, I was losing fat and putting on muscle with veins popping out in every direction. I had no side effects during the cycle.

Previous Cycles
Previous cycles have all been test e only or test e and deca. All 12 weeks and on average I take off around 6 months after PCT before the next cycle. This is my first cycle with Tren. My first cycle was a bit young, I was 21, but it was a very, very small dose and so was the next one. I took almost a year off after each of those cycles.

Back to my problem, I am not sure when it started exactly, either just before the end of my cycle or just after but as soon as 3 weeks after the end of my cycle I was getting comments about how I look much smaller. Since then it has only gotten worse with my clothes getting even looser and my mood, motivation and tiredness getting worse. My weight has stayed quite constant throughout but fat % has also been going up. As I said, the numbers don't look to bad but visibly it is quite shocking. My eyes have also been a bit dry recently and my contact lenses feel uncomfortable, although I am not sure if this is related.

My diet is quite clean and I get around 3300 calories with enough in each food group. I also make sure to take multivitamins, fish oils etc. During the cycle I was on around 2300 calories. Before my cycle I estimate my maintenance at around 3000 calories. In terms of water I get an average of 5 litres a day.

My training is also not a problem, although I loose some motivation after the first few lifts, I still try to push as much as I can and move decent weight. I train 5 times a week. My strength has only gone down slightly since the end of the cycle but is consistent with what it was before the cycle. I also get at least 7 hours of sleep every day and I have a desk job which is not overly stressful. There is also no other factors in my life which would be causing me stress at this point in time.

I am sure that the gear and PCT are not poor quality as I get pharmaceutical grade where I can, I can feel them working and my brother also takes the same stuff and has none of these problems.

I have had a similar problem before, after a previous cycle I did loose muscle mass rapidly and I can't remember how long it took to recover then. After other cycles the effects were not bad but I didn't actually keep my gains. My diet and training and always been quite good.

I believe my symptoms are consistent with low natural test. I have just started on some USN Testo Tribulus and have stinging nettle root tea now in the hopes they will help with my natural test. I have not have any bloods done as I am not sure which blood tests should be done exactly. I will see my GP after I finish my PCT if nothing has improved. I am obviously keen to avoid any suggestion of TRT at this age so I would like to try everything possible before that. The only PCT that I will be able to get my hands on quite quickly now is HCG. As mentioned above, I did use it during my PCT but I also have seen things get a bit worse as well during that time. I am able to get private blood tests done quite quickly but it is a bit costly so I also want to avoid the number of tests that I do

So my questions are:
What is causing this exactly?
What should I have done differently with the cycle to prevent this?
Is this normal, I have searched forums for days and couldn't find anyone with a similar issue.
What can I do now to cure this?
Will things just sort itself out after time and how long should I expect this to take?
What blood tests should I do, and what is the next step once I get the results?

In addition, I appreciate any other comments or suggestions about anything else that I have said here.
At this point I think I am done with the gear, my body clearly doesn't react very well to it. Even during the cycles my gains are not so significant that it is worth risking this, however I am still interested in what should have been done differently. My main concern now is just sorting this issue out.

Apologies for the long post, and thanks in advance for the help.
 

Tall Deck

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I'm just going to make mention of the things that jump out at me that I see you doing all wrong with your PCT:

#1. You're using HCG all wrong. HCG should NOT be used after the Clomid is finished. That's backwards. HCG should be used FIRST in the beginning week of the PCT and BEFORE the Clomid begins.

#2. The problem with relying on Arimidex to prevent gyno is that it might not prevent an Estrogen rebound effect once it's halted. I strongly suggest you use Aromasin instead since Aromasin does not allow the rebound effect after it's discontinued.

#3. You should NOT wait until over a month into your PCT to start the Nolvadex. Nolvadex should be used for the entire PCT period, (and BTW I like to use it all through the steroid cycle as well). I also recommend that Nolva be used for as many weeks after the gear cycle as the gear cycle duration itself lasted. So if you were on the gear for 12 weeks, then use Nolva for 12 weeks after the cycle is ended. Otherwise you can get post cycle gyno.

#4. I don't think that using Proviron during the PCT is a good idea since Proviron is technically an anabolic steroid. So you really don't need any exogenous androgen to be present in your blood stream when you're trying to get your own natural testosterone levels to bounce back. Not even a weak androgen like Proviron. Where in the world did you learn how to use the PCT like you have been doing? No offense, but your methods are all wrong. So whoever has advised you to do it the way that you have been doesn't know what he's talking about
 

chocolatemalt

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It's hard to know what's going on since you don't have bloodwork. Basic labs off-cycle is $57 through privatemdlabs, a better one with mass-spec T is $72 at labsmd. You'd want to add in a mass-spec E2 assay as well since you've been using tren (or if within 6-8 wks of tren-e). All this is detailed in a sticky in Lab Testing.

Likewise, read the First Cycle sticky which will detail PCT etc.

Your gear could be good, underdosed, or bunk... on a case-by-case basis. Same with ancillaries. Gotta have bloodwork. Otherwise you risk losing all your gains (as you've experienced) which means the cash spent on gear and food, not to mention all your time and efforts, go down the drain. Hard to see the labs as pricey when viewed that way. Also... injuring yourself (e.g. liver) is also a potential massive expenditure that labs might help avoid. Just some perspectives. To me, skipping bloodwork is like skipping oil changes on your Ferrari.
 

Staynattybruh

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Wow wtf kind of pct protocal is that.... That's all sorts of fucked up.
 

Beerus

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Firstly, thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate it. I followed the PCT protocol from
https://www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/articles/information/9-post-cycle-therapy
The additional Proviron was at the advice of a bodybuilder.

I do understand now there were things that should have been done differently, for example using HCG during the cycle/ at the beginning of PCT as opposed to during. I did blindly follow the advice of others which was entirely my fault. My problem is what to do now.

Unfortunately I could only get my hands on Arimidex, Aromasin simply wasn't available.

I am not based in America, I checked with the lab again now and they told me that I need a doctor to book the tests. I will see the GP next week as soon as the PCT is done, I did find in the past that some GP's are not entirely clued up on issues like this so I wanted to know what blood tests I should get him to request and also what suggestions to bring to the table.

I am currently out of all types of PCT so I will need to order stuff which may take a while.
 

Beerus

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Hi, first thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.
The PCT protocol that I followed was taken from https://www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/articles/information/9-post-cycle-therapy
The additional Proviron was at the recommendation of a bodybuilder.

Yes I realise many mistakes were made, I blindly followed the advice of others which is entirely my fault. Researching afterwards and from the advice here I realise that there was no need for the Proviron, HCG should have been taken during the cycle/ at the start of PCT and the nolva and clomid usage here was not consistent with what is recommended. Also I did not do any bloods which is also stupid in hindsight. My problem though is now that I have put myself in this situation, what should be done now.

My body's reaction still seems a bit severe to me, from my searches and there's others that I know that don't even do PCT who don't have effects like these. As mentioned earlier it is actually the same methods used by this other bodybuilder who seems to keep almost all his gains.
Just to reply to the above, unfortunately I couldn't get my hands on Aromasin, just Arimidex. Also I am not based in America for those labs. I had a chat to the lab workers here now and apparently I do in fact need a doctor to request them. I will see the GP next week after I finish with the Nolva. I did find in the past that some GP's are actually quite clueless on issues like these so I wanted to know what blood tests to ask him to request and also what recommendations to bring to the table.
 

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Test, estrogen, FSH, LH, lipids, thyroid, metabolic profile
 

Beerus

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Thanks, it is quite expensive (The quote for the following works out to around $125) so I just want to make sure the following are correct. As written on the testing form I showed the reply above to the consultant and she chose the following tests Lipogram, Testosterone | FTI, E2, FSH, LSH, TSH| FT4. With the commas separating different tests. I will only be able to do the tests next week. It is quite expensive so are there perhaps vital tests and then I can return for the others later if needed.

I will only be able to do the tests next week, should I post the results here first or take it to the GP. Also what are the next steps if I take it to the doctor first, should I look to be running another form of PCT, perhaps another course of Nolva, Clomid or HCG. In the mean time until tests come back also what should I be doing and should I order anything?
 

Tall Deck

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At the point you're at now, I'd get some Clomid and Nolvadex as soon as possible. If you anticipate it taking awhile, then make sure that you have something in your system to compete with estrogen in order to prevent post cycle gyno. If you don't have any AI nor anti-E's to accomplish that right now, then get some Proviron, Masteron, or Test in your system until you get more Nolvadex and clomid. But once the Clomid and nolvadex has landed, START up the Nolvadex right away, and STOP taking everything else 2 or 3 days before you begin the Clomid. And from here on do NOT pay any attention to your former sources of info in PCT
 

Tmart

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Your pct might be the worst I've ever seen, probably didn't help you recover at all. The guys above outlined it pretty well, I'd run a correct Pct and then bloods 4 weeks after to see if it helped
 

Beerus

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Thanks, I will be able to get my hands on a container of Clomid and Nolva this weekend, the Clomid has 15 capsules of 50mg (and I have 1 extra) and the Nolva has 30 capsules of 20mg (and I have the 5 capsules left that was planned for the next few days). Should I be starting a whole new PCT with Nolva and Clomid, what dosages should I be looking at? Do I need to take any arimidex? Can I just run that and then get bloodwork after?
 

Beerus

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Also would I need any HCG at this point
 

Tmart

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Honestly if I were you I'd do this. Run hcg at about 1000iu eod for 10 days so you'd need 5000iu. Also during that time take a low dose of adex because it will elevate your e2, around .25mg eod. Then 3 days after your last hcg shot run the standard pct of nolva at 40mg ed for the first 2 weeks and clomid at 100mg ed also. Then next two weeks cut those doses in half. I'd run that adex dose through about the first week or week and a half of your nolva/clomid then drop it. After that I'd wait 4 weeks and get bloods done to see where I was at and how it worked.


This is just what i would do in your situation. Other guys might have a different idea and they can chime in here. But at your point with the provi and poor hcg useage I would assume I was still shut down and just start from scratch. You need someone like chocolatemalt to chime in here and give his opinion, he'll probably tell you to get bloods before anything but it sounds like you're still shutdown and your poor pct plan makes that understandable. So I would wait for bloods til after a proper pct. just my opinion
 

Tmart

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Ok so I just read the rest of your paragraph haha. So you didn't take anytime to wait for your long esters to clear, correct? You pretty much did this all wrong bro. When running tren I first would have ran test alone 2 weeks longer to give the tren time to clear and then you needed to wait 2 more weeks before pct so the test could clear also. You weren't taking any prami or caber either? If your e2 got out of control your prolactin was more then likely high also causing more problems. You really need to learn what you're doing before attempting this again, I'm not trying to bash you or anything but you could have avoided all this with a little more research. We have everything you need to know right here on this site
 

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If you are losing muscle as fast as you are and your body fat has already gone up from 8-14% in just 7 weeks I think your training and diet has gone to shit. You said on cycle your caloric intake was 2300 and now it's 3300?
 

Beerus

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Ok so I just read the rest of your paragraph haha. So you didn't take anytime to wait for your long esters to clear, correct? You pretty much did this all wrong bro. When running tren I first would have ran test alone 2 weeks longer to give the tren time to clear and then you needed to wait 2 more weeks before pct so the test could clear also. You weren't taking any prami or caber either? If your e2 got out of control your prolactin was more then likely high also causing more problems. You really need to learn what you're doing before attempting this again, I'm not trying to bash you or anything but you could have avoided all this with a little more research. We have everything you need to know right here on this site

Thanks, I get that you aren't try to bash me, and I appreciate the level of respect shown from all posters here, actually makes me feel worse about not getting full advice from here before starting haha.

The 3 weeks before the clomid was for the long esters to clear but the addition of proviron messed with the point of this, this wasn't my idea and tbh I didn't really understand it but I trusted the suggestion of someone else. I know everything else wasn't good but if the Proviron wasn't there, would I be in a much better position? I didn't take anything to control prolactin, yes, but that's because I read if e2 was kept under control I wouldn't need to. Again, not necessarily how I feel now.

I will get bloods on Monday, the labs are closed for the rest of the week. What exactly would it show us that could make us change the prescribed pct protocol? Not trying to cheap out, I will get it done on Monday, just curious because it is quite a significant cost here. I do believe I'm still shut down, I still feel unmotivated and at times quite depressed, to the point its noticeable in my face and others around me often ask "what's wrong". Is there anything I can take to help with the mood? I forgot to add earlier but my testes have also not returned to full size, I think they are in the normal range though.

Just a question about your PCT, it seems a little different to the one in the Sticky (http://www.anabolicsteroidforums.com/showthread.php/7813-Post-Cycle-Therapy), could I clarify why the difference?

I don't think my training or diet is a problem, my diet is quite clean and the same as before the cycle. My training is also not the best at the moment because of my mood but certainly isn't very bad. I did also go through a period of intense stress when I had a major, major exam around 3 weeks after the cycle, this could have also played a small part in the poorer shape. I am eyeballing the fat %'s so could be mistaken, but at this point I'm not concerned with the fat gain but rather the muscle loss.
 

Tall Deck

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Tmart said it best. The only thing I would do different from what he mentioned is use Aromasin instead if the Arimidex for the reason I mentioned previously in this thread
 

Beerus

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Ok so I just read the rest of your paragraph haha. So you didn't take anytime to wait for your long esters to clear, correct? You pretty much did this all wrong bro. When running tren I first would have ran test alone 2 weeks longer to give the tren time to clear and then you needed to wait 2 more weeks before pct so the test could clear also. You weren't taking any prami or caber either? If your e2 got out of control your prolactin was more then likely high also causing more problems. You really need to learn what you're doing before attempting this again, I'm not trying to bash you or anything but you could have avoided all this with a little more research. We have everything you need to know right here on this site

Thanks, I get that you aren't try to bash me, and I appreciate the level of respect shown from all posters here, actually makes me feel worse about not getting full advice from here before starting haha.

The 3 weeks before the clomid was for the long esters to clear but the addition of proviron messed with the point of this, this wasn't my idea and tbh I didn't really understand it but I trusted the suggestion of someone else. I know everything else wasn't good but if the Proviron wasn't there, would I be in a much better position? I didn't take anything to control prolactin, yes, but that's because I read if e2 was kept under control I wouldn't need to. Again, not necessarily how I feel now.

I will get bloods on Monday, the labs are closed for the rest of the week. What exactly would it show us that could make us change the prescribed pct protocol? Not trying to cheap out, I will get it done on Monday, just curious because it is quite a significant cost here. I do believe I'm still shut down, I still feel unmotivated and at times quite depressed, to the point its noticeable in my face and others around me often ask "what's wrong". Is there anything I can take to help with the mood? I forgot to add earlier but my testes have also not returned to full size, I think they are in the normal range though.

Just a question about your PCT, it seems a little different to the one in the Sticky (http://www.anabolicsteroidforums.com/showthread.php/7813-Post-Cycle-Therapy), could I clarify why the difference?

I don't think my training or diet is a problem, my diet is quite clean and the same as before the cycle. My training is also not the best at the moment because of my mood but certainly isn't very bad. I did also go through a period of intense stress when I had a major, major exam around 3 weeks after the cycle, this could have also played a small part in the poorer shape. I am eyeballing the fat %'s so could be mistaken, but at this point I'm not concerned with the fat gain but rather the muscle loss.
 

chocolatemalt

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Silly me for assuming you were in Murica, lol.

Your bloodwork list looks good except missing the basic (and should be very cheap) comprehensive metabolic profile and complete blood count (CMP & CBC here in the States) which have many dozens of markers that docs use to establish baselines and scan for a sanity check of your health. No reason to ever skip those if getting bloodwork for any other reason, just too cheap and useful. Usually labs will have panels which include things like T, E2, LH, FSH, etc... and the CBC & CMP will be thrown in. No such options from your doc? They may just not know but the labs would.

Getting thyroid and lipids is important now but if those check out fine, they can be left off future labs unless you're really piling on the gear and/or experiencing other health changes. The docs will be on top of that though.

Bummer you have to go through a doc for all the labs. I'd hunt around for someone sympathetic to bodybuilders and gear. They're out there. Maybe local pro orgs or famous gyms will have some pointers for you.

$125 may sound pricey but I don't see a way around it... even if you wait just 4 or 8 wks you're still guessing about the right thing to do in the meantime. More wasted time/gear/effort quite possibly. :/ Yeah I know, broken record here... but bloodwork is key.

Previous advice by others re: HCG, clomid, nolva, scheduling all that -- most likely will work but we're making assumptions about your current blood levels. Labs. Need those. :D

Re: proviron & AI (arimidex is good, aromasin has some advantages if you can get that in future) -- they might actually be useful to you *all* the time. Just adjust dosing depending on current gear levels. If your natty T is indeed low, making you womanly gyno-prone muscle-melting etc, a regular regimen of low or moderate dose AI will boost your HPTA and *might* even solve the T level issue if you're lucky (making normal TRT unnecessary). Bloods needed obviously, before and after the AI therapy experiment. On cycle, higher doses are needed to hold back aromatization of all the extra T. During PCT it's still useful for doing the same trick and helping the HPTA avoid the estrogen signal that delays recovery. Most people try to get to "natty" with no drugs at all but if your low T is making life shitty, it's worth seeing if these ancillaries will help.

Don't bother with tribulus and other natural "boosters" -- they're either bunk or too ineffective to matter. The only one I'd try is lots of mushrooms since they're proven to be a mild AI and will at least improve the diet if nothing else.

Proviron will boost free T% all the time it's being used, useful on cycle and off if bloods show your levels are low or middling. Interference with PCT is pretty minor, some evidence of suppression out there, but on low doses it shouldn't matter and if you're gonna use it while "natty" anyway then it's basically part of your routine chemistry so just make your HPTA deal with it.

Good luck.
 

Beerus

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Thanks, so I will do the blood tests tomorrow and post my results, sometimes my replies get delayed pending moderation so they take a while. I remember seeing the CBC but not the CMP test, I will ask the consultant to check again.
So at the moment I am looking at following Tmarts suggestion
HCG: 1000 iu eod for 10 days giving a total of 5000 iu
wait 3 days and then Nolva and Clomid
Nolva: 40mg ed for the first 2 weeks
Clomid: 100 mg ed for the first 2 weeks
Then the following 2 weeks, half both these doses
Arimidex: I can only get 1mg tablets and they are quite small, can I do 0.5mg eod
I will continue this until a week and a half into the Nolva
Does that sound right? It does seem like quite high compared to the dosages recommended on the sticky for PCT. Obviously I'll post the bloods first. I will like to start this as soon as possible so I will appreciate those who can reply soon after the bloods.
Also was the main problem with my old PCT the incorrect HCG usage?
 

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Main issue was HCG and clomid timing, but also the AI and flying blind without bloodwork.

On a mild cycle (though any tren use has trouble with a "mild" label) like this, your blood levels will decay down into normal ranges within two weeks. I'd be starting PCT then, not at week #3.

HCG is best used throughout cycle and up to PCT, even overlapping for a week or so while the clomid is barely getting started. This prevents testicular atrophy and makes recovery easier, permanent hypogonadism less likely. A blast can work too but it's a pre-PCT thing (and slight overlap) so that the testes are up and running. Then it needs to be dropped so that the LH signal can take over. Running it throughout PCT will prevent recovery.

Clomid is the main PCT med. A good schedule would be 100/50/25/25 or even 100/100/50/50/25/25 if going for six weeks (necessary for some). The problem is that the sides can be crippling. If you get horrible depression and lethargy, cut dose down to 25 and try to stick that out. Might even skip a couple days so that the higher dose decays away in your system faster, but if you let it plummet to zero you'll lose the most important part of the HPTA restart. Nolva doesn't SERM it up as well in the hypothalamus and pituitary as clomid does.

Nolva is optional but is synergistic with clomid on SERM duties, should accelerate recovery. It also does a better job at gyno prevention so it's a backstop against any E2 spikes during PCT. A 40/20/20/20 schedule seems reasonable.

Speaking of E2, an AI should be used up to PCT and then tapered down throughout. You still have high T levels and any resulting high E2 is gonna sandbag your recovery -- the E2 is the main negative feedback signal on the HPTA. The clomid *might* block it all but maybe not... may as well help it out by keeping E2 at low levels. Not crashed, but something in the 10-30 range would be ideal since it will minimize that negative feedback possibility. Exact AI dosing depends on you, your aromatization rates at given T levels. Only bloods will have the answers but I'd take your cycle AI dose up to PCT then cut it in half for a few weeks then a quarter for the next few. There's just no point in letting E2 rise. HCG will trigger it even more, so be prepared to bump AI a bit in response.

Google for PCT regimens from Dr. Michael Scally, endocrinologist, for ideas about how this all should work. He has a ton of experience rescuing the HPTA of AAS users who've failed at previous attempts.
 

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Beerus

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Main issue was HCG and clomid timing, but also the AI and flying blind without bloodwork.

On a mild cycle (though any tren use has trouble with a "mild" label) like this, your blood levels will decay down into normal ranges within two weeks. I'd be starting PCT then, not at week #3.

HCG is best used throughout cycle and up to PCT, even overlapping for a week or so while the clomid is barely getting started. This prevents testicular atrophy and makes recovery easier, permanent hypogonadism less likely. A blast can work too but it's a pre-PCT thing (and slight overlap) so that the testes are up and running. Then it needs to be dropped so that the LH signal can take over. Running it throughout PCT will prevent recovery.

Clomid is the main PCT med. A good schedule would be 100/50/25/25 or even 100/100/50/50/25/25 if going for six weeks (necessary for some). The problem is that the sides can be crippling. If you get horrible depression and lethargy, cut dose down to 25 and try to stick that out. Might even skip a couple days so that the higher dose decays away in your system faster, but if you let it plummet to zero you'll lose the most important part of the HPTA restart. Nolva doesn't SERM it up as well in the hypothalamus and pituitary as clomid does.

Nolva is optional but is synergistic with clomid on SERM duties, should accelerate recovery. It also does a better job at gyno prevention so it's a backstop against any E2 spikes during PCT. A 40/20/20/20 schedule seems reasonable.

Speaking of E2, an AI should be used up to PCT and then tapered down throughout. You still have high T levels and any resulting high E2 is gonna sandbag your recovery -- the E2 is the main negative feedback signal on the HPTA. The clomid *might* block it all but maybe not... may as well help it out by keeping E2 at low levels. Not crashed, but something in the 10-30 range would be ideal since it will minimize that negative feedback possibility. Exact AI dosing depends on you, your aromatization rates at given T levels. Only bloods will have the answers but I'd take your cycle AI dose up to PCT then cut it in half for a few weeks then a quarter for the next few. There's just no point in letting E2 rise. HCG will trigger it even more, so be prepared to bump AI a bit in response.

Google for PCT regimens from Dr. Michael Scally, endocrinologist, for ideas about how this all should work. He has a ton of experience rescuing the HPTA of AAS users who've failed at previous attempts.

Thanks for all the help again. Looks like I can only get the blood results by tomorrow, in the mean time, pardon my ignorance, but may I just ask what was wrong with my AI usage?
Also will the suggested protocol now for me likely just involve Nolva, Clomid, HCG and Arimidex (it will be really difficult for me to find Aromasin but I will try if it's 100% necessary over Arimidex), I am just asking so that I can try get possible orders in place, will 5000 iu HCG be enough?
 

chocolatemalt

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Thanks for all the help again. Looks like I can only get the blood results by tomorrow, in the mean time, pardon my ignorance, but may I just ask what was wrong with my AI usage?
Also will the suggested protocol now for me likely just involve Nolva, Clomid, HCG and Arimidex (it will be really difficult for me to find Aromasin but I will try if it's 100% necessary over Arimidex), I am just asking so that I can try get possible orders in place, will 5000 iu HCG be enough?

Your AI usage seemed ok under the circumstances except that you never had bloods, of course. Using gyno symptoms as your only guideline is perilous.

Thing is, no one can tell you what your AI dose should be when natty, light cycle, heavy cycle, using HCG, etc. All those cases will be different and depends on your aromatase activity, your current BF%, etc. Too many variables and unknowns, gotta have bloods.

5,000 IU HCG may be enough for your 10-day blast but the stuff is cheap enough to buy extra, IMO. Unless you're determined this is the end of AAS and TRT for you.

If you still have proviron it shouldn't be an issue to add that too... it'll improve mood and hormone profile through the whole process.

The big disconnect you had in your PCT and cycling philosophy (using tren no less) with the rest of us here is the lack of bloodwork and good research. Not that you didn't do any reading but something led you astray -- the PCT schedule truly made no sense. And this is a bloodwork-heavy forum so you're gonna get a beating on that issue alone. :) The stickies in Lab Testing and Anabolics are a goldmine of info when you have the time (hours and days!) to slog through it. Well worth the effort. In any case I wouldn't touch AAS and especially tren again until you've got the bloodwork and PCT aspects well in hand and can manage the dangers, but swearing it off forever might also be premature. Chalk it up to a learning experience, eh?
 

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Thanks again for all the help.
I just got my bloods done, the doctor said everything was in normal range and that everything should return in a couple months without doing anything but obviously he was against any steroid use and also the use of any more substances to redo PCT. He says he doesn't expect any permanent damage but it could take 6 months to a year for everything to return to normal.

The results are as follows (Reference ranges in brackets):
SHBG 44.8 nmol/L (18.3 - 54.1)
FREE TESTOSTERONE 289 pmol/L (180 - 739)
S-FOLLITROPIN (FSH) 4.7 U/L (1.5 - 12.4)
S-LUTROPIN (LH) 11.9 U/L (H 1.7 - 8.6)

LIPID PROFILE
S-CHOLESTEROL 2.9 mmol/L (<5.0)
S-LDL CHOLESTEROL 1.8 mmol/L (<3.0)
S-HDL CHOLESTEROL 1.0 mmol/L (>1)
S-NON HDL CHOLESTEROL 1.9 mmol/L (<3.8)
S-CHOL./HDL RATIO 2.9 (<4.1)
S-TRIGLYCERIDE 0.3 mmol/L (<1.7)

GLUCOSE METABOLISM
P-GLUCOSE fasting 4.9 mmol / L (3.3 - 6.0)

THYROID
THYROTROPIN (TSH) -S 2.27 uIU/mL (0.27 - 4.20)
S-FT4 (Roche) 17.4 pmol/L (10.16 - 22.0)

P-GLUCOSE fasting 4.90 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.0)
S-INSULIN (FASTING) 10.6 uU/mL (2.6 - 24.9)

HOMA INDEX 2.30 (H 0.08 - 2.0)
QUICKI INDEX 0.337 (L >0.375)
GLUCOSE/INSULIN RATIO 0.462 (>0.25)
TESTOSTERONE (TOTAL) 16.8 nmol/L (8.0 - 30.0)

FULL BLOOD COUNT
ESR (WESTERGREN) 2 mm/hr (1 - 20)
RBC 6.33 x10^12/L (H 4.2 - 6.0)
HAEMOGLOBIN 17.2 g/dL (13.0 - 18.0)
HAEMATOCRIT 0.52 L/L (0.40 - 0.54)
MCV 82.0 fL (80 - 100)
MCH 27.2 pg (27 - 32)
MCHC 33.1 g/dL (31 - 37)
RDW 15.5 (H 10.0 -14.0)

LEUCOCYTE COUNT 4.76 x 10^9/L (4.0 - 12.0)
NEUTROPHILS 31.5% L 1.50 x 10^9/L (2.0 - 7.5)
LYMPHOCYTES 55.3% 2.63 x 10^9/L (1.0 - 4.0)
MONOCYTES 12.0% 0.57 x 10^9/L (0.2 - 1.0)
EOSINOPHILS 0.8% 0.04 x 10^9/L (0.0 - 0.5)
BASOPHILS 0.4% 0.02 x 10^9/L (0.0 - 0.3)
PLATELETS 154 x 10^9/L (150 - 450)

What would be recommended at this point?
 

Beerus

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My current symptoms are still mild depression, lack of drive, muscle loss, testes haven't returned to normal size, slight nipple sensitivity, tiredness.
 

Montego

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Your training is the problem I would almost guarantee. You stated - My training is also not a problem, although I loose some motivation after the first few lifts, I still try to push as much as I can and move decent weight. I train 5 times a week. My strength has only gone down slightly since the end of the cycle but is consistent with what it was before the cycle.

Strength dropping and "trying" is a big sign.

Training in Pct should be just as if not more intense then on cycle.
 

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You've got no E2 assay that I can see. The rest is good but you need to either get the doc on board to take matters into your own hands somehow.

I wouldn't bother with PCT with those numbers. LH is high and trying to drive testes to produce, which they're doing at a middling level. That may improve over time especially since the LH number is probably not a normal homeostasis -- your system is expecting higher output. If nipples are reflecting high E2 then that should be treated but you really need a blood test to know.

To treat low-ish free T% and possible high E2, you could take low doses of proviron and your AI. Maybe 25mg/day and 0.25 mg/E3D. You may then be able to drop them after full recovery in 3-6 mos or however long it takes.

You need more bloodwork in a month or so to see how things are changing and the effects of the meds. And E2 has to be on there. Your doc may pooh pooh the test but the clueful endocrinologists and TRT docs *always* get it so that should tell you something.
 

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You've got no E2 assay that I can see. The rest is good but you need to either get the doc on board to take matters into your own hands somehow.

I wouldn't bother with PCT with those numbers. LH is high and trying to drive testes to produce, which they're doing at a middling level. That may improve over time especially since the LH number is probably not a normal homeostasis -- your system is expecting higher output. If nipples are reflecting high E2 then that should be treated but you really need a blood test to know.

To treat low-ish free T% and possible high E2, you could take low doses of proviron and your AI. Maybe 25mg/day and 0.25 mg/E3D. You may then be able to drop them after full recovery in 3-6 mos or however long it takes.

You need more bloodwork in a month or so to see how things are changing and the effects of the meds. And E2 has to be on there. Your doc may pooh pooh the test but the clueful endocrinologists and TRT docs *always* get it so that should tell you something.

Thanks, yeah I realised there was no E2 results when I got home last night. That wasn't because of the doctor, the lab assistant forgot to enter it on the form, but it's also my fault for not checking it. I requested them to do the test but the results will only be here tomorrow. The doctor also ordered an additional Liver test which I should get tomorrow. I will post the whole test results when I get them tomorrow then hopefully we can come up with a solution. I did manage to get the PCTs from someone else with the plan of ordering replacements before he starts his cycle, but obviously I'd prefer not to use them if they aren't needed.
 
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