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Interesting info and solutions for Deca/Npp use

ArgonCoagulator

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Very interesting read. They cite sources toward the end. a guy in a YouTube comment on Dr. Thomas O'Connors recent video on Deca recommended this article to me:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PEDsR/comments/812n58/nandrolone_deca_dick_real_cause_and_potential/

As I mentioned earlier in /r/peds, deca dick is not due to prolactin, is not due to estrogen, is not due to progesterone, it isnt because it is 19nor.

Nandrolone activates progesterone at 1/20th of the affinity of progesterone, thereby acts as an antagonist in most cases.

Nandrolone has Dopamine modulation effect, similar but different to Trenbolone.

Nandrolone through reward pathway modulation, can attenuate dopaminergic response.

DHT is not a by product of Nandrolone. DHT can be further metabolised to Neurosteroids which have potent antianxiety and antidepressant effect. DHN does have similar metabolites but lack these pharmacology.

Nandrolone and testosterone, both exogenously, in studies increase prolactin equally at equal doses

Nandrolone produces enough E1 that can be converted to E2 naturally by the body. Optimal doses to match natural levels would be around 300mg/wk.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone moral of the story, dont run it with testosterone.

Nandrolone produces DHN as a metabolite via 5-alpha reductase, this acts as partial agonist. And competitively displaces DHT from androgenic tissue, like in the penis.

DHT antagonises Estrogen in androgenic tissues and other places such as breast tissue. The lack of androgenic stimulation via DHN causes gyno symptoms to occur even with normal estrogen levels (NO it isn't from progesterone, or prolactin).

DHN can displace DHT and can partially activate the androgen receptors in androgenic tissues such as prostate and hair follicles, this can actually reverse prostate hypertrophy and cause hair regrowth.

The penis requires androgenic stimulation, which unfortunately you cannot get with Nandrolone. Hence why people run high dose Testosterone with Nandrolone to counteract the sex side effects, the concentration of DHT from the testosterone has to be significantly higher than DHN from nandrolone so that DHN does not displace DHT from the receptor.

What is actually causing 'deca dick'
- lack of neurosteroid production from DHT
- lack of penile androgen receptor stimulation AND brain androgen receptor stimulation
Dopaminergic response issues

What is not causing 'deca dick'
- not running testosterone or enough testosterone with Nandrolone
- Progesterone
- Estrogen
- Prolactin

So how do we solve this issue? Im against running testosterone with nandrolone. But there is a cure!

run 0.5mg-1mg Finasteride with your Nandrolone cycle everyday. This will inhibit a good portion of DHN. Results in 50% increase in androgenic activity and optimal stimulation of androgen receptors in androgenic tissue. This cures deca dick problem, it resolves psychological arousal (due to optimal androgen receptor stimulation in the brain)

But we are left with some issues. Once you do this, your skin will instantly get oily as fuck, you'll have acne out of no where and you lose some of the benefits of DHN. Plus, you want to fuck 24/7 and your dick agrees with you also. It seems like the dopaminergic issues resolve after the brain androgen receptors are optimally stimulated without DHN (as nandrolone will act as the parent agonist, without DHN antagonising Nandrolone).

Also, gyno symptoms would also disappear due to breast tissue estrogen receptor is antagonised by Nandrolone (no DHN to stop this).

So if we inhibit the formation of DHN, then nandrolone does not metabolise to a piss ass weak androgen in these local tissues (DHN works to antagonise nandrolones true androgenic potency as well, hence DHN actually reduces prostate size, and restores hair growth). With 5-AR inhibition, DHN does not get produced when nandrolone crosses local 5-AR tissues and thus instead would activate those local receptors much more potently.

Just some calculations.

lets take the following into consideration.

Nandrolone is a weak substrate for SHBG. So, overall, it is a much better anabolic than testosterone, even if you take the 125:37 vs 100:100 profile into consideration. therefore, there is more nandrolone per mg exogenously administered 'free' to bind to androgen receptors, than is testosterone per mg exogenously administered.

Nandrolone aromatises at the rate of 20% of Testosterone.

Lets say, we produce equivalent to 70mg/wk Testosterone enanthate. Taking the molecular mass of the ester into account, you would need an optimal 500-600mg NPP (or deca) per week to produce a decent amount of estrogen (but still within limits) - remember, you need neither high or low amount of estrogen for optimal mental and dick health - we also have to take into consideration the fact of how the androgenic potency of an anabolic would also act to oppose estrogen at the estrogen receptor.

Those who have done DECA only cycles and have complained about deca-dick - here is the only and only reason:

You didnt front load deca. so what occured is that the first 4-5 weeks whilst the ester is peaking in the blood, you arent getting sufficient blood androgen levels (levels not high enough to provide optimal androgen and estrogen signalling).

and/or you arent taking suffice dose. If you arent taking testosterone with your nandrolone, it makes logical sense to use more nandrolone (500-600mg/wk(

Best method is to front load... or just take NPP
 

samgraves82

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Very interesting read. They cite sources toward the end. a guy in a YouTube comment on Dr. Thomas O'Connors recent video on Deca recommended this article to me:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PEDsR/comments/812n58/nandrolone_deca_dick_real_cause_and_potential/

As I mentioned earlier in /r/peds, deca dick is not due to prolactin, is not due to estrogen, is not due to progesterone, it isnt because it is 19nor.

Nandrolone activates progesterone at 1/20th of the affinity of progesterone, thereby acts as an antagonist in most cases.

Nandrolone has Dopamine modulation effect, similar but different to Trenbolone.

Nandrolone through reward pathway modulation, can attenuate dopaminergic response.

DHT is not a by product of Nandrolone. DHT can be further metabolised to Neurosteroids which have potent antianxiety and antidepressant effect. DHN does have similar metabolites but lack these pharmacology.

Nandrolone and testosterone, both exogenously, in studies increase prolactin equally at equal doses

Nandrolone produces enough E1 that can be converted to E2 naturally by the body. Optimal doses to match natural levels would be around 300mg/wk.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone moral of the story, dont run it with testosterone.

Nandrolone produces DHN as a metabolite via 5-alpha reductase, this acts as partial agonist. And competitively displaces DHT from androgenic tissue, like in the penis.

DHT antagonises Estrogen in androgenic tissues and other places such as breast tissue. The lack of androgenic stimulation via DHN causes gyno symptoms to occur even with normal estrogen levels (NO it isn't from progesterone, or prolactin).

DHN can displace DHT and can partially activate the androgen receptors in androgenic tissues such as prostate and hair follicles, this can actually reverse prostate hypertrophy and cause hair regrowth.

The penis requires androgenic stimulation, which unfortunately you cannot get with Nandrolone. Hence why people run high dose Testosterone with Nandrolone to counteract the sex side effects, the concentration of DHT from the testosterone has to be significantly higher than DHN from nandrolone so that DHN does not displace DHT from the receptor.

What is actually causing 'deca dick'
- lack of neurosteroid production from DHT
- lack of penile androgen receptor stimulation AND brain androgen receptor stimulation
Dopaminergic response issues

What is not causing 'deca dick'
- not running testosterone or enough testosterone with Nandrolone
- Progesterone
- Estrogen
- Prolactin

So how do we solve this issue? Im against running testosterone with nandrolone. But there is a cure!

run 0.5mg-1mg Finasteride with your Nandrolone cycle everyday. This will inhibit a good portion of DHN. Results in 50% increase in androgenic activity and optimal stimulation of androgen receptors in androgenic tissue. This cures deca dick problem, it resolves psychological arousal (due to optimal androgen receptor stimulation in the brain)

But we are left with some issues. Once you do this, your skin will instantly get oily as fuck, you'll have acne out of no where and you lose some of the benefits of DHN. Plus, you want to fuck 24/7 and your dick agrees with you also. It seems like the dopaminergic issues resolve after the brain androgen receptors are optimally stimulated without DHN (as nandrolone will act as the parent agonist, without DHN antagonising Nandrolone).

Also, gyno symptoms would also disappear due to breast tissue estrogen receptor is antagonised by Nandrolone (no DHN to stop this).

So if we inhibit the formation of DHN, then nandrolone does not metabolise to a piss ass weak androgen in these local tissues (DHN works to antagonise nandrolones true androgenic potency as well, hence DHN actually reduces prostate size, and restores hair growth). With 5-AR inhibition, DHN does not get produced when nandrolone crosses local 5-AR tissues and thus instead would activate those local receptors much more potently.

Just some calculations.

lets take the following into consideration.

Nandrolone is a weak substrate for SHBG. So, overall, it is a much better anabolic than testosterone, even if you take the 125:37 vs 100:100 profile into consideration. therefore, there is more nandrolone per mg exogenously administered 'free' to bind to androgen receptors, than is testosterone per mg exogenously administered.

Nandrolone aromatises at the rate of 20% of Testosterone.

Lets say, we produce equivalent to 70mg/wk Testosterone enanthate. Taking the molecular mass of the ester into account, you would need an optimal 500-600mg NPP (or deca) per week to produce a decent amount of estrogen (but still within limits) - remember, you need neither high or low amount of estrogen for optimal mental and dick health - we also have to take into consideration the fact of how the androgenic potency of an anabolic would also act to oppose estrogen at the estrogen receptor.

Those who have done DECA only cycles and have complained about deca-dick - here is the only and only reason:

You didnt front load deca. so what occured is that the first 4-5 weeks whilst the ester is peaking in the blood, you arent getting sufficient blood androgen levels (levels not high enough to provide optimal androgen and estrogen signalling).

and/or you arent taking suffice dose. If you arent taking testosterone with your nandrolone, it makes logical sense to use more nandrolone (500-600mg/wk(

Best method is to front load... or just take NPP
Reading rest after work. Thanks brotha
 

ArgonCoagulator

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As you can see, the OP is more of a proponent of "Deca only", except even he admits that Deca will cause issues due to the DHT blunting effect caused by Deca's metabolite DHN. He says a rather large amount of testosterone would be needed to basically overcome the effects of DHN, but instead offers an alternative solution of using propecia to block the conversion of Deca - DHN, apparently this leaves you with adequate DHT levels without taking test.

I found it interesting that DHT antagonizes estrogen at the receptor level, which may explain why I'm getting gyno that isn't going away easily with the Adex and Nolva I'm using (probably unless I totally crush my e2 levels) and it's due to running 750mg/wk of total nandrolone with only 230mg of test, perhaps an inadequate DHT level is enhancing the effect of estrogen in my nipple's receptors? My libido and performance is still great though, but who knows...
 

ArgonCoagulator

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Also possible is that my e2 is skyrocketing due to the enhanced conversion of E1 to E2, a synergy that occurs when deca is combined with testosterone. This is more likely and it's possible I'm simply not taking enough nolva/Adex to fully combat this.
 

heckler7

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this info is all on cycle info, Deca dick is after your PCT and months later you still arent getting good boners.
 

zionoir626

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So AC....are you liking the Deca or not???
 

ArgonCoagulator

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this info is all on cycle info, Deca dick is after your PCT and months later you still arent getting good boners.

I thought Deca dick was any form of ED caused by on cycle or post cycle. I've personally never had issues.

That's the effect of DHN metabolites lingering in your system combined with low DHT levels from being off gear. I don't think ED issues are present if they cruise on TRT right?
 

ArgonCoagulator

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So AC....are you liking the Deca or not???

Oh yeah I'm definitely liking it! This is my second time running it, but with lower test this time and I feel better than when I ran 600mg of test. Only about a week, 3 shots in but I can feel it working somewhat as my recovery already seems enhanced. 250 deca and 60mg of Npp every 3 days, along with 100mg of sustanon E3D. I dropped the Dbol due to gyno but will try adding it back later.
 

HFO3

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Interesting read brotha. Has anyone here used finasteride? I have read finasteride can cause ED issues and in some cases they have been permanent.

More common

  • Decreased interest in sexual intercourse
  • inability to have or keep an erection
  • loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/finasteride-side-effects.html
 

BigJym

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Deca Dick is 90% broscience myth.
I run deca higher than test all the time. And never run test over 400mg (with nandralone over 400mg), and even that is rare as fuck, I usually never run test over 200mg/wk.
Libido is skyhigh, I don't know what these clowns are injecting that makes their dick limp, but 200mg of test with a respecible dose of nandralone (200-400mg) should cause 0 problems with the penis boners.


Not sure where the "test must be higher than deca" myth got started, but its dumb as fuck. If your test levels are legit you should be good with up to 600mg of 19nors with minimal sides, I mix deca and tren E an it's great, no sides what so ever other than getting SOOO SEXY. Bro Science will tell you NEVER RUN 2 19 NORS!!! Mick and I will tell you different (the one thing we agree on). Bro science is dumb as fuck.
 

SloppyJ

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1g of test on top of 600mg of deca. No issues here so far.

Good read.
 

samgraves82

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I.went 750/600 and had to tie a block to it to hold it down!!!
 

ArgonCoagulator

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Deca Dick is 90% broscience myth.
I run deca higher than test all the time. And never run test over 400mg (with nandralone over 400mg), and even that is rare as fuck, I usually never run test over 200mg/wk.
Libido is skyhigh, I don't know what these clowns are injecting that makes their dick limp, but 200mg of test with a respecible dose of nandralone (200-400mg) should cause 0 problems with the penis boners.


Not sure where the "test must be higher than deca" myth got started, but its dumb as fuck. If your test levels are legit you should be good with up to 600mg of 19nors with minimal sides, I mix deca and tren E an it's great, no sides what so ever other than getting SOOO SEXY. Bro Science will tell you NEVER RUN 2 19 NORS!!! Mick and I will tell you different (the one thing we agree on). Bro science is dumb as fuck.

I think some people who aren't great at converting Test into DHT are more likely to have ED issues when running more deca than test, or especially deca only. I think I'm a high converter because I get aggression and hairloss and even when I came off all gear after two years I had almost no lapse in libido while taking Serms clomid and nolva, but my energy was low. I think the fact that my D still worked well and I was still getting horny is due to my body's ability to make good use of the available androgens even if they are low.
 

Vision

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1g of test on top of 600mg of deca. No issues here so far.

Good read.
This, and with a little bit of mast..
My all time fav stack.. 750-1000mg test, 500-750 deca, 200 mast.. I feel at my best mentally and physically, and some proviron.
 

ageless1

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Wait so I'm confused......what is the proper dosage of Test to Deca then?
I'm on TRT and starting a new cycle of Test C 200 mg wk/100 mg of Deca along with 25 mg of D-bol for 6 wks.
 

Vision

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Wait so I'm confused......what is the proper dosage of Test to Deca then?
I'm on TRT and starting a new cycle of Test C 200 mg wk/100 mg of Deca along with 25 mg of D-bol for 6 wks.

There really is not a proper dosage.. because it comes down to personal preference.. there was suggested dosages..

I personally like to have my testosterone much higher than my nandrolone. With the addition of mast, you will often hear people say that mast is not necessary, they confuse it with being employed as something cosmetic.. it has nothing to do with anything cosmetic lol..

300-400 test
200-300 deca
25-50 mg

Is a decent little run for someone, it's not crazy aggressive.. it's nice and moderate.. personally I go way above that..
 
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