does my endo know his stuff?

[robbieboy672]

long story short I crashed my test after years of anabolic cruising and blasting. Total test was sub 100 and both LH and FSH were .1 and .2 (forget which one was which and don't have my bloodwork with me right now). The trt doctor I am seeing prescribed 500iu of HCG eod for 3 months and if future bloodwork shows high e2 or if I get any esttogen side effects at all he will prescribe me an AI.
Does this protocol make sense? I am 22 almost 23 and my goal is to get my natural test levels back and to permanently be off of anabolics. I also am taking a natty test/libido booster (mainly libido) because my libido has suffered dramatically and this product has gotten good reviews. Product is MTS Nutrition Insurgent. Anyway I guess I'm wondering if this protocol is just another band aid which will boost my levels while on or if it will help permanently boost my levels to a somewhat normal range again?

tldr: is 500iu hcg eod for 3 months good protocol to restore natural test levels?

 

[roscoe221]

It's a way to go. I'd do 1000 eod with adex for 3 weeks and get levels checked. If levels are decent start a serm protocol. If not, another 3 weeks hcg and adex and get bloodwork. If levels are decent, serm protocol. If not, trt time.

Kind of like the power pct.

 

[robbieboy672]

Right now all I have is 25,000 iu of hcg from a pharmacy. Is arimidex necessary? Money is a little tight right now. Also is serm cycle after hcg is discontinued necessary? My doctor seemed to think that 500iu eod hcg for 3 months would get the job done without a serm cycle after. Thank you for the response.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and so far I've been following what the doctor prescribed. Today was my 5th injection of 500iu.

 

[GYMnTONIC]

No he has no clue what he is doing.

HCG is suppressive and you will not return HPTA on any amount of HCG. You can "jumpstart" PCT or even HRT with HCG..but you do it low dosage and you only do a few shots and then you cease admnistration immediately.


The correct, first method of HRT, that does not include testosterone would be 25-50mgs of Clomid per day.

2nd step would generally be transdermals, Testim, Androgels... Even buccal muccosa oral patch would be included into this format. If this was not available or successful..then...

3rd step would generally be injectable testosterone (every 4- 7 days injected is the proper methodology) with a very low amount of HCG administered simultaneously.... 250iu 2x per week being the average and correct end for most..and 500iu 2x per week being the higher end for the average male...



Some doctors may alter this schedule and that is because they honestly have no clue what they are doing. I worked with dozens of Endos over the years and 99% of them have very little idea of what they are doing. They are aiming to get a male in the 3-500 nano range and that is not "optimal". They have no clue how to administer HCG..they in fact think that fertility dosaging is appropriate. I have seen endos prescribe 10,000 iu per week.

This will cause desensitization to the testicles and further damage the body.

 

[robbieboy672]

so is the hcg I have useless unless I follow it up with clomid then? Honestly what I have now is all I will be able to afford for about a month. How would you recommend I proceed knowing that all I have currently is a good amount of hcg and I have already pinned 500iu 5 times? Thank you so much for the responses.

 

[roscoe221]

It's not useless. The idea of using hcg is to stimulate the testes. The shutdown testes are the weak link in the chain coming off anabolics. The pituitary is faster to come online than the testes. So in theory you use the hcg to get them stimulated and producing testosterone again, then bring in the serms to get everything flowing to signal the testes to keep producing testosterone. The hcg speeds up the process of "waking up" the testes.

The idea I said previously is a way to gauge things. If you are getting a poor testosterone number while on that high dose of hcg, you're not going to get it higher using serms. At least from a simple pct standpoint.

 

[GYMnTONIC]

You will jumpstart Test on HCG..

but you will never "return' HPTA on HCG..

So unless you are jumpstarting the HCG with the clomid..what you are doing is useless.

What good does it do, to have a false HPTA level for a 30 day period only to crash? It makes no sense.

You have to have an accumulating value. HCG is only a "spike". That is not a stable blood plasma factor.

Mind you I am speaking to you having worked in the field and competing as a bodybuilder. HCG solo for PCT is probably one of the most useless ideas I have ever heard in 20+ years...

 

[GYMnTONIC]

It's not useless. The idea of using hcg is to stimulate the testes. The shutdown testes are the weak link in the chain coming off anabolics. The pituitary is faster to come online than the testes. So in theory you use the hcg to get them stimulated and producing testosterone again, then bring in the serms to get everything flowing to signal the testes to keep producing testosterone. The hcg speeds up the process of "waking up" the testes.

The idea I said previously is a way to gauge things. If you are getting a poor testosterone number while on that high dose of hcg, you're not going to get it higher using serms. At least from a simple pct standpoint.

This is bad information man.

Where did you receive your information? Have you worked in the field? Have you ever been licensed to adminster meds?

How many endos and urologists have you worked with? How many labs have you reviewed in your lifetime under these circumstances?

In no way is HCG a "gauge"....this has nothing to do with total or free testosterone capability...

 

[ldog]

Wesley makes solid points. The clomid would be a first choice and hopefully this helps your cause. Of course, I'm not a fan of long term use of Clomid due to possible vision issues. My biggest concern for you is that you get your Test levels back in the normal/high normal range as its very unhealthy to have low T levels. You may end up being a candidate for TRT if your natural Test production doesn't kick in. What AAS compounds did you use frequently?

 

[robbieboy672]

Over the 3 year period I have probably used close to everything. A lot of the time cruising but plenty of times taking stupid and completely unnecessary high doses of anything I could get my hands on as well.
So I started 500iu eod of hcg on September 8th. If I am able to find money to order clomid soon how do you recommend I proceed. I would really appreciate any input at all. Thank you so much for all of the responses.

 

[zionoir626]

THIS thread should be in the stickys..!!! to show not only younger but less experienced users of what can happen and often does if proper PCT is not done...........

 

[GYMnTONIC]

Over the 3 year period I have probably used close to everything. A lot of the time cruising but plenty of times taking stupid and completely unnecessary high doses of anything I could get my hands on as well.
So I started 500iu eod of hcg on September 8th. If I am able to find money to order clomid soon how do you recommend I proceed. I would really appreciate any input at all. Thank you so much for all of the responses.

I honestly want you to hear more information then just mine if possible.

And Roscoe is right about waking up the testes with HCG...he very much has good intent and I applaud him for his help (no intent to disrespect you Roscoe)

As for the Clomid. Doctors in general prescribe 25-50mgs ED. Depends on how shut down you are. Now, some people still want an AI while on Clomid but you "don't" necessarily have to have it. Remember Clomid is an "anti-estrogen" in itself...but it is pretty weak. So depending on how much fluctuation you have will depend if you need something like Nolva on the side. Nolva as well will assist in bringing back function.

So would doing a few shots of HCG in the very beginning, then doing a Clomid or a Clomid and Nolva combo work?

Yes it "should". In most users we see that it takes 2-12 months to return HPTA.

There are various things you can do in the meantime to help. Some people use non suppressive herbs too, such as Pine Pollen Tincture (gives strong erections also), Some people think that DAA will help them.

I will say this, if money is not an issue I have my guys run MK677 while coming off as well, to help with appetite and recovery and to not lose as much size/muscle.

Clomid can be run for several months. When you are on Clomid your natural levels will test higher then they actually are per say. So if you are on 50mgs of clomid and after 6 months your levels are testing you out at say 700nanos. "Chances" are...when you come off, and test a month later "off" the clomid, you might be a 550 nano now.

That is if you are lucky to return to a healthy level.

Studies show that using AAS cycles, even once can permanently lower your "resting" testosterone levels, aka what you would consider your "natural" HPTA. Though I will say this, in brief AAS users, who have done maybe 1- 2 cycles only, I have never seen someone "not" return to HPTA. Long term AAS users like myself..very rarely do they ever return to a healthy HPTA. I PCT'd many years back and after months I was only able to hit a 3-400nano level and felt like crap. Some people will "feel" fine at such a level..but I did not. So I simply returned to my prescribed HRT, and I am very happy and in a "natural" range. (240-1100 on many tests is considered natural and not super-physiological)

 

[robbieboy672]

Alright thank you so much everybody for all the responses. I will talk to my doctor and try to get Clomiphene prescribed, and if I cannot I will go the research chem route. I know plenty of places to get it, but does anyone know somewhere that sells capsules? I'm a huge baby and would prefer not to have to down the liquid. Or at least the place that sells the least offensive liquid?

Thank you again everybody, greatly appreciated

 

[robbieboy672]

I was able to speak to my doctor with almost no notice and I told him about the concerns addressed in this thread. He said his original plan was to check bloodwork at the 10 week mark and if testosterone was recovering from the hcg and depending on my estradiol levels and how I am feeling then I would stop the hcg and use clomid or anastrozole for 45-90 days depending on bloodwork again. And after that he is hoping my hpta will be back to functioning somewhat normally again.

 

[GYMnTONIC]

I was able to speak to my doctor with almost no notice and I told him about the concerns addressed in this thread. He said his original plan was to check bloodwork at the 10 week mark and if testosterone was recovering from the hcg and depending on my estradiol levels and how I am feeling then I would stop the hcg and use clomid or anastrozole for 45-90 days depending on bloodwork again. And after that he is hoping my hpta will be back to functioning somewhat normally again.

And once again he has no clue what he is talking about.

You "cannot" and let me stress...100% cannot "Recover" or "re-establish" testosterone levels from HCG.

What he is going to see is a "spike" in testosterone..and he will wrongfully interpret that, as that your body is "recovering".

Think of it like this. If you did a super low dose shot of Testosterone..and then you were at a 700nanogram level and then your doctor said..."no reason to prescribe clomid, or anything else...you are fully recovered." This is literally no different then that. Exactly the same thing. A suppressive compound that is spiking your levels but when you cease administration, they crash immediately.

Get it?

I cannot fathom he is that uneducated and ignorant...actually yes I can.

 

[robbieboy672]

And once again he has no clue what he is talking about.

You "cannot" and let me stress...100% cannot "Recover" or "re-establish" testosterone levels from HCG.

What he is going to see is a "spike" in testosterone..and he will wrongfully interpret that, as that your body is "recovering".

Think of it like this. If you did a super low dose shot of Testosterone..and then you were at a 700nanogram level and then your doctor said..."no reason to prescribe clomid, or anything else...you are fully recovered." This is literally no different then that. Exactly the same thing. A suppressive compound that is spiking your levels but when you cease administration, they crash immediately.

Get it?

I cannot fathom he is that uneducated and ignorant...actually yes I can.

This was what he responded with when I asked him about hcg being suppressive and if he thought following it with a serm would be a good idea.
"We have both Clomid and Anastrozole (both good estrogen blockers although different pathways).*
The key for either to be necessary would be a relatively high testosterone level. I’m very comfortable with checking your Testosterone and Estradiol level at around the 10 week mark and then we can make an informed decision based on how you’re felling and the blood levels."

 

[GYMnTONIC]

This was what he responded with when I asked him about hcg being suppressive and if he thought following it with a serm would be a good idea.
"We have both Clomid and Anastrozole (both good estrogen blockers although different pathways).*
The key for either to be necessary would be a relatively high testosterone level. I’m very comfortable with checking your Testosterone and Estradiol level at around the 10 week mark and then we can make an informed decision based on how you’re felling and the blood levels."

And once again where he is either misunderstanding or misinformed, or both.

You are not using Clomid because it is an anti estrogen. That just so happens to be a fact about Clomiphene that is totally secondary to the reason you are using it.

You are using it to attempt to re-establish Natural HPTA..and because it is not Suppressive.

Blocking estrogen is not even remotely the issue here. Lowering Estrogen in most cases will elevate Testosterone, but the point here is to "stimulate" Natural Testosterone production.

This is just horrific advise, and I don't think that I can help you any further if you are going to follow his advice.

We all have to crash and burn sometimes to actually listen.

Here are some studies you may want to send this "doctor". He clearly does not understand that HCG is suppressive. After you administer it and remain off of it, your testosterone levels will plummett and you will be back at square one..once again....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22951175

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22044663

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12904801

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182219/

 

[robbieboy672]

I'm not planning on listening to him. You sound much more educated on the subject and now that I am looking into it everything I see agrees with you. If I am able to get him to prescribe clomid right now (I think I will be able to), then what protocol would you recommend I follow. Knowing that I have been taking 500iu eod of hcg and will have on hand a good supply of hcg and clomid, and I work at a vitamin shoppe so I have access to most otc test boosting supplements?
I'm sorry for all of the questions, I should've researched more initially. I'd just really love to be able to get my hpta back to functioning somewhat normal if at all possible.

 

[roscoe221]

No I haven't worked in the field. I have a childhood friend and another friend from college who are endos. I bounce questions off them or have them point me in the right direction for studies from time to time. They both seem to subscribe to the notion that if you run a solid dose of hcg and get get a number of say 400. Continue in the hcg for another couple weeks and retest, and the number comes back in the same range then that is the best you can hope for when the other medications are done. That you can't expect a number of 800 if all you got from a good dose protocol was 400.

Could it be wrong? Hell yes. They have also told me that in their field results are hard to replicate. That what works guy a doesn't work at all for guy b and that even among other docs in the field opinions can vary widely in the best way to treat certain issues. Obviously only to a certain degree. Sounds like a crazy field. Wish I got to see them boys more. We used to tear it up back in the day.

Another crazy thing, the docs I know in real life are nothing like they are on tv. They are all weirdos. Very smart in their field but very different in I guess what you would call their "personal" life. Ones a doomsday prepper and the other couldn't talk to a woman to save his life, he finally ended up with one he met online.

 

[DanDuchain]

As mentioned, HCG is suppressive. To complete the endocrine chain (PT/HYPO) you need a SERM. HCG has an important role in pct but will most likely aggravate your shutdown. It also produces estro like crazy.

 

[DanDuchain]

Your doc: "We have both Clomid and Anastrozole (both good estrogen blockers although different pathways).*

No, no, and no. One is a Selective Estrogen Regulating Module, the other (an Aromatase Inhibtor) crushes estro at a molecular level. SERMS bond at the receptor site. What SERMS do can be described as "blocking." Sort of Kind of...like footbal.

It is like saying a pathway in China is close to a pathway in Mexico.

What an AI does is more like a MINI GUN. It kills everyone on the playing field. HCG stimulates the Leydig cells in your balls. Then your balls tell the rest of your endocrine system that everything is fine.

Any decent Urologist will tell you that slamming that much HCG is ticket to never having children.

 

[DanDuchain]

Over the 3 year period I have probably used close to everything. A lot of the time cruising but plenty of times taking stupid and completely unnecessary high doses of anything I could get my hands on as well.
So I started 500iu eod of hcg on September 8th. If I am able to find money to order clomid soon how do you recommend I proceed. I would really appreciate any input at all. Thank you so much for all of the responses.

I do not mean to hurt you or insult you in any way. I am simply laying out the science. The male endocrine system does not fully mature until the age of 24. If you run heavy cycles prior to this age you risk serious damage. Hope fully Clomid and or Nolva can restore your system.

 

[robbieboy672]

is the common consensus here to get my hands on clomid and as soon as it comes in drop the hcg and start clomid? thank you for all the input, appreciate the help and concern.

 

[robbieboy672]

Alright so he is prescribing me clomid now, it should be sent to my house within 1-2 weeks. Firstly I want to thank everyone who has given advice in this thread again. It has been tremendously helpful and you have all saved me from a world of trouble and I appreciate it so much.
So right now after reading through this my plan is to continue the hcg at 500iu eod until the clomid comes in and then drop it and switch to clomid only, plus maybe a d asaprartic acid or pine pollen extract based test booster. I don't know how much clomid I will be getting yet but I am planning on starting at 40 mg a day for two weeks and titrating down from there given that I have enough for that.

 

[DanDuchain]

Run HCG for 2 weeks, 1500 e2d. Ideally we would have estro labs but take 1mg A Dex very time you do a shot of HCG. Run A Dex untl 4 days after last shot of HCG.

The day after last shot of HCG run 100 mgs Clomid (one 50 mg tab in morning, one at night) and 20 mgs of Nolva. Run this for 10 days. Drop Clomid to 50 mgs/day plus 20 nolva for 5 days. Then 10 mgs Nolva 50 Clomid 5 days. Then 50 mgs Clomid for 5 days.

25 day total.

 

[DanDuchain]

Alright so he is prescribing me clomid now, it should be sent to my house within 1-2 weeks. Firstly I want to thank everyone who has given advice in this thread again. It has been tremendously helpful and you have all saved me from a world of trouble and I appreciate it so much.
So right now after reading through this my plan is to continue the hcg at 500iu eod until the clomid comes in and then drop it and switch to clomid only, plus maybe a d asaprartic acid or pine pollen extract based test booster. I don't know how much clomid I will be getting yet but I am planning on starting at 40 mg a day for two weeks and titrating down from there given that I have enough for that.

No, 40 mgs/day will not get the job done. Also, your body is cranking out estro from the HCG. It would take a 20 page article for me to explain all the problems that this estro will cause.

 

[DanDuchain]

You need someone who knows what they are doing. I do, but I am not authorized to pull clients from this web site.

 

[robbieboy672]

You need someone who knows what they are doing. I do, but I am not authorized to pull clients from this web site.

You have already helped a ton and gave great advice, thank you so much.

 

[DanDuchain]

Sure. There are several good sources on this site you can/could get Clomid/AI/Nolva from. Stay away from places like Professional Muscle (you will get scammed and banned) or MESO, unless you like long protracted childish arguments. Muscle GURU is all resellers, you don't want that, trust me. I use PPL but they are international raws. Find someone here who has domestic finished Clomid. My mentor is my name. I have been in this game for nearly 25 years. I have absolutely no reason to kiss anyone's ass, when I say this place is good, trust me.

You are going to need more than 40 mgs of Clomid a day. Final stage endocrine restoration is not covered in med school. Follow the protocol I gave you. There are others here who are well qualified. For what it is worth, I have advanced degrees and am published. Having said that, there are people on this board smarter than me.

 

[heckler7]

if you inject testosterone your balls will shrink, they shrink because your LH stops stimulation to the leydig cells in your nuts
hcg stimulates leydig cells. you dont use hcg for pct, trt or on a heavy cycle