Aromasin throughout cycle, but during PCT? *Cycle Help*

[massthetics]

So here's my cycle.. Question about PCT is at the bottom. I'm 25 and this is my third run with AAS. I weigh 205 at 5'9". Cycle:

D-Bol @ 50mg/day (weeks 1-6)
TestProp @ 100mg/eod (weeks 1-6)


Test-E @
750mg/wk (weeks 1-8)
1000 mg/wk (weeks 9-12)
1250 mg/wk (weeks 13-16)

Deca @
400mg/wk (weeks 1-15)


Aromasin @ 10mg/day (weeks 1-17)
Caber@ 1mg/wk (weeks 7-17)
HCG@ 1000iu/wk (weeks 7-17)

*PCT:
Aromasin@ 10/10/10/10/10 (weeks 18-23)
Clomid@ 50/50/50/50/50 (weeks 18-23)
Nolva@ 20/20/20/20/20 (weeks 18-23) P.S. I have put a lot of time and research into this cycle. The only thing that I have seen no resolve on is whether or not there is any benefit to running an AI (in this case, aromasin) throughout PCT. I have been suggested to do so; However, from my understanding, it is used to keep extra testosterone in the body (combo of endogenous/exogenous) from being aromatized into estrogen. I believe the notion that it is unnecessary during PCT comes from the idea that the exogenous test administration has ceased. I do, however, understand the fact that just because you have stopped pinning does not mean that there is no longer extra test in circulation. Buildup of the test-e and deca occur over the course of the cycle itself, and the HCG will have maintained my natural test production. I am, however, puzzled by the suggestion to use an AI throughout PCT given that a break is taken between the cycle itself and the start of PCT specifically for the purpose of allowing the esters to clear. Is there any extra test to worry about being aromatized if the esters have already cleared? Is it perhaps to keep what testosterone still exists from being converted? If this is the case, I would hypothesize that a low dose throughout PCT would be all that is necessary to maintain the current test levels, since the estrogen is already being taken care of. **Comments?

 

[jmpman23]

Obviously blood work will be the only sure way to know where your estrogen sits at 10mg a day of aromasin, but something tells me you are going to want to up that to at least 12.5 mg a day if not more. Everyone is different, but with dbol in your stack and that high a dose of test I'm willing to bet estrogen will be high.

 

[massthetics]

jmpman23, that is just what I'll be running.. I have more to utilize if estrogen/progesterone-related sides arise. If I can get by on 10 mg a day, then I will, but I have enough to up the dose if needed.

 

[massthetics]

needless to say 23 weeks means 5.75 months supply of aromasin.. already most expensive part of my cycle by far. thanks for the tip though jmpman, got me considering getting one more bottle for latter part of cycle. got enough for 40 days at 20mg a day after the initial amount so how bout this.. Cycle: D-Bol @ 50mg/day (weeks 1-6)
*need 210 tabs


TestProp @ 100mg/eod (weeks 1-6)
*need 21 ml


Test-E @
750mg/wk (weeks 1-6)
1000 mg/wk (weeks 7-12)
1250 mg/wk (weeks 13-16)
*need 62 ml total

Deca @
400mg/wk (weeks 1-15)
*need 30 ml

-Support:
Aromasin @
10mg/day (weeks 1-12)
then 20mg/day (weeks 13-16)
10mg/day (weeks 17-23)


Caber@ 1mg/wk (weeks 7-17)
HCG@ 1000iu/wk (weeks 7-17)

-PCT:
Clomid@ 50/50/50/50/50 (weeks 18-23)
Nolva@ 20/20/20/20/20 (weeks 18-23)

*will have some caber left over if any progesterone related sides come up during PCT


this will give me a higher dose of aromasin (20mg/day) when the test dose and aromatization risk are highest. whatcha think?

 

[massthetics]

meant to make it 22 weeks rather than 23 for the end of aromasin, nolva, and clomid use.

 

[DaMaster]

As mentioned above, blood work is your friend. Without it we're all guess what our needs are inside. I will say that I ran HCG "during" a cycle for the first time ever and got some gyno. Never had it before in all my years. So the added natty production to the run pushed whatever limit I had. I say this because the HCG in your PCT may necessitate an AI for you, as well as the new found surge in your natty production because of the rest of the PCT. So I'd say yes, AI through PCT as well.

Now, Aromasin, being a suicide inhibitor, that stays attached to the receptor for the life of the receptor, "might" indicate a need for less at a certain time, depending on saturation levels and your blood work and E2 levels. You don't want to crash your E2 either. Presumably during PCT your natty production won't yield as high a test number in blood work as your cycle does so the need for the same amount of Asin might not be needed. It may... but that's where the blood work comes in again. Gotta know what's going on inside at all times.

:just my 2cents:

 

[chocolatemalt]

Just a nit, but I assume you mean to start PCT on week #19 and not 18? That would leave 17 and 18 as your standard two week gap.

Even with that adjustment however, it may not be long enough to let 1.2g/wk of enanthate esters clear. The half life will be 5 days during "free fall" after you're done pinning, but about 7 days from any individual pin due to the added distribution delay of the depot. If we assume your test regimen gets you up to 8000 ng/dL, you'll still be at 2000 after 12 days, right before starting PCT. And your levels will actually be a little higher due to HCG driving your natural production. So the first part of PCT will be "wasted" in a sense since you'll still be way above the levels at which your HPTA would start to do anything. I would wait three weeks.

But as DaMaster said, blood work is key.

I'd get a full work up right at the end of week #16 so you know what your actual levels are instead of that 8000 assumption. You'll have to add in the "lc/ms-ms" test ($89) to see levels that high. You may also want to throw in lipids to see how far south they've gone, as well as prolactin to see what the Deca/Caber combo is doing. This gets expensive quickly but it's your health, so...

Then right at the start of PCT you could get another test as a sanity check on your timing. If levels *should* be below 1500 based on the half lives and the result of the previous blood work, you could get by with only the female hormone panel and keep it cheap.

Another thing to keep in mind: Aromasin use at 1.2 g/day of test may not be strong enough to control your E2. Even at 20 or 25 mg/day. Many guys use Arimidex instead for that reason, then switch to Aromasin in the weeks before and during PCT.

And regarding AI during PCT, it won't hurt so long as you don't actually crush E2. Which Aromasin won't do. If you keep E2 very low, you've got a double-whammy (alongside your SERMs) against the estrogen receptors in your hypothalamus and ptuitary, and you should therefore be kickstarting them a bit faster. It also serves as a form of insurance against any component of your AIs or SERMs being underdosed or bunk which is a big problem in the UGL world unfortunately. If you're going pharm grade then no worries there.

 

[massthetics]

Here's what I got.. I got a two weeks gap post-cycle before I start PCT. My PCT is scheduled for five weeks, so if it hasn't cleared during the first week, I'll still have 4 weeks of PCT to go. -Cycle:

D-Bol @ 50mg/day (weeks 1-6)
*need 210 tabs


TestProp @ 100mg/eod (weeks 1-6)
*need 21 ml


Test-E@
750mg/wk (weeks 1-6)
1000 mg/wk (weeks 7-12)
1250 mg/wk (weeks 13-16)
*need 62 ml total

Deca@
400mg/wk (weeks 1-15)
*need 30 ml

-Support:
Aromasin@
10mg/day (weeks 1-12)
20mg/day (weeks 13-16)
10mg/day (weeks 17-24)


Caber@ 1mg/wk (weeks 8-18)
HCG@ 1000iu/wk (weeks 8-18)

-PCT:
Clomid@ 50/50/50/50/50 (weeks 19-23)
Nolva@ 20/20/20/20/20 (weeks 19-23)

*will have some caber left over if anyprogesterone related sides come up during PCT

 

[chocolatemalt]

That looks pretty good. You should have some adex or letro on hand just as an emergency brake should the aromasin wind up not doing the job and E2 levels soar out of control.

Also, I'd get bloodwork at week #4 specifically to see where your liver stress markers are in response to the dbol... if way out of range, cut it off asap.

 

[Warchild]

Solid advice. I like using aeromasin because it is friendly in the lipid profile. I ran it with pct once but I was doing a test taper pct. I presume the results would be similar but blood work is the only way to know for sure. If you do get the work done I would be interested with the results.

 

[massthetics]

Good tip. I have a whole bottle of aegis by antaeus labs which I plan to utilize with the dbol. Thinking about upping the deca to 600 a week at week 7 same time as I will stop dbol and test prop as well as increase test e dose to 1000 a week. How does 1000 to 600 test-e to deca ratio look? I have liquid adex already on hand.


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[massthetics]

And as far as blood work goes, during what week would you consider it most essential? I'd like to only do it once with how expensive they can be. I'm thinking week 15 before I start PCT.


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[massthetics]

Thanks chocolate malt.. I'll consider getting lipids checked at week 4.. But above question refers to when I should do it regarding E2 levels and planning PCT


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[Velociraptor44]

I like that you are running PCT for 5 weeks. I like a 6 week run myself. Maybe stretch the Nova an extra week at 20 mgs to be safe.

As far as the aromasin, Im on the fence about adding it to PCT. I pprefer a combo 2 serm PCT and adding aromasin seems like overkill to me. Although running aromasin right up to your PCT is ideal IMO.

 

[Streettime]

Thanks chocolate malt.. I'll consider getting lipids checked at week 4.. But above question refers to when I should do it regarding E2 levels and planning PCT


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Repped for having a funny ass avatar!

 

[massthetics]

"I command you to grow!" -CT Fletcher, talking to his arm on preacher curls


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[Skip Foursome]

I was thinking the same thing Street! CT Fletcher is the man.

 

[jaxxtx]

I am running Aromasin with Test E 750 week cycle I was going to stack Mast P at 500 wk.
Does the Mast actually block estrogen production or does it just not stimulate prodiction itself? Also, if it does indeed block the estrogen what I need to continue using Aromasin?

 

[Velociraptor44]

Mast won't block estro..... it just helps with estro related sides like bloat jaxx. What dose you running the aromasin at?

 

[jaxxtx]

Mast won't block estro..... it just helps with estro related sides like bloat jaxx. What dose you running the aromasin at?

10mg eod

 

[Velociraptor44]

That should be fine..... just monitor your sides mane.

 

[jaxxtx]

Thnx

 

[chocolatemalt]

And as far as blood work goes, during what week would you consider it most essential? I'd like to only do it once with how expensive they can be. I'm thinking week 15 before I start PCT.

The bloodwork only gets expensive when you start trying to measure test levels above 1500, or other things like prolactin. Not that those things aren't worth knowing but if cost is critical you can usually skip em and just monitor for sides if you don't mind possibly enduring some sexual dysfunction and/or under-performing gear. The basic female hormone panel is cheap at $50, at least compared to the costs of all the gear and the extra food.

If this is your first cycle you should definitely get a baseline lab before your first pin. It's your only chance ever to get a clean test before messing with your system. Otherwise if things go wrong during/after PCT you'll never know for sure what your natural levels should be.

Here's an ideal schedule IMO:

pre-cycle: baseline (if necessary) female hormone panel -- $51
4th week: female hormone panel + lc/ms-ms -- $51 + $76
8th week: female hormone panel + prolactin + lipids -- $51 + $37 + $41
16th week: female hormone panel + lc/ms-ms + prolactin + lipids -- $51 + $76 + $37 + $41
post-PCT: female hormone panel -- $51
4 wks post-PCT: female hormone panel -- $51

Costs are after 15% coupon.

If any of those tests show problems then more testing should be added as appropriate. E.g. E2 or prolactin out of control could indicate bunk ancillaries, so you gotta switch... but are the new ancillaries bunk as well, or are you taking the right dose? Only one way to know for sure. Waiting another month or two or till after the cycle would be unwise.

If you have a cooperative doctor and good insurance you might be able to get at least the lipids covered with normal office visits, if not the hormone tests themselves.

Obviously that list of labs is way more than you want to do, and probably half the guys on this board skip bloodwork altogether and just go by feel and prayers. But poke around a bit and you'll find many threads of guys having problems with underdosed gear, underdosed or bunk ancillaries, guys losing control of E2 and getting gyno occasionally requiring surgery (and you thought bloodwork was expensive...), and many cases of failed PCT leading to major recovery problems that sometimes are permanent. In most of these cases bloodwork would have caught the problem much earlier than just waiting for sides. Even some of our best sponsors have some quality control issues once in a while so you gotta be prepared for that... just part of the game we're playing.

 

[massthetics]

Thanks chocolatemalt, I'll keep all of that in mind. Really helpful and will refer back during cycle. Will most likely do labs. Thanks.


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