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    Quote Originally Posted by Bft84 View Post
    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
    Epicurus

    Also there’s is ample evidence that freewill does not exist and merely an illusion. If freewill does not exist this negates the Bible and most other religious texts, ergo negates all religions.

    That was your 666 post. Coincidence?


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    OK...I got some time.

    Given what I know of Open Theism, it says God doesn't know the future. If I'm wrong about this, correct me. I'm loathe to dismiss possible interpretations, especially where multiple interpretations exist (again, I'm open minded). However, I'm even more loathe to try and place limits on God. If I'm going to err on the side of caution in any possible situation, I'm going to err on God's side. Every time. Having said that, here's a few scriptural references that would be hard to dismiss to take an Open Theism view.

    God challenges the idols/false gods in Isaiah 41. Quite literally, if you are a god, tell us what will happen next.

    22 “Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
    Let them show the former things, what they were,
    That we may consider them,
    And know the latter end of them;
    Or declare to us things to come.
    23 Show the things that are to come hereafter,
    That we may know that you are gods;
    Yes, do good or do evil,
    That we may be dismayed and see it together.
    24 Indeed you are nothing,
    And your work is nothing;
    He who chooses you is an abomination.

    Jesus also used the future to convince the disciples:

    John 13:19
    19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

    Just a few others:
    Psalm 139:4
    Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
    (If we can't control our next thought, how can God begin to predict what we will say?)

    Psalm 139:16
    “Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them”
    (surely a freewill suicide would wreck this, no? Or even someone else's free will to murder.)

    1 John 3:20
    “For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything”
    (Everything. A pretty all encompassing word. Not "most things" or "provided that this happens"...zero contingencies.)

    One last mind bender. Why did God kill Onan for spilling his seed? He definitely wasn't the first or last dude to pull out so he didn't get a chick pregnant. Why was it such a big deal this one time? Because Onan would have been responsible for Jesus' lineage. Yes, you could argue that Onan wrecked God's plans *for* the future. But I'm going to take this example back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. Actions have consequences.

    You could also argue where God predicts names, etc for people who aren't born yet. Probably the hardest one to dispute would be Cyrus since not only did God name him, but also said he would lead His people. I think that was 175yrs before it happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    I got company this weekend, so I'll have to wait to expand on this conversation. But....I have one question. Is God the creator of all things? (No, this isn't a "did God create evil" topic.) But did God create all things?

    Good conversation, btw. And yes, I'll throw in some philosophy as long as it doesn't conflict with scripture. Or as a talking point, but only a talking point. There's definitely a lot of topics in the bible that are left open to conjecture. But I do think God knows the future.
    Sorry this took so long. I wanted to think through my answer for a while as I don't want to have this discussion turn into a copy and paste war. Once discussions reach that point its obvious that the other person is just trying to "win" an argument. Therefore my answer took some time to put into words. A thought occurred to me that I have never thought of before so it was a productive process.

    The scriptures state that God The Word created all things that were created (made). This implies some things were not created. I think we can both agree that God was not created and that He existed in some sort of Triune relationship for eternity past.

    John 1:1-3 ESV
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    skipping to verse 14 we see that pre existent Christ was the Word. 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Genesis account discusses all types of physical things that God spoke into existence. God spoke matter and energy into being however He formed Man out of matter as He also did Woman so mankind was a special creation.

    Not to get too far off topic but Colossians teaches that an image of God was the first thing created so we were made in the image of that image. Some scholars think this image was what God the Son walked around in in the Old Testament.
    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (the firstborn of every creature). So God the Word existed in eternity past then made an image that he indwelled. We were then made in the image of that image.

    So are there other things besides God that God did not create? I think the answer is absolutely yes. If God is love and God has always existed then love has always existed and was not created. In fact all of the attributes of God have existed forever. Holiness, justice, wisdom, etc. (This was a new thought for me) I didn't read this anywhere it just makes sense that goodness has always existed because God has always existed and God is good. If time is just the distance between 2 events then time has also always existed because God has always existed. These things are inherent to who God is. Without Him none of these things would have existed in eternity past.

    Some philosophers have said that God created time but I think that's a misunderstanding of the definition of time. But much worse, they are saying God was stagnant before the creation. They are saying there were no events before the creation of the world. This is NOT the personal dynamic God of the Bible.


    If God determines to make something happen in the future and then makes it
    happen this would appear to look like He looked into the future but in reality He just made it happen. Similarly if God thwarts mans freewill for an eternal purpose that would also look like God saw the future when in fact He just made it happen.

    Anyway, I have a lot more to write but I need to think about how to communicate it.

    Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this.



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    This is 100% discussion for me. Even more so because it is *not* a matter of salvation, in my eyes. I might try to "win an argument" if I thought someone's salvation was in jeopardy. Anyone who has studied as much as you have, has not come to conclusions quickly or haphazardly. So I'd never poo-poo on your thoughts or opinions. But I'm sure you know that. If I do, let me know. After all, a rebuke *is* scriptural.

    So let's say God doesn't know the future, but He knows the plans He has for the future. There are *way* more scriptures that speak to the plans He has for His followers. Good plans. So we can still take comfort that the plans He has for us are good ones. I'm sure you're familiar, so I won't copy/paste a bunch here. This one sums it up pretty well:

    Jeremiah 29:11
    For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.

    I appreciate the time and effort to post from everyone. This is the most discussion I have on this subject and it spurs me to engage in the Word again. Where I otherwise might not. I got overloaded a few years ago and most things went on cruise control. Including my spirituality. So I really enjoy this thread and everyone's thoughts. Not sure if I've posted it before, but my prayer for this thread is simply that it brings us closer together and closer to God.

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    A verse that came to mind later:

    Proverbs 27:17

    As iron sharpens iron,
    So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

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    If god doesn't work in the manner we as humans operate in time. Could it be possible thru gods hand everything is currently happening and there is no future days planned as Each day isn't promised. This making each day a new beginning for us humans?

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    Time is always an interesting topic for me. I'll share a little story back from my early days of poverty and hard work.

    My buddy and I both worked 3+ jobs to make ends meet. Two of the jobs we shared: moving furniture by day and odd jobs on evenings and weekends. One day had been particularly hard and we'd busted our asses. It was miserably hot and we'd finally got a delivery that was about an hour away, so we'd have a nice drive time break. Neither one of us had grabbed anything to drink prior to leaving. No a/c in the truck. We were both broke, so stopping and grabbing something was out of the question. So I began to pray. Pray for a small tip when we delivered the furniture, anything. Just something to buy a drink with. Tips were pretty rare, but I knew we were expected to haul off some old furniture, so I was hopeful.

    We get there and the furniture to haul off was obviously old. The recliner was probably pushing 20yrs. My buddy and I grabbed it and lifted. Immediately coins began falling out. And I don't mean like a few, it added to a pile that was a few inches thick already under this chair. An insane number of coins and unlike anything we'd ever seen. The family joked and said to give the chair a good shake and see what else would fall out. So we did. Knowing that with each shake, it meant less change for us to buy something to drink. We finally carried the chair out, with coins falling with almost every step to the truck. We finished the job and ended up hauling off the chair and some old bedroom furniture (no mattresses stuffed with cash though). They did tip us a few bucks, enough to buy drinks. But the chair was still waiting.

    My buddy and I drive down the road a ways and stopped to investigate the chair. Now that we could actually look at how it was made, we could see how all these coins had collected inside the upholstery on the sides. The chair was beyond saving for any purpose, so I took my knife and cut the fabric along the bottom of the chair. Coins poured out. Easily another $10-15 in change. We stopped at the nearest gas station and bought drinks and something to eat. And I gave thanks. Definitely the most thankful I've ever been for gas station food and drinks.

    So God definitely hears our thoughts and our unspoken prayers. As this story relates to our current discussion, did God know in the past that we would be there that day to get that chair and we would need money to buy drinks and food? Did He cause the person to slowly lose change out of his pockets over those 20 years? Or did He perform an instant miracle and make a bunch of money appear in the chair, in direct response to my prayer? The impression I've had all these years is that He knew well in advance and it was a slow accumulation of coins in the chair. Either way, I was thankful and still am. Lord willing, when I get to heaven, this will be one of the of questions I have.

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    Thats was a pretty cool story Multi and a pretty interesting discussion you have going with Heavy. I’d be lying if I said I understand all of it but what little bit I can is definitely interesting. I mean that in a good way. I can’t say I believe in all of it but it’s still good for me to see how others look at the world and see why the believe the way they do. Thanks for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    Time is always an interesting topic for me. I'll share a little story back from my early days of poverty and hard work.

    My buddy and I both worked 3+ jobs to make ends meet. Two of the jobs we shared: moving furniture by day and odd jobs on evenings and weekends. One day had been particularly hard and we'd busted our asses. It was miserably hot and we'd finally got a delivery that was about an hour away, so we'd have a nice drive time break. Neither one of us had grabbed anything to drink prior to leaving. No a/c in the truck. We were both broke, so stopping and grabbing something was out of the question. So I began to pray. Pray for a small tip when we delivered the furniture, anything. Just something to buy a drink with. Tips were pretty rare, but I knew we were expected to haul off some old furniture, so I was hopeful.

    We get there and the furniture to haul off was obviously old. The recliner was probably pushing 20yrs. My buddy and I grabbed it and lifted. Immediately coins began falling out. And I don't mean like a few, it added to a pile that was a few inches thick already under this chair. An insane number of coins and unlike anything we'd ever seen. The family joked and said to give the chair a good shake and see what else would fall out. So we did. Knowing that with each shake, it meant less change for us to buy something to drink. We finally carried the chair out, with coins falling with almost every step to the truck. We finished the job and ended up hauling off the chair and some old bedroom furniture (no mattresses stuffed with cash though). They did tip us a few bucks, enough to buy drinks. But the chair was still waiting.

    My buddy and I drive down the road a ways and stopped to investigate the chair. Now that we could actually look at how it was made, we could see how all these coins had collected inside the upholstery on the sides. The chair was beyond saving for any purpose, so I took my knife and cut the fabric along the bottom of the chair. Coins poured out. Easily another $10-15 in change. We stopped at the nearest gas station and bought drinks and something to eat. And I gave thanks. Definitely the most thankful I've ever been for gas station food and drinks.

    So God definitely hears our thoughts and our unspoken prayers. As this story relates to our current discussion, did God know in the past that we would be there that day to get that chair and we would need money to buy drinks and food? Did He cause the person to slowly lose change out of his pockets over those 20 years? Or did He perform an instant miracle and make a bunch of money appear in the chair, in direct response to my prayer? The impression I've had all these years is that He knew well in advance and it was a slow accumulation of coins in the chair. Either way, I was thankful and still am. Lord willing, when I get to heaven, this will be one of the of questions I have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AR-15 View Post
    Thats was a pretty cool story Multi and a pretty interesting discussion you have going with Heavy. I’d be lying if I said I understand all of it but what little bit I can is definitely interesting. I mean that in a good way. I can’t say I believe in all of it but it’s still good for me to see how others look at the world and see why the believe the way they do. Thanks for that.
    Thanks. One of the biggest issues I have with organized religion is people spend too much time trying to enforce their personal doctrines, point out where others are wrong, etc. If anyone wants to be a witness for Christ, the best thing they can do is let others know how He has worked in their lives. The next step is to put that faith into action. This is where I believe the Holy Spirit comes in to play. Let God use you for His purpose. And that purpose may be something different every day.

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    Quick unrelated question. What does it mean when people say that your taking the lords name in vein.(sp?) My parents use to tell me never to say shit like “God damn” and “Oh god” because I would be taking the lords name in vein. Reason I’m asking is because I see guys using God in a ton of board names. GearGod and MuscleGod and today I saw GymGod posting that he was a Christian. Isn’t using the word God for whatever when it doesn’t have anything to do with religion against the rules? I hope not because I never listened to my parents about my language. I don’t want to go straight to hell when it over for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AR-15 View Post
    Quick unrelated question. What does it mean when people say that your taking the lords name in vein.(sp?) My parents use to tell me never to say shit like “God damn” and “Oh god” because I would be taking the lords name in vein. Reason I’m asking is because I see guys using God in a ton of board names. GearGod and MuscleGod and today I saw GymGod posting that he was a Christian. Isn’t using the word God for whatever when it doesn’t have anything to do with religion against the rules? I hope not because I never listened to my parents about my language. I don’t want to go straight to hell when it over for me.
    There's a few schools of thought on this. The most common/popular is exactly what you just described first. Saying G** D*mn or OMG, etc. Starched christians will take it a step further with words like gosh, golly, or gee whiz. Literally. They see it as an end around to subvert God's name.

    This extends in to the second school of thought that you are reducing God's name to being worthless or debasing God's name by using it for personal gain. Whether to glorify yourself (GearGod) or like a politician saying he is "God fearing" to get votes (and only to get votes). There is also a distinct difference between God (the deity) and "god" used to describe something else (like the roman gods, etc). Even lower case is a little cringe in and of itself, imo.

    The last thing scripture tells us is not to swear by God or take an oath by God. Saying things like "I swear to God, I'm going to...." Again, people kind of find a way around it by saying things like "so help me, God."

    I've been guilty of using G** D*mn, etc. There's very few commandments I haven't broken. Thankfully, Jesus' blood washes away these sins when we are truly repentant of what we've done.

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    A new religion is emerging and it is spreading fast. Unlike religious takeovers of the past, there is no fight taking place. In fact, the followers of many other belief systems have been quick to embrace it and incorporate it into their doctrine. It is a non-judgmental, feel-good religion of ecumenism and inclusion and acceptance of all people and all lifestyles. There is only one group of people who are rejected from this new global religion – the followers of Jesus Christ. Join Amir Tsarfati for his new teaching, The Rise of the One World Religion, as he examines this new system that will eventually unite all people under one man – the antichrist.


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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    A new religion is emerging and it is spreading fast. Unlike religious takeovers of the past, there is no fight taking place. In fact, the followers of many other belief systems have been quick to embrace it and incorporate it into their doctrine. It is a non-judgmental, feel-good religion of ecumenism and inclusion and acceptance of all people and all lifestyles. There is only one group of people who are rejected from this new global religion – the followers of Jesus Christ. Join Amir Tsarfati for his new teaching, The Rise of the One World Religion, as he examines this new system that will eventually unite all people under one man – the antichrist.

    All religions are contradictory and hypocritical in nature, so this sounds promising.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR-15 View Post
    Quick unrelated question. What does it mean when people say that your taking the lords name in vein.(sp?) My parents use to tell me never to say shit like “God damn” and “Oh god” because I would be taking the lords name in vein. Reason I’m asking is because I see guys using God in a ton of board names. GearGod and MuscleGod and today I saw GymGod posting that he was a Christian. Isn’t using the word God for whatever when it doesn’t have anything to do with religion against the rules? I hope not because I never listened to my parents about my language. I don’t want to go straight to hell when it over for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    There's a few schools of thought on this. The most common/popular is exactly what you just described first. Saying G** D*mn or OMG, etc. Starched christians will take it a step further with words like gosh, golly, or gee whiz. Literally. They see it as an end around to subvert God's name.

    This extends in to the second school of thought that you are reducing God's name to being worthless or debasing God's name by using it for personal gain. Whether to glorify yourself (GearGod) or like a politician saying he is "God fearing" to get votes (and only to get votes). There is also a distinct difference between God (the deity) and "god" used to describe something else (like the roman gods, etc). Even lower case is a little cringe in and of itself, imo.

    The last thing scripture tells us is not to swear by God or take an oath by God. Saying things like "I swear to God, I'm going to...." Again, people kind of find a way around it by saying things like "so help me, God."

    I've been guilty of using G** D*mn, etc. There's very few commandments I haven't broken. Thankfully, Jesus' blood washes away these sins when we are truly repentant of what we've done.

    Another school of thought to consider, I believe God is saying to us bride/His church... do not take His name in vain meaning don't agree to be His and not follow Him, otherwise you're taking His name in vain. Im not saying this is in lieu of what you said multi, I’m expanding on it

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    Quote Originally Posted by HFO3 View Post
    Another school of thought to consider, I believe God is saying to us bride/His church... do not take His name in vain meaning don't agree to be His and not follow Him, otherwise you're taking His name in vain. Im not saying this is in lieu of what you said multi, I’m expanding on it
    Agree. I'd lump money grubbing televangelists into this category for sure. That's the extreme. But there's plenty of professed followers who don't walk the walk. The luke warm ones that will get spewed out. People who join churches for the networking/business opportunities, etc, etc.

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