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  1. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milford King View Post
    God gives us free will..... you logically cannot have free will if the future is pre determined. Am I on the right track?
    Yep. This is a free will vs your "destiny is already written" discussion. Spoiler alert...I think both are possible.

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    My thoughts. Yes we have free will to make choices all thru life. But I believe there are several paths in our road we walk. If we make a wrong decision we may walk the long way around the mountain to get back on the determined course. Not easy to follow the straight and narrow path.. given our free will and freedom we are knuckleheads at times and make a 10 minute walk take 10 years lol. If god knows everything about us, the hairs on our head or lack there of wouldn't be safe to believe we have a planned path for our journey. Our testimony of life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by E.J.D View Post
    given our free will and freedom we are knuckleheads at times and make a 10 minute walk take 10 years lol.
    "Yay, I have free will! I'm free to run my own life!"

    "God save me from the poor decisions I've made. Please get me out of this mess. Please, please, please!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    "Yay, I have free will! I'm free to run my own life!"

    "God save me from the poor decisions I've made. Please get me out of this mess. Please, please, please!"
    Everyone has been there and done that. Failure and mistakes with pain create lasting change within ourselves if we pay attention and learn from it. Granted some of us "me included" are slow learners at times. Keep walking around that mountain when the promised land is right there in front of our face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milford King View Post
    God gives us free will..... you logically cannot have free will if the future is pre determined. Am I on the right track?
    Free will vs destiny is a real mind bender for sure. Trying to grapple with it gives you a headache.

    This is a close as solving this mystery as I've ever heard.

    " you are waking up to Gates of heaven, and you see on the gate, " whomever believes in me shall have everlasting life ".

    As you pass through the gate you look behind and see the back of gate says " you were chosen before time began ",

    So ya, it seems to be both are prerequisite at the same time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]D-Bol does a body good ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    Bringing the Open Theism discussion over here.


    I guess I have some questions up front on this topic.

    Is God all knowing?
    Is God all powerful?
    Is God everywhere all the time?

    You see where I'm going with this. Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Given what we discuss, it is probably the same/similar tact you took to initially refute Open Theism. And it's not that I'm looking to refute it exactly. I prefer to be open minded about the divine nature of God, knowing full well it is merely speculation that we cannot begin to fathom.
    For those wanting to know why this was brought up. Multi made an unbiblical assertion so I had to address it. (joking kinda) =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    If you've done everything you can, with all the knowledge you have at hand, that is all you can do. Here ends humanity and here begins the divine. Faith in an all powerful Father who is absolutely going to take care of you because He *does* know the future.

    "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
    Please state why you believe the above bolded is Biblical.

    I'll answer your questions from my perspective (The Biblical perspective) Haha

    1. God knows everything that is knowable
    2. God is all powerful but can limit how he uses his power.
    3. This is a tough one. Is God in hell right now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milford King View Post
    God gives us free will..... you logically cannot have free will if the future is pre determined. Am I on the right track?
    Exactly on track

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMA rider View Post
    Free will vs destiny is a real mind bender for sure. Trying to grapple with it gives you a headache.

    This is a close as solving this mystery as I've ever heard.

    " you are waking up to Gates of heaven, and you see on the gate, " whomever believes in me shall have everlasting life ".

    As you pass through the gate you look behind and see the back of gate says " you were chosen before time began ",

    So ya, it seems to be both are prerequisite at the same time.
    What is time though? I think its the distance between 2 events. With that definition was there ever a "before time began"?

    I do realize some faulty translations use that phrase but its just a mistranslation of the Greek word cosmos (world or universe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    For those wanting to know why this was brought up. Multi made an unbiblical assertion so I had to address it. (joking kinda) =)



    Please state why you believe the above bolded is Biblical.

    I'll answer your questions from my perspective (The Biblical perspective) Haha

    1. God knows everything that is knowable
    2. God is all powerful but can limit how he uses his power.
    3. This is a tough one. Is God in hell right now?
    Let's start small/focused on this. For convenience' sake.

    Rev 22:13
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

    God does not lie. How does God know He is the last? How does He know He was the first? How does God give *so* much prophecy that becomes fulfilled every time and with perfect accuracy? Look at other scriptures where God defines Himself. "I am." This is probably one of the simplest scriptures, but also the very deepest. So deep we cannot fathom.

    This may cause a stir but we need a good discussion after this one. Hell, as a physical lake of fire, does not exist at this point (imo). But let's say it does. Do you think there would be *anything* going on in hell that God would *not* be aware of? No way. Hell as "the grave" does exist right now. But I don't want to turn this into a "state of the dead" discussion just yet.

    With the little we know of the divine nature of God, He very likely exists (or experiences) all of time and space. Depending on your "time travel" point of view, that is either existing out of time, so He witnesses eternity like an infinite number of tv's OR He exists within eternity and experiences it all at once simultaneously. I lean towards the latter. Either way, you can have free will to write your own life story, but God has already read the book.

    One last thought on free will. God absolutely intervenes in human history. So there are limits where man's free will ends and God's will begins. Adam and Even could stay in the garden until they ate the forbidden fruit. After that, they got kicked out. Actions have consequences.

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    I agree with what multi stated. I always (when thinking or discussing the cosmos) interpreted God as indeed a time traveler with the ability to manipulate any point in time (not just within our realm but the universe entirely).

    I think His world is so complicated that our brains cannot begin to fathom how delicate everything is and we tend to dumb things down enough for us to at least try to understand a little bit of it.

    God wrote the book of life and He continues writing it but He knows and has already written the ending.

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    Feeling kind of Job-ish this morning. Humbling talk (for me anyway).


    Job 38
    2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
    By words without knowledge?
    3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
    I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

    4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
    Tell Me, if you have understanding.
    5 Who determined its measurements?
    Surely you know!
    Or who stretched the line upon it?
    6 To what were its foundations fastened?
    Or who laid its cornerstone,

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    Jeremiah 33:3 NKJV
    ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    Let's start small/focused on this. For convenience' sake.

    Rev 22:13
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

    God does not lie. How does God know He is the last? How does He know He was the first? How does God give *so* much prophecy that becomes fulfilled every time and with perfect accuracy? Look at other scriptures where God defines Himself. "I am." This is probably one of the simplest scriptures, but also the very deepest. So deep we cannot fathom.

    This may cause a stir but we need a good discussion after this one. Hell, as a physical lake of fire, does not exist at this point (imo). But let's say it does. Do you think there would be *anything* going on in hell that God would *not* be aware of? No way. Hell as "the grave" does exist right now. But I don't want to turn this into a "state of the dead" discussion just yet.

    With the little we know of the divine nature of God, He very likely exists (or experiences) all of time and space. Depending on your "time travel" point of view, that is either existing out of time, so He witnesses eternity like an infinite number of tv's OR He exists within eternity and experiences it all at once simultaneously. I lean towards the latter. Either way, you can have free will to write your own life story, but God has already read the book.

    One last thought on free will. God absolutely intervenes in human history. So there are limits where man's free will ends and God's will begins. Adam and Even could stay in the garden until they ate the forbidden fruit. After that, they got kicked out. Actions have consequences.
    None of this negates Open Theism so you may have a different understanding of it. Also much of what you are posting is philosophy which is often unbiblical. I'm not opposed to philosophy except when in conflicts with scripture.

    If God determines to do something in the future and then tells us and then makes it happen in the future that isn't Him looking into the future. Similarly if I determine to do something 2 weeks from now like go to church, sit in a certain seat, talk to certain folks that isn't me looking into the future. That is me determining to do something and then making it happen.

    Keep in mind Open Theists believe that God does thwart mans freewill at times but it seems to be related to His eternal purposes not everyday stuff.

    As far as the hell discussion I'm pretty burned out on it. My grandmother didn't believe in hell and I grew up knowing folks that didn't either. I always felt the discussion degraded into semantics. Open Theism is far more interesting and once you understand the ramifications it opens up an entirely different view of God. A personal God that relates to us in time. A dynamic God who is affected by us. A truly relational God.

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    I got company this weekend, so I'll have to wait to expand on this conversation. But....I have one question. Is God the creator of all things? (No, this isn't a "did God create evil" topic.) But did God create all things?

    Good conversation, btw. And yes, I'll throw in some philosophy as long as it doesn't conflict with scripture. Or as a talking point, but only a talking point. There's definitely a lot of topics in the bible that are left open to conjecture. But I do think God knows the future.

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    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
    Epicurus

    Also there’s is ample evidence that freewill does not exist and merely an illusion. If freewill does not exist this negates the Bible and most other religious texts, ergo negates all religions.

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