Addiction Potential of TRT?

[LilDude_41]

This isn't really a question on anything related to training, or how to get/use peds or anything like that. I'm new here, and haven't posted much yet - and I wasn't sure where to put this one, so I'm just posting it under the general discussion forum for my age group.

I detailed in another thread what got me to start looking into testosterone supplementation, and what I've done in preparation of starting a TRT protocol with or without help from my doctor. But after that post, I started going and looking at posts from other people who replied to my questions and I ran across multiple forum threads on addiction. One thread in particular from zionoir626 ( looks like a well known poster on here ) got my attention, and I think it's worth a read. "The Dark Side of PEDs..." was the thread title if anyone wants to hunt it down in the AAS Zone thread.

Anyway, I have to admit, until reading those I'd never considered the possibility that testosterone / PEDs had the potential to be addictive. Prior to registering here at ASF to ask some questions, I'd spent hours researching TRT on pubmed, youtube, various forums including this one - and most of what I saw was pretty matter of fact, saying stuff like this is healthly, you'll feel better, and I've pretty well convinced myself that it's safe and effective at the doses I am considering. I do understand that it's a long term commitment, i.e. once you start generally you're on it for life, but I've been thinking of it more like insulin for diabetics or thyroid hormones for people with hypothyroidism. Like you're supplementing something that your body is not managing correctly, not chasing some ephemeral 'high'.

Like many people, I have a history of addiction. Not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) I recovered from what I would consider a serious drug problem... I won't go into details, but the amount of product that I either insulfated or injected was considerable. I wasn't some guy who partied a little on the weekend, it was daily habit and out of control for about two years. 2015 & 2016 specifically, not that it matters. Even now there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about drugs, whether it's just a cigarette or something way harder... but I have made changes in my life and choices that have kept me clean, and I am resolute that I will never again sink to that low.

Which gets me to my question. Am I wrong to be thinking about TRT as a medical treatment? I guess what I really want to know is it 'hard' to stay on a TRT program of 200 mg of Test a week? Like, I've never wanted to look like any of the big "mass monster" guys like you see in the IFPB - so the idea of even starting down the path of taking GH, Tren, etc when all I'm trying to do is feel better seems silly now. But you know, I got into hard recreational drugs after I started smoking and drinking... and I didn't plan on that, so I can see how it's that far fetched that after starting Testosterone I'd want to take more and more potent things. The phrase "gateway drug" exists for a reason I suppose.

Anyway, I guess it just got me thinking. Rationally I'm of the opinion that since TRT doesn't provide any sort of dopamine rush ( like the popular rec drugs do ) the potential for addiction, at least in the way that I've experienced addiction, is low. Like, is there any statistic available for what percentage of guys go from TRT to running insane cycles with crazy stacks and liver failure?

 

[220]

After being on TRT for one year I began researching PEDS. After 6-8 months of research I did my first cycle.
That being said, if you have a testosterone deficiency you will feel much better and have the energy to live a healthy/active lifestyle.

I

 

[TheOldJJdigs]

I believe Z is one of the most respected members here at ASF and I too read the same thread that you did. There’s a lot of what he said that I can attest to in my personal life and my personal experience with PED’s and AAS use. Unfortunately I don’t have a ton of time this morning to really write out some of my personal experiences on the topics that you’re discussing however I can tell you that from the moment I started using anabolics I was in fact addicted… in a way. And not for any dopamine release or general “high feeling” But being on anabolic’s and having an abundance of synthetic hormones going through your body it makes me personally feel much better almost in a way of feeling like a God. I can still to this day remember my first test in DBOL cycle And how I felt. That feeling was very very addicting only because I felt healthy I felt big I felt on top of my world. And now 20 something years later if I really want to be honest with myself I do chase that first cycle.

no I’m not going to sit here and say that AAS is addicting for everyone. I can only speak about my personal experience and the things that I’ve encountered along the way. There have been some cycles that I have not personally liked or cycles that did not make me feel the way I wanted to feel and even though I was getting the gains that I wanted I stopped early probably because of how I was feeling. So anecdotally I have experienced a small form of addiction when using anabolic androgenic steroids.

The last point that I want to make and remember I don’t have a ton of time to really delve into a lot of what you brought up. Is that I am not sure that my AAS use has affected my life in a negative way at all if any. The one relationship that I lost 10 years ago was a small part of going through a PCT and the relationship was on the rocks as it was and if I look back I can honestly say that it was the best thing that ever happened. But I don’t believe me using these hormones has affected my health in any negative way as I’m in my 40s I am very healthy I am very happy and I have a very positive look on life which to me is my best attribute.

I believe the addiction part is there and I also believe what Z was saying is within some people the use of anabolic‘s will speed up or agitate mental illness. Meaning if mental illness is already a factor or present or even in the background it will most likely magnify that mental illness and strengthen it making it a larger problem than prior to PED usage.

with that being said I can also say the same exact thing with men and women that do not use PED‘s. There are other medication‘s in the pharmaceutical world where if ingested or taken for any period of time… it too can bring on mental health illness. So I don’t believe it’s just anabolic steroids or synthetic hormones that are to blame for this topic. In the pharmaceutical world there are major SSRIs and other medication‘s that I have the potential of speeding up a mental health illness in a person that’s predisposed to having mental health health issues. There are some hair treatments like Adovart that have clinical studies supporting that it affects some men in a negative manner specifically due to brain function and brain activity. So although having this discussion is a good thing we should also point out the same possibilities with lots of other chemicals or medicines that are taken on a daily basis they can also do the same thing.

Strong post brother… I believe this is a topic we should discuss more!!

JJ

 

[LilDude_41]

Great response from @TheOldJJdigs . Only been here two days but man I am continually impressed by the level of detail folks on this board are willing to put out there on posts from a newbie.

And not for any dopamine release or general “high feeling” But being on anabolic’s and having an abundance of synthetic hormones going through your body it makes me personally feel much better almost in a way of feeling like a God. I can still to this day remember my first test in DBOL cycle And how I felt. That feeling was very very addicting only because I felt healthy I felt big I felt on top of my world. And now 20 something years later if I really want to be honest with myself I do chase that first cycle.

That is where I am at I think. I went from having Total Testosterone levels in the low 100s to having Total T levels of 1,200+ after three months of just using Clomid, and I felt so much better.... like in every conceivable way, more energy, more cognitive power, more sex drive, more motivation, better workouts at the gym etc. I guess if wanting to feel 'healthy' is chasing a high, then yeah - I want another hit of that.

 

[TheOldJJdigs]

After taking a minute and reading what I just posted I think I actually missed a very important part of this discussion.

I believe men are constantly being raised and brought up to hold their feelings inside and to be strong no matter what. I believe when a woman is having problems it is perfectly acceptable for her to get help and to reach out to others but if you look at men it is almost frowned upon for us to do the same. The pressures that men face in today’s society Can be overwhelming and I believe a lot of the men that use anabolic steroids feel that it’s a way to overcome a lot of those downfalls or standards.

Self image is also a major component to this discussion. As a society through social media and other forms we are constantly being told or shown what we should look like, how we should act, and how happy we should be and I believe deep down at the root of all of this… a lot of us do not feel that strong or happy. Whether we‘re using PED’s as a form to mask that feeling or to get ahead of that feeling… we most certainly are using them in a way to make us feel better.

And if that’s not addicting I don’t know what it is…

 

[FARMATON]

The average testosterone level of healthy military aged Western males dropped by over 50% between 1950s and 2015. What is considered "normal" today is 50% LESS, than before endocrine disrupting chemicals (food, water, packaging, air pollution) and medications came on the scene.
Most men today, esp those under 50yrs old, who have never used PEDS or TRT+... have no idea what being a natural man (hormonally) even FEELS like.
Is feeling good addictive after (20-30 years of not knowing what "good" is)?

Thats like asking if having a full stomach after years of malnutrition is "addictive".

Your testosterone levels have been under attack, by design, for decades at least.

At this point in modern society, restoring natural test levels is a NECCESSARY DEFENSE!

 

[TheOldJJdigs]

The average testosterone level of healthy military aged Western males dropped by over 50% between 1950s and 2015. What is considered "normal" today is 50% LESS, than before endocrine disrupting chemicals (food, water, packaging, air pollution) and medications came on the scene.
Most men today, esp those under 50yrs old, who have never used PEDS or TRT+... have no idea what being a natural man (hormonally) even FEELS like.
Is feeling good addictive after (20-30 years of not knowing what "good" is)?

Thats like asking if having a full stomach after years of malnutrition is "addictive".

Your testosterone levels have been under attack, by design, for decades at least.

At this point in modern society, restoring natural test levels is a NECCESSARY DEFENSE!

Agreed!!! 1000000%
Water bottles in plastic, pollution, medicines we take on a daily basis… junk food and food itself!

I also think this has been on purpose and a controlling measure. It’s hard to control a bunch of Alpha Males making strong decisions and being assertive! It’s easy controlling a population of the weak, sick and tired. There’s money in sickness… not in Healthiness. What we are all doing (to a certain extent) is taking back what we’ve already lost and taking ahold of our lives.

Great Post FarmAton! It’s a great point…

 

[Bft84]

Anything can be addictive. Some people are addicted to chewing plastic.

 

[LilDude_41]

The average testosterone level of healthy military aged Western males dropped by over 50% between 1950s and 2015. What is considered "normal" today is 50% LESS, than before endocrine disrupting chemicals (food, water, packaging, air pollution) and medications came on the scene.
Most men today, esp those under 50yrs old, who have never used PEDS or TRT+... have no idea what being a natural man (hormonally) even FEELS like.
Is feeling good addictive after (20-30 years of not knowing what "good" is)?

Being new to the whole idea of monitoring my testosterone levels, and supplementation - this is something that I didn't know. I'm a trust but verify sort, and on reading your statement above I immediately went to Google to see if I could find any papers on testosterone trends in western men.

And boy, did I ever. Here's just one of the charts that I came across showing average testosterone levels by age cohort taken from three different decades. This one is from 45-80 yrs old so missing the relevant ages I am interested in, but still it's a visually compelling representation of the temporal comparison.


Found a few other places (Urology Times?) where they mentioned a 20% drop in average testosterone levels of men 15-39 yrs old just since 2000.

Interesting to know that I have the testosterone levels of a 70 year old man in the 80s.

Thats like asking if having a full stomach after years of malnutrition is "addictive".

I really like this analogy.

 

[FARMATON]

Agreed!!! 1000000%
Water bottles in plastic, pollution, medicines we take on a daily basis… junk food and food itself!

I also think this has been on purpose and a controlling measure. It’s hard to control a bunch of Alpha Males making strong decisions and being assertive! It’s easy controlling a population of the weak, sick and tired. There’s money in sickness… not in Healthiness. What we are all doing (to a certain extent) is taking back what we’ve already lost and taking ahold of our lives.

Great Post FarmAton! It’s a great point…

You're a wise man Mr.Diggs

 

[FARMATON]

Being new to the whole idea of monitoring my testosterone levels, and supplementation - this is something that I didn't know. I'm a trust but verify sort, and on reading your statement above I immediately went to Google to see if I could find any papers on testosterone trends in western men.

And boy, did I ever. Here's just one of the charts that I came across showing average testosterone levels by age cohort taken from three different decades. This one is from 45-80 yrs old so missing the relevant ages I am interested in, but still it's a visually compelling representation of the temporal comparison.

View attachment 71096
Found a few other places (Urology Times?) where they mentioned a 20% drop in average testosterone levels of men 15-39 yrs old just since 2000.

Interesting to know that I have the testosterone levels of a 70 year old man in the 80s.


I really like this analogy.

"The More You Know!"
Good on you for researching on your own. Knowledge is power America!

 

[LilDude_41]

Anything can be addictive. Some people are addicted to chewing plastic.

I had to laugh at this. Too close to home!

I have a habit of pulling the plastic ring off my water bottles / soda bottles and chewing on it. It's subconscious by this point, like I'll be driving along drinking a bottle of Dr Pepper then realize i'm chewing on the damn bottlecap ring. I'd never thought of it as an addiction, but I'll be damned if I've been able to quit despite realizing that it's a silly thing to be doing.

 

[CoachCabo]

If you need to take a heart medication or insulin for the rest of your life in order for your body to have balance, would you consider this to be addiction?

In my 30+ years around the gym and steroids I will definitely say people get addicted to them. Not be some physical Jones-ing but by mental weakness. I have seen many, if not most guys who only train and eat and live the lifestyle when they are juicing. Take away the gear and everything falls to shit. They then erroneously come to the conclusion that greatness can only come from being ‘roided to the gills.
It is few and far between the guys I have seen who stop a cycle but continue to train with intensity and keep up the nutrition and sleep, regardless of the monotony, decrease in strength and increasing soreness and slow recovery. Couple that with not looking exactly the same when they are doing a gram of tren and test and you are looking at guys who never come off. Are they addicted? To shortcuts and laziness perhaps. But it is their minds that are weak.

 

[Multislacking]

If you need to take a heart medication or insulin for the rest of your life in order for your body to have balance, would you consider this to be addiction?

I was gonna say I'm addicted to my BP meds.

OP, it's trt and you are treating a medical condition. Plain and simple. This is hell and gone from having opiates to treat a pain issue. You're overthinking it. But it's a good thing that you are aware of your demons.

 

[Androgenocide]

OP, I think everybody else has done a great job of responding to your concerns but I wanted to add something. I too had a serious drug problem (around the same time you did too) and I understand why you're concerned about replacing your addiction to street drugs with an addiction to anabolic steroids. Whether risking that is worth it to you is something only you can decide. But I would like to tell you that my newfound dedication to bodybuilding is probably the one thing that has kept me from relapsing. I can't drink or do recreational drugs, because it would hinder my progress. It's possible that I will damage my health with anabolic steroids, but I know in my heart of hearts I will never return to my old addiction. Do with this information what you will. Wish you the best. Good luck, dude.

 

[LilDude_41]

But I would like to tell you that my newfound dedication to bodybuilding is probably the one thing that has kept me from relapsing. I can't drink or do recreational drugs, because it would hinder my progress. It's possible that I will damage my health with anabolic steroids, but I know in my heart of hearts I will never return to my old addiction. Do with this information what you will. Wish you the best. Good luck, dude.

This is actually about the same conclusion that I've come to after introspection, talking with people on here, and having some candid conversations with my wife about my health and what the exactly the TRT protocol will entail. I stopped drinking and using drugs because I became a father, and I have rearranged my entire life around family with the intention of raising my daughter (and son now too) in the best environment that I am able. I haven't once wavered or regretted my choice to do so, despite losing a lot of 'friends' and becoming overall what I would have 5 years ago considered to be a 'really boring dude'. I'm happier and more fulfilled than I've ever been. I'm as certain as I am capable of being that I am not going to relapse into street drugs, and I think the likelihood of me wanting to get into the harder AAS after a 'taste' is low since I've never really been interested in getting a body building physique.

Other posters in the thread have made good points about testosterone supplementation being a necessary medicine rather than a performance enhancement, and I think that's where I've landed on this.

 

[Glycomann]

Weird world. If I hadn't been a high level athlete with a knee that needed to heal I probably wouldn't have ever used and now here I am an old man on test until I die. By the way you can go off and recover. If your HPTA had time to imprint chances are you could recover. If you are 20 and blast and cruise away then not so much. The problem is no one.. I mean no one is willing to suffer for 6 months to a eyar to fully recover. With your history of addiction I would stay away from steroids all together. If you don't I predict that within 3 years you will be blasting and cruising and probably using rec drugs again.

 

[Henchman]

This isn't really a question on anything related to training, or how to get/use peds or anything like that. I'm new here, and haven't posted much yet - and I wasn't sure where to put this one, so I'm just posting it under the general discussion forum for my age group.

I detailed in another thread what got me to start looking into testosterone supplementation, and what I've done in preparation of starting a TRT protocol with or without help from my doctor. But after that post, I started going and looking at posts from other people who replied to my questions and I ran across multiple forum threads on addiction. One thread in particular from zionoir626 ( looks like a well known poster on here ) got my attention, and I think it's worth a read. "The Dark Side of PEDs..." was the thread title if anyone wants to hunt it down in the AAS Zone thread.

Anyway, I have to admit, until reading those I'd never considered the possibility that testosterone / PEDs had the potential to be addictive. Prior to registering here at ASF to ask some questions, I'd spent hours researching TRT on pubmed, youtube, various forums including this one - and most of what I saw was pretty matter of fact, saying stuff like this is healthly, you'll feel better, and I've pretty well convinced myself that it's safe and effective at the doses I am considering. I do understand that it's a long term commitment, i.e. once you start generally you're on it for life, but I've been thinking of it more like insulin for diabetics or thyroid hormones for people with hypothyroidism. Like you're supplementing something that your body is not managing correctly, not chasing some ephemeral 'high'.

Like many people, I have a history of addiction. Not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) I recovered from what I would consider a serious drug problem... I won't go into details, but the amount of product that I either insulfated or injected was considerable. I wasn't some guy who partied a little on the weekend, it was daily habit and out of control for about two years. 2015 & 2016 specifically, not that it matters. Even now there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about drugs, whether it's just a cigarette or something way harder... but I have made changes in my life and choices that have kept me clean, and I am resolute that I will never again sink to that low.

Which gets me to my question. Am I wrong to be thinking about TRT as a medical treatment? I guess what I really want to know is it 'hard' to stay on a TRT program of 200 mg of Test a week? Like, I've never wanted to look like any of the big "mass monster" guys like you see in the IFPB - so the idea of even starting down the path of taking GH, Tren, etc when all I'm trying to do is feel better seems silly now. But you know, I got into hard recreational drugs after I started smoking and drinking... and I didn't plan on that, so I can see how it's that far fetched that after starting Testosterone I'd want to take more and more potent things. The phrase "gateway drug" exists for a reason I suppose.

Anyway, I guess it just got me thinking. Rationally I'm of the opinion that since TRT doesn't provide any sort of dopamine rush ( like the popular rec drugs do ) the potential for addiction, at least in the way that I've experienced addiction, is low. Like, is there any statistic available for what percentage of guys go from TRT to running insane cycles with crazy stacks and liver failure?

New here but thought I’d share my experience with TRT.
I grew up super active, surfing, snowboarding and desert racing dirt bikes
One I hit my 40’s I had ZERO energy or ambition to do anything at all.

About a year ago I decided to get my testosterone levels checked and just as I suspected, it was drastically low... 280 to be exact.
I contacted male excel and they started me on .15 a day and 50mg clomid since my wife and I are attempting to procreate.
After 6 weeks I felt better, instantly stronger, way less joint pain from endless injuries throughout the year. I told them I feel better but not “night and day” like I thought I would. They bumped me up to .20 daily and I began feeling great!

My semen sample came back barely fertile so the fertility doctor had me continue with the clomid but completely stop the testosterone and now my semen sample is really good.

When taken off the test, I feel like I drank from the fountain of youth only to wither away to my old lethargic self. It’s miserable.

My wife and I are doing in vetro this week and hopefully I can get back on the test ASAP!!!

To answer your question, from and adrenaline junkie with past substance abuse issues myself, is it addictive, I would say yes but not in a harmful way if used and respected as it’s meant to be utilized.

I plan to do a test/ deca cycle eventually but that is an issue/ question for a different thread.

 

[ProfShibe]

My brother was a hardcore addict for about 10 years...slamming heroin and meth

personally, I would stay away from anything if I were you. The reason I bring that up is because I would never tell him about gear simply because I think if he started using he would become addicted to it. And likely much more so than someone who wasn't an addict previously who starts blasting (not that they won't be addicted to it mentally, but that it'll be less intense)

It's strange though because it's TRT and if you're older and your levels are in the tank then it might be necessary, especially after years of rec drug abuse...but if you think there's a chance you'd start blasting because of it I would shy away since it quickly becomes not about health at that point...

 

[LilDude_41]

New here but thought I’d share my experience with TRT.
I grew up super active, surfing, snowboarding and desert racing dirt bikes
One I hit my 40’s I had ZERO energy or ambition to do anything at all.

About a year ago I decided to get my testosterone levels checked and just as I suspected, it was drastically low... 280 to be exact.
I contacted male excel and they started me on .15 a day and 50mg clomid since my wife and I are attempting to procreate.
After 6 weeks I felt better, instantly stronger, way less joint pain from endless injuries throughout the year. I told them I feel better but not “night and day” like I thought I would. They bumped me up to .20 daily and I began feeling great!

My semen sample came back barely fertile so the fertility doctor had me continue with the clomid but completely stop the testosterone and now my semen sample is really good.

When taken off the test, I feel like I drank from the fountain of youth only to wither away to my old lethargic self. It’s miserable.

My wife and I are doing in vetro this week and hopefully I can get back on the test ASAP!!!

To answer your question, from and adrenaline junkie with past substance abuse issues myself, is it addictive, I would say yes but not in a harmful way if used and respected as it’s meant to be utilized.

I plan to do a test/ deca cycle eventually but that is an issue/ question for a different thread.

This is almost exactly my story.

Hit my late 30s and suddenly I had no energy for anything, sleeping every chance I could... got tested and my Total T levels were in the low 100s. Wife and I were trying to have our second kid, so Dr prescribed clomid to improve testosterone while preserving fertility. Got up to 1000+ over three months of clomid therapy, and felt GREAT. Dr took me off clomid and now my levels are in the low 500s and though i feel 'better' than I did at 100, I feel objectively quite a bit worse than i did when my labs were 850 to 1000 + but doctor wont prescribe anything because my levels are 'normal'.

Now second kid is on the way, so fertility is no longer a concern for me - hence my looking into TRT.

I currently have no interest in stuff like Deca/Tren etc... I guess the whole reason I started the thread was to gauge what people thought about the likelihood of going from TRT at therapeutic doses to running 10 compound stacks and severely impacting ones health. Most of the responses have been positive, but there are a few that definitely give me pause. There's good arguments for and against for sure.

 

[Henchman]

This is almost exactly my story.

Hit my late 30s and suddenly I had no energy for anything, sleeping every chance I could... got tested and my Total T levels were in the low 100s. Wife and I were trying to have our second kid, so Dr prescribed clomid to improve testosterone while preserving fertility. Got up to 1000+ over three months of clomid therapy, and felt GREAT. Dr took me off clomid and now my levels are in the low 500s and though i feel 'better' than I did at 100, I feel objectively quite a bit worse than i did when my labs were 850 to 1000 + but doctor wont prescribe anything because my levels are 'normal'.

Now second kid is on the way, so fertility is no longer a concern for me - hence my looking into TRT.

I currently have no interest in stuff like Deca/Tren etc... I guess the whole reason I started the thread was to gauge what people thought about the likelihood of going from TRT at therapeutic doses to running 10 compound stacks and severely impacting ones health. Most of the responses have been positive, but there are a few that definitely give me pause. There's good arguments for and against for sure.

I have literally trashed my body, my only interest in deca would be low dose for joint pain reduction so I can begin training again. I’m hoping it can assist me in regaining some range of motion and put me back to where I can effectively workout without excruciating pain.
For now I just want to begin my trt treatment as it totally transformed my life for the short time I was on it. I’m not sure of my T levels now on just clomid but the fertility doctor took blood and told me it was at the low end of the spectrum.

 

[CoachCabo]

I bet your doctor didn’t tell you about all the eye problems with clomid.

At 58 and a test level of barely 200, the endocrinologists wanted me to take 50mg of clomid for two weeks thinking it would boost my test levels.
No thanks. Easier and safer to just pin 100-200mg of cyp a week and DEFINITELY more effective.

 

[LilDude_41]

I bet your doctor didn’t tell you about all the eye problems with clomid.

At 58 and a test level of barely 200, the endocrinologists wanted me to take 50mg of clomid for two weeks thinking it would boost my test levels.
No thanks. Easier and safer to just pin 100-200mg of cyp a week and DEFINITELY more effective.

Oh man! I haven't even mentioned that in any of my posts, but yeah one of the reasons I'm looking at TRT instead of trying to get back on Clomid is that I had a lot of intermittent blurry vision while I was on it. Like I'd be fine most of the day, but sometimes my vision would get so bad I couldn't read the screen on my phone to text. It was usually in the evenings.

And you're right, the doctor didn't mention that as a possibility and pooh-poohed me when I reported it as a symptom.

It really did help my test levels, like I said I got up to the 1200 range (based on labwork) while taking 50mg Clomid for three months - but the vision side effect was a real negative. After two weeks off my vision is back to normal as far as I can tell, but that was a VERY irritating and unpleasant side effect.

 

[GYMnTONIC]

Anabolic addiction is more relative to body image disorders. It is a psychologial addiction

Whereas things like rec drugs, alcohol and many other vices are physical and psychological.

I competed natty for 5 years. I was pretty sick feeling going into my 5th year and so we started running tests. I had a nasty Vericocele which permanently damaged one of my testicles, to the point it would not produce healthy levels ever again. I went naturally from High 900s to like 200 within a year.

I got the surgery for the vericocele, and started HRT and gained back 25lbs I had lost within months. Felt great, strong. So there was zero question I was going to try a cycle. Of course blew up off that, improved more in a few months then I had naturally in the past year so said screw it and went right on it. Ive had my HRT script for 21+ years and of course I abused AAS heavily in the first 10 years of that.

I don't regret going on HRT, in fact someone like me had no choice bc of a medical condition they said was "hereditary".

In my experience with clients over say the last 15-20 years. Out of every single one of them that has begun HRT whether legal or not. I would say, 95% of them go onto cycle or experiment with orals, etc, in addition to their "hrt".

Based on my personal experience with thousands, if I were a betting man, the odds are in favor that if you go on HRT you may eventually use AAS.

If you have that type of self control that you don't. Then kudos to you. I think age is a factor. The only few guys I have that have not abused HRT are older then 50+ and were lifetime naturals.

 

[LilDude_41]

In my experience with clients over say the last 15-20 years. Out of every single one of them that has begun HRT whether legal or not. I would say, 95% of them go onto cycle or experiment with orals, etc, in addition to their "hrt".

Man, that's a sobering statistic. =(

This might be an unfair question, but of that 95% who experimented what percent do you think went on to 'abuse' AAS in addition to their "hrt"? Abuse is in quotes because I'm trying to draw a distinction between someone trying a single cycle of deca/tren vs. habitually cycling for years.

I think it's a good point you make also that Anabolic addiction is psychological rather than physiological. I suppose there's an argument that HRT can be physiologically addictive given that you feel worse on cessation, but for the sake of discussion I suppose the argument might be that there's no physiological 'high' from suprahuman levels of testosterone.

 

[Multislacking]

Abuse is in quotes because I'm trying to draw a distinction between someone trying a single cycle of deca/tren vs. habitually cycling for years.

There is no "I did one cycle and called it quits". Most guys end up cycling once or twice per year. And by "cycling" I'm including guys who merely bump their test dosage to 500mg per week and nothing else. Even casual trt users will have times they bump their dosage to 300+ and run that for weeks. But it's because they WANT to...not because they HAVE to. Like Wes said, it's psychological...not physical. They want to be bigger, they want to fuck more, etc, etc.

 

[LilDude_41]

And by "cycling" I'm including guys who merely bump their test dosage to 500mg per week and nothing else.

This is where I guess I'm off base. I was considering cycling to be using stuff other than just test, but you're right - even just upping your dosage of test would count. I can honestly see that being the much much more tempting option, rather than trying out harder more hepatoxic compounds with extreme side effects why not just double the dosage of what you're already on and know you tolerate well.

Very good point Multislacking. Thanks for making it.

I'm brand new to this, and asking questions (like in this thread) has definitely filled in some of my blind spots. I clearly need to get over my mental distinction between testosterone and everything else, this is one of those shades of grey topics for sure.

 

[Glycomann]

There is no "I did one cycle and called it quits". Most guys end up cycling once or twice per year. And by "cycling" I'm including guys who merely bump their test dosage to 500mg per week and nothing else. Even casual trt users will have times they bump their dosage to 300+ and run that for weeks. But it's because they WANT to...not because they HAVE to. Like Wes said, it's psychological...not physical. They want to be bigger, they want to fuck more, etc, etc.

I'm on test replacement nandrolone replacement and primo replacement damn it. I need it.

 

[Henchman]

I bet your doctor didn’t tell you about all the eye problems with clomid.

At 58 and a test level of barely 200, the endocrinologists wanted me to take 50mg of clomid for two weeks thinking it would boost my test levels.
No thanks. Easier and safer to just pin 100-200mg of cyp a week and DEFINITELY more effective.

Don’t mean to hijack the thread but holy crap!
I’m 46
I been on clomid about 6 months now.
My eyesight has gone completely to shit.
I went from the weakest readers you can buy to 3.25 in a year.
I can’t even read a text message without glasses.
Thank you for the informative post.

 

[LilDude_41]

Don’t mean to hijack the thread but holy crap!
I’m 46
I been on clomid about 6 months now.
My eyesight has gone completely to shit.
I went from the weakest readers you can buy to 3.25 in a year.
I can’t even read a text message without glasses.
Thank you for the informative post.

I found out that Clomid causes vision issues after about 60 days on it. My doctor never mentioned it to me, and dismissed my concerns when I asked about it.

In extreme cases it can cause permanent vision loss or degredation.

My doctor took me off it, and I opted to look into TRT instead of getting clomid somewhere else because I think it has fewer side effects over the long term. If you want to continue taking Clomid, for fertility reasons or what have you, all of the forum posts I've read on the subject from the TRT community recommend a dose of 12.5 mg or so for long term use ( I was on 50! ).


Good post over at Peak Testosterone on Clomid

Clomid: Potential Long Term Risks to Your Vision.

From what I have seen on the Peak Testosterone Forum, the popularity of Clomid (clomiphene citrate) seems to be growing...

www.peaktestosterone.com