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New protocols needed for TPP, Tiso, TIPP

JRotten

JRotten

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We have a problem as a community. Since so many labs are dumping testE and some even dumping testC in favor of esters like ISO and various blends, we need new protocols for the new products. We kind of have something working for testP/TPA, but if anyone has good data for any of these other esters and blends we need that information and we will need labs posted. I plan on talking with Skip as he is basically the king of getting bloodwork and following his own protocols to ensure consistent baselines and has a lot of experience with the esters that other shops are moving to. If anyone else has good information please let me know.
 
SoCalJC said:
Has anybody reached out to Heavy? I bet he has some knowledge on proper protocols for these compounds.
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I'm hoping he will chime in to the discussion. I have reached out to skip since I know he has extensive baselines for tipp at least.
 
I will run a couple sets of labs for tipp one for hrt dose and one at the e or c proto just to have a base unless there a proto for it already?
 
Damgar said:
Working on one
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I will PM you my last bloodwork with TIPP. Good idea damgar to establish a database. There are no published protocols for prop, or blends, I am certain of that, so no projected numbers exist. For this to work we need to establish an inject schedule, and an exact draw time after pin. Since hcg and AIs skew the result, they should not be used. I also believe the data is more accurate and consistent with TRT doses, not 2 grams a week :).
 
Very good idea Damgar ! JD also brings up a very important point . the dose must be reasonable like an HRT dose as it seems the higher dose you use the more larger the range of numbers you get .
 
jerseydevil said:
I will PM you my last bloodwork with TIPP. Good idea damgar to establish a database. There are no published protocols for prop, or blends, I am certain of that, so no projected numbers exist. For this to work we need to establish an inject schedule, and an exact draw time after pin. Since hcg and AIs skew the result, they should not be used. I also believe the data is more accurate and consistent with TRT doses, not 2 grams a week :).
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Thanks JD. And I agree I think 300 is a nice middle of the road number or even 250. Doses that will definitely elevate t levels but in my experience but seem to have less variability. Also it's easier to run these doses without the need for ancillaries and they are typical cruise doses so it's easier for people to run protocols.
 
I've been working this out in my head and thinking of these things and here are the primary concerns I have:
ester identification: it would be easy to just underdose cyp or E if we are measuring too far out from the last pin
lack of a pharmaceutical control or a study to compare doses to. ISO, PP, TIPP just aren't used in studies that I can see
the protocol we all use is based on a study. The deviations from mean are just what was published. The groups are actually just 12 subjects. 61 people divided into 5 dosage groups.

so what we really need is mass spec, and since we all know how difficult that is we need to take steps to address the above concerns. Follow me here:

Here's my theory... All esters are going to peak in the first 24-36 hours. The faster ester will be a bigger peak so in 48 hours you are falling off peak. You measure an equal dose of each at 48 hours. You compare those numbers.


You repeat at 7 days because the faster ester should be significantly reduced. This gives a reasonable basis for deciding if the ester is what it's supposed to be.


The best you can do is assume the test is close if the two tests seem reasonable in their comparisons
pharmacy cyp is readily available to many of us since we are scripted cyp from our doctors. From here then we can establish a protocol of timing schedules, 48,72,96 hours after last pin. I have heard mention that OD has something of a recommendation here but I have not actually seen it.

The above is basically for pure esters. Several of us have been using 24hr after last pin to compare prop and tpa and although no true protocol exists, results from several vendors across the board seem to fall a little +/- a 7x multiplier.

For a blend like tipp, my best idea for a starting point is that we turn to those guys that we know are diligent about their own lab work that have been running tipp for quite awhile. The ones I've seen tend to be very consistent. Hopefully we can avoid the politics of source vs source when results come back higher or lower.

Obviously none of this is perfect, but in trying to think of all angles this is what I have come up with. Now I would like you guys to pick it apart. :winkfinger:
 
I have not forgot about this just been wrapped up in other things.

I will communicate with you via PM when I have some ideas or input for you, but I like what I am seeing so far.
 
Please keep me posted i will be posted a couple sets with tipp as well for hrt and blast..if rheres a proto to follow i will do it
 
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