AI vs. SERM please chime in

[Tall Deck]

I know this is an old topic, but are there any of you here who can honestly say that you used to use AI's during gear cycles, and you stopped using them, and began using either Nolvadex, or Evista, (Raloxifene) and as a result began making noticebly better gains from the same AAS compounds than you previously used while you were using AI's??? Many of you guys are very knowledgeable, so ofcourse I'm open to hearing opinions and theories too, since I might learn something new, but I'm especially hoping that someone with experience in the area of dropping the AI use who replaced them with SARMs will chime in here to talk about any differences they might have experienced in the way of increased gains as a result of steering clear of AI use.

And BTW, if there is anyone, then please make mention of which AI's, SARMs, and gear you were using, related to the differences you've noticed in gains. This might be a tall order to hope for such information, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

 

[TripleOvertime]

Do you mean serms with an E? As in nolva, clomid etc?

 

[Tall Deck]

Do you mean serms with an E? As in nolva, clomid etc?

Yes, my bad. thanks for the correction. Perhaps one of you mods can correct the title for me?

 

[TripleOvertime]

Yes, my bad. thanks for the correction. Perhaps one of you mods can correct the title for me?

Let me see what I can do...

 

[REHH]

Yes, my bad. thanks for the correction. Perhaps one of you mods can correct the title for me?

I fixed it. Serms do not lower estrogen, only block the receptors. AIs actually lower your estrogen. I will always use an ai first, and a serm like nolva in addition to an ai when needed. Times when I occasionally need nolvadex is when I run things that cause gyno through alternative Pathways like 19 Nors and Anadrol

 

[Tall Deck]

I fixed it. Serms do not lower estrogen, only block the receptors. AIs actually lower your estrogen. I will always use an ai first, and a serms like nolva in addition to an ai when needed. Times when I occasionally need nolvadex is when I run things that cause gyno through alternative Pathways like 19 Nors and Anadrol

Thank you for fixing that. I understand how the two work in different ways. My focus i this thread is how some guys claim that AI's are not only much worse for your health than SERMs are, but some even claim that AI's will hinder your gains form AAS much more than SERMS can. i am gyno prone but I've run high doses of Anadrol for 8 weeks straight using nothing but Aromasin intermittently, and didn't get any gyno. But I know that everyone is different, and this isn't always an exact science we deal with concerning AAS use, (especially when it comes to compounds like Anadrol).

 

[GarlicChicken]

Gonna sub to this thread so I can reply when I have more time later. I would be one of those people, but I have been kind of rethinking those things lately.

 

[Tall Deck]

Gonna sub to this thread so I can reply when I have more time later. I would be one of those people, but I have been kind of rethinking those things lately.

OK GC, I look forward to your input

 

[chocolatemalt]

I've had spiked E2 of 150-ish before and discovered that fortunately I'm not gyno-prone. But I still want my E2 < 50 on a cycle, and ideally in the 20's, due to some studies suggesting serious harm if you get out of range. Whether those studies still apply to guys when you've got super high T levels to "balance out" the estrogen, who can say, but I'm going with caution there.

Anyway, that would preclude a SERM strategy replacing AI. Doesn't really address your question specifically but hey you know that's how it goes sometimes. Time for scrambled eggs, bacon, toast, and Entourage binge. Alright.

 

[Montego]

If you aromitase heavily, best to use an ai.

If you don't, or, you can't dial in an ai without crushing your estrogen, SERMs.

There really isn't any real magic to only using SERMs, it just doesn't give you the opportunity to crush your estrogen which can definitely limit growth.

One thing with nolvadex though, it is shown to have a negative impact on igf which isn't great but, neither is eliminating aromitase which will also negatively effect igf.

 

[Montego]

If you aromitase heavily, best to use an ai.

If you don't, or, you can't dial in an ai without crushing your estrogen, SERMs.

There really isn't any real magic to only using SERMs, it just doesn't give you the opportunity to crush your estrogen which can definitely limit growth.

One thing with nolvadex though, it is shown to have a negative impact on igf which isn't great but, neither is eliminating aromitase which will also negatively effect igf.

Also, one upside of a serm would be eliminating any negative effect some AI's have on cholesterol.

 

[Tall Deck]

I've had spiked E2 of 150-ish before and discovered that fortunately I'm not gyno-prone. But I still want my E2 < 50 on a cycle, and ideally in the 20's, due to some studies suggesting serious harm if you get out of range. Whether those studies still apply to guys when you've got super high T levels to "balance out" the estrogen, who can say, but I'm going with caution there.

Anyway, that would preclude a SERM strategy replacing AI. Doesn't really address your question specifically but hey you know that's how it goes sometimes. Time for scrambled eggs, bacon, toast, and Entourage binge. Alright.

Looks like all good info to me there Choco. Thank you

If you aromitase heavily, best to use an ai.

If you don't, or, you can't dial in an ai without crushing your estrogen, SERMs.

There really isn't any real magic to only using SERMs, it just doesn't give you the opportunity to crush your estrogen which can definitely limit growth.

One thing with nolvadex though, it is shown to have a negative impact on igf which isn't great but, neither is eliminating aromitase which will also negatively effect igf.

Thanks Monte. I was overlooking the IGF factor. I'm not postive about this, but I'm thinking that Evista, (Raloxifene) does NOT share the negative impact on IGF with Nolvadex.

Also, one upside of a serm would be eliminating any negative effect some AI's have on cholesterol.

I believe that Aromasin is easier on the cholestrol thing than most other AI's are.

 

[303055622lr]

I'm interested in using masteron to mitigate having to use as much a.i.

Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

 

[Montego]

Looks like all good info to me there Choco. Thank you

Thanks Monte. I was overlooking the IGF factor. I'm not postive about this, but I'm thinking that Evista, (Raloxifene) does NOT share the negative impact on IGF with Nolvadex.
I believe that Aromasin is easier on the cholestrol thing than most other AI's are.

Aromasin is but, it's not nearly as available, or as known to most outside of the forum even, as adex is in general.

 

[Jswole220]

I fixed it. Serms do not lower estrogen, only block the receptors. AIs actually lower your estrogen. I will always use an ai first, and a serm like nolva in addition to an ai when needed. Times when I occasionally need nolvadex is when I run things that cause gyno through alternative Pathways like 19 Nors and Anadrol

This is good info right here. A lot of guys have no clue that Anadrol can cause gyno or elevated prolactin

 

[Jswole220]

If you aromitase heavily, best to use an ai.

If you don't, or, you can't dial in an ai without crushing your estrogen, SERMs.

There really isn't any real magic to only using SERMs, it just doesn't give you the opportunity to crush your estrogen which can definitely limit growth.

One thing with nolvadex though, it is shown to have a negative impact on igf which isn't great but, neither is eliminating aromitase which will also negatively effect igf.

Wouldn’t the igf increase from some aas balance out the tamoxifen lowering it? For example if I’m running tren which is known to raise igf along with let’s say npp d bol and obviously testosterone and taking 10mg of tamoxifen daily don’t you think that would at least balance it out if not the tren overpower the nolvadex and still give some slight igf elevation?

 

[Montego]

Wouldn’t the igf increase from some aas balance out the tamoxifen lowering it? For example if I’m running tren which is known to raise igf along with let’s say npp d bol and obviously testosterone and taking 10mg of tamoxifen daily don’t you think that would at least balance it out if not the tren overpower the nolvadex and still give some slight igf elevation?

There's no way to say really.

Nolva has been shown to decrease igf by 40%. I have no clue how much Anabolics like ten average out at.

Also, it doesn't seem to just decrease the ability to convert gh to igf. From everything I've seen, it just decreases the igf level no matter how it's achieved, gh or naturally.

So, if that's the case no, it wouldn't matter.

In my opinion at least. I could be completely wrong lol

 

[Jswole220]

There's no way to say really.

Nolva has been shown to decrease igf by 40%. I have no clue how much Anabolics like ten average out at.

Also, it doesn't seem to just decrease the ability to convert gh to igf. From everything I've seen, it just decreases the igf level no matter how it's achieved, gh or naturally.

So, if that's the case no, it wouldn't matter.

In my opinion at least. I could be completely wrong lol

I was really just curious what your opinion was on it. It would be amazing if we had actual medical studies on stuff like this lol this game would be a hell of a lot better than it is lol. I don’t disagree with you I think you may be correct but I also still kinda think that there may be some offset. I believe the 40% studies your referring to used a higher dose like 20mg daily but I could be wrong. I’ve also thought about trying this using 10mg eod instead of daily. I wouldn’t recommend anyone just go try this unless you really know your body and you don’t convert much in the first place. I appreciate your input.

 

[DUTCHPHARMA]

I was really just curious what your opinion was on it. It would be amazing if we had actual medical studies on stuff like this lol this game would be a hell of a lot better than it is lol. I don’t disagree with you I think you may be correct but I also still kinda think that there may be some offset. I believe the 40% studies your referring to used a higher dose like 20mg daily but I could be wrong. I’ve also thought about trying this using 10mg eod instead of daily. I wouldn’t recommend anyone just go try this unless you really know your body and you don’t convert much in the first place. I appreciate your input.

Agree about the studies. I believe in a world where one day AAS is readily accepted by not only the medical field, but the general public as well. Get rid of this negative stigma. Yet still alcohol and cigarettes are "okay". Got to love the bs and misunderstanding surrounding these compounds.

 

[Montego]

I was really just curious what your opinion was on it. It would be amazing if we had actual medical studies on stuff like this lol this game would be a hell of a lot better than it is lol. I don’t disagree with you I think you may be correct but I also still kinda think that there may be some offset. I believe the 40% studies your referring to used a higher dose like 20mg daily but I could be wrong. I’ve also thought about trying this using 10mg eod instead of daily. I wouldn’t recommend anyone just go try this unless you really know your body and you don’t convert much in the first place. I appreciate your input.

Yeah those studies did use higher doses but, even still, there will be some impact I would guess.

I just don't see the benefit in only using a serm unless you have cholesterol issues though.

So, if you don't aromitase badly, use minimal ai such as Aromasin.....

Then you don't need to worry about anything we talked about lol. I don't see the upside in using a serm when small doses of Aromasin would be more effective imo.