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Teen cycle scenario help

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chocolatemalt said:
That's awful for your age. I'm 44 and have ~500 ng/dL, along with classic symptoms of low T: low libido, lethargy, low muscle mass, depression, irritability, etc. Sounds like you have the same. There's also invisible damage that we may be suffering, such as harm to the cardiovascular system, risk of diabetes, maybe even risk of Alzheimer's.

You'll get a lot of hardcore warnings here about starting before the "magic" age of 24 or 25 but you should also consider the risks of doing nothing. I.e. all the risk factors listed above.

Something to look into is using Clomid and/or Anastrozole/Exemestane therapy to kick your HPTA into high gear and possibly double your test. Might work, might not, but worth a try. This avoids having to pin anything, dealing with shutdown, HCG, fertility concerns, etc. It's not the same as a mega-testosterone cycle with dbol/tren thrown in but it might solve your problems and be covered by health insurance to boot.
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okay so lets say i stop using the andro gel, only been on it for a short amount of time so shouldn't be bad, what would you suggest as far a dosages go for the AI and which AI? I definitely feel the symptoms of low t specifically NO sex drive, irritability, and low energy even though i get 8 hours or more of sleep every night. and i agree that clearly my low t numbers are on the extremely low end of the "normal" range. my total t is smack dab in the middle and im sure that if my low t number was somewhere in the 18-20 range id feel great. I am not against stopping the adrogel at all but I would like to attempt to fix my situation some how safely.
 
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heavyiron said:
A simple AI would boost his T easily into the high range I imagine.
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so maybe like a four week cycle of an AI?
do you think that would raise my free test for good or would it start to drop back down again after a short period of time..
 
here is another option tell me what you guys think. I don't see my doctor for another 4 months. say i lay off the andro gel and decide to run a 5 week cycle of super dmz 2.0 with proper pct and pre load. after post cycle is it possible that my levels could be higher than they were before? or would this just be doing more damage...
 
smith791 said:
okay so lets say i stop using the andro gel, only been on it for a short amount of time so shouldn't be bad, what would you suggest as far a dosages go for the AI and which AI? I definitely feel the symptoms of low t specifically NO sex drive, irritability, and low energy even though i get 8 hours or more of sleep every night. and i agree that clearly my low t numbers are on the extremely low end of the "normal" range. my total t is smack dab in the middle and im sure that if my low t number was somewhere in the 18-20 range id feel great. I am not against stopping the adrogel at all but I would like to attempt to fix my situation some how safely.
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I'm going to be experimenting with this for the first time after my current cycle and PCT, probably July. The doses will be low: 25 mg/day Clomid and 12.5 mg/day Aromasin. I'll probably go with one for a month, the other for the next month, then double em up after that... with lots of blood tests to see how it's affecting me and maybe some dosage adjustments in response.

This is a relatively new idea for TRT but there have been studies:

http://jeffreydach.com/2012/06/18/clomid-for-men-with-low-testosterone-by-jeffrey-dach-md.aspx
http://urologytimes.modernmedicine....clomiphene-may-offer-alternative-treating-low
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/3/1174.long

The first article is just a case study but has some nice explanations and a chart showing something uncommon in the AAS literature -- the negative feedback mechanisms on the hypothalamus and pituitary are triggered by estrogen, not testosterone directly. It's aromatized in situ in order to be measured. This is important to understanding how an AI or a SERM will directly screw with that negative feedback, to our benefit. Also you'll notice that the doc settled on the double-up method with both an AI and SERM.

I haven't tried the androgel route but from everyone's comments in these forums it sounds like it's a goopy pain in the ass, you have to be careful about physical contact with women and children, and it will shut down your HPTA just like injections, causing testicular atrophy (shrinkage, aching, ascension, and possible fertility issues down the road). Better than nothing but there may be better options.

Given the literature on the AI/SERM TRT options, you should be able to get a doc to help once you've pointed out the studies. Tell him you've done your time at the 10th percentile and you've had enough of that shit, now it's time for 90th percentile (~900 ng/dL). :D If you get no love, find another doc. It's your health and your life.
 
I'm not sure what you are looking for ? You could crash it on purpose to get a script. You could be concerned why its a bit low. Or, say fuck it and run a proper cycle. My best advise is to be as responsible as you can by doing bloods, and working with your Doc. Good luck, be smart.
 
Choc have u seen labs from any natty guy w test levels at 900..: I've looked and I can't find any
 
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Vicious 13 said:
Choc have u seen labs from any natty guy w test levels at 900..: I've looked and I can't find any
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Nope, I'm just using the data from that French TELECOM study that I posted. Roughly 10% of adult males < age 40 will have levels 900 or higher, which is a pretty large number of guys overall. I'm fudging that a bit since the charts don't show 90th percentile, only 95th, but it should be about right.
 
I'm just curious at 22 I was below 600.. I've never seen a natty guy above 800 yet everyone always says below 900 is pathetic... Just curious where the studies are getting these numbers from. I'd think someone here out of the thousands of members would face numbers that high if it really were the norm... Not trying to argue w u this is all just me being curious
 
Well, keep in mind that we are about 30 years removed from that TELECOM study done in the 80's, and testosterone levels have fallen at least 15-20% in that time... that is probably a conservative estimate. So a guy in that 80's study who had a 900 level would likely have only .8*900 = 720, if he were the same age today and suffered the modern chemical industry's estrogenic assault. That's a pretty big difference. It might explain the relative rarity of >900 guys now.

I'd really like to see a fresh study as comprehensive as the TELECOM one.
 
That actually makes perfect sense because that's much closer to the number I generally see... If that really is the case though its sad I can't believe someone doesn't see a problem w it... Or maybe that's y we are seeing more and more trt commercials today
 
I would take clomid to get my natty test up. Fuck the gel, all its gonna do is shut down your production of test, making you rely on it...
Cycle if you want to, you already have your mind made up. At least you're on here educating yourself to make an informed decision. Treatment with clomid seems like a better choice than cruising on gel your whole life...
 
Vicious 13 said:
Or maybe that's y we are seeing more and more trt commercials today
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Medical Industry in the U.S. makes a huge part of the economy. This is how they have control over the population and money. Fuck up food and put chemicals in it, make people sick, send them to the doctor and they just doubled the profit made! The returns are astronomical! Mark ups on medicine are crazy too. TRT wasn't an issue in the 80's but now its a way to increase profits for the medical industry and that's why we are seeing more and more HRT clinics coming up. Governments are fucked up....
 
jem92 said:
Medical Industry in the U.S. makes a huge part of the economy. This is how they have control over the population and money. Fuck up food and put chemicals in it, make people sick, send them to the doctor and they just doubled the profit made! The returns are astronomical! Mark ups on medicine are crazy too. TRT wasn't an issue in the 80's but now its a way to increase profits for the medical industry and that's why we are seeing more and more HRT clinics coming up. Governments are fucked up....
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Very true. We have a gov't of formalized corruption where nearly everything is essentially controlled by business interests, including elections. To be fair, there is a demand side of this equation. In those rare cases where consumer opinion changes rapidly the market for a crap substance can dry up overnight as it did for trans fats and pink slime. Unfortunately the consumers are only semi-quasi-pseudo-educated so this doesn't happen often enough.
 
chocolatemalt said:
Very true. We have a gov't of formalized corruption where nearly everything is essentially controlled by business interests, including elections. To be fair, there is a demand side of this equation. In those rare cases where consumer opinion changes rapidly the market for a crap substance can dry up overnight as it did for trans fats and pink slime. Unfortunately the consumers are only semi-quasi-pseudo-educated so this doesn't happen often enough.
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Preach on, brother the more we educate each other on all these types of things, the sooner we can bring about change... Fucking fluoride in all our water, for example.
 
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