How much Protein is....Too much?

[hannamuscles]

Damn just got through all of the articles and such, really useful info that i will definitely be taking into account. As for now im going to stick with my coach for the remaining few weeks into my show, then during the off season ill adjust my macros based off of the info above for sure

 

[Lokthan]

Damn just got through all of the articles and such, really useful info that i will definitely be taking into account. As for now im going to stick with my coach for the remaining few weeks into my show, then during the off season ill adjust my macros based off of the info above for sure

Yeah ton of info to look through. Even on the high end all of those studies put me at 180g max

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[malfeasance]

Lokthan,
I do not have time to read them right now, but did they involve subjects who were:

(1) seriously experienced bodybuilders who already had some muscle size;
and
(2) on copious amounts of gear?

Both of those questions may determine whether even one of your studies has any relevancy for anybody reading here.

Most of the studies I see are on untrained subjects. I never see ANY studies on a guy doing 1000mg of test and 800 Deca and HIS protein needs.

You have to seriously consider whether those studies are relevant to you even if they are accurate for the population being studied. My experience is the same a bc123jm posted - I drop much below about 250 grams and I lose size.

And, yeah, I am laughing my ass off at you believing Cutler's diet . . . Did you believe Dorian Yates about his steroid usage (doses) and hgh and insulin? After all, he has said it during more than one interview . . .

 

[Lokthan]

Lokthan,
I do not have time to read them right now, but did they involve subjects who were:

(1) seriously experienced bodybuilders who already had some muscle size;
and
(2) on copious amounts of gear?

Both of those questions may determine whether even one of your studies has any relevancy for anybody reading here.

Most of the studies I see are on untrained subjects. I never see ANY studies on a guy doing 1000mg of test and 800 Deca and HIS protein needs.

You have to seriously consider whether those studies are relevant to you even if they are accurate for the population being studied. My experience is the same a bc123jm posted - I drop much below about 250 grams and I lose size.

And, yeah, I am laughing my ass off at you believing Cutler's diet . . . Did you believe Dorian Yates about his steroid usage (doses) and hgh and insulin? After all, he has said it during more than one interview . . .

Laugh all you want but if it can be backed by scientific studies then I'll believe it unlike majority of the broscience here, which is why ive been reading through almost every study trying to find a one done on aas users in the same environment. Because from what ive read so far is that it is feasible given carbs are increased dramatically.

Many of the studies listed were conducted on experienced power athletes, endurance athletes, and bodybuilders alike actually. Took roughly 5 whole minutes even browsing study titles to figure that out

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[malfeasance]

\So ever since i really got into lifting and dieting my family has been really pressuring me about the way i am eating vs. kidney disease. They say im going to kill myself by the time im 30 due to kidney failure.

That's because your family is a bunch of idiots.



The truth is that there is NO upper dietary limit for protein in healthy individuals with respect to kidney function. Any dietary limits that have been suggested are NOT based on science, but speculation.

There is ignorance masquerading as the truth on the internet far too frequently.

The real cause of kidney disease for most people is high blood pressure, and this is what gets bodybuilders in particular, because steroids drive up blood pressure. Unfortunately, bodybuilders on forums like this often do not even check their blood pressure. They are worried about nonexistent things like too much protein for the kidneys.

As for protein, do not read "articles." Read actual scientific research studies. This one would be a good start. A short quote follows, and a link to the entire study for you to read is below the quote. Have fun studying!




Concerns about level of dietary protein and renal function are often presented in public health guidelines [59]. In addition to the claims that high protein intake causes renal disease, some studies have suggested that renal function may be negatively affected by routine consumption of high protein diets [72-75]. Although high protein diets cause changes in renal function (i.e., increased GFR) and several related endocrine factors [1,76,77] that may be harmful to individuals with renal disease [52,53], there is not sufficient research to extend these findings to healthy individuals with normal renal function at this time.
The lay public is often told that high protein diets "overwork" the kidney and may negatively impact renal function over time [78]. In addition, a number of highly regarded organizations appear to support this line of reasoning [79] given the physiological processes required for excretion of protein-related metabolic waste products to maintain homeostasis following consumption of protein at levels in excess of recommended amounts. Increased consumption of dietary protein is linearly related to the production of urea [80] and urea excretion is controlled by the kidney. These processes are of significant energetic cost to the kidney and represent the physiological "strain" associated with increased protein intake [81].
The word "strain" is misleading given its negative connotation. In a press release [82], one group asserted that increased dietary protein "strains" the kidney via increased urea production, and causes dehydration and accumulation of blood urea nitrogen. This press release also suggested that these events synergistically overwork the kidney and predispose humans to CKD. Scientific research is often misrepresented in this context. Research from our laboratory [83] which is cited in the press release, does not support these contentions. Rather, we found that habitual consumption of a high protein diet minimally affected hydration indices. Changes in total body water and renal function were not measured.
The concept that increased dietary protein leads to dehydration may have originated from an unsubstantiated extension of a 1954 review of the nitrogen balance literature [84]. This review focused on the design of survival rations for military operations in the desert or at sea, when water supply and energy intake are limited. Since the excretion of 1 gram of urea nitrogen requires 40 – 60 mL of additional water, increased protein intakes in the study translated into an increased water requirement (i.e., +250 mL water per 6 grams of dietary nitrogen in a 500 Kcal diet) for excretion of urea nitrogen. This increased fluid requirement is situation specific and is not necessarily applicable to individuals whose calorie and water intakes are adequate. Presently, we know of no studies executed in healthy individuals with normal renal function which demonstrate a clear relation between increased dietary protein intake and dehydration or a detrimental "strain" on the kidney. Therefore, claims that a high protein diet promotes dehydration or adversely "strains" the kidney remain speculative.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/

 

[malfeasance]

Laugh all you want but if it can be backed by scientific studies then I'll believe it unlike majority of the broscience here

You have been around long enough to know that I NEVER post "bioscience" on this forum. There was no reason for you to write that in response to my question to you.

The only laughing I did was at you believing the bullshit yarn Cutler was spinning, not at your "studies," which I have not read, as I stated in the post.

My question (actually 2 questions) were serious, and they go directly to the heart of why you posted them. You made a half-hearted effort to answer one of the questions, but not really, and completely dodged the second one. Come back and answer when your answer will not be 5 minutes of perusing titles and a nonresponse. No need to post off of a feeling of being offended rather than exchanging information.

 

[Lokthan]

That's because your family is a bunch of idiots.



The truth is that there is NO upper dietary limit for protein in healthy individuals with respect to kidney function. Any dietary limits that have been suggested are NOT based on science, but speculation.

There is ignorance masquerading as the truth on the internet far too frequently.

The real cause of kidney disease for most people is high blood pressure, and this is what gets bodybuilders in particular, because steroids drive up blood pressure. Unfortunately, bodybuilders on forums like this often do not even check their blood pressure. They are worried about nonexistent things like too much protein for the kidneys.

As for protein, do not read "articles." Read actual scientific research studies. This one would be a good start. A short quote follows, and a link to the entire study for you to read is below the quote. Have fun studying!




Concerns about level of dietary protein and renal function are often presented in public health guidelines [59]. In addition to the claims that high protein intake causes renal disease, some studies have suggested that renal function may be negatively affected by routine consumption of high protein diets [72-75]. Although high protein diets cause changes in renal function (i.e., increased GFR) and several related endocrine factors [1,76,77] that may be harmful to individuals with renal disease [52,53], there is not sufficient research to extend these findings to healthy individuals with normal renal function at this time.
The lay public is often told that high protein diets "overwork" the kidney and may negatively impact renal function over time [78]. In addition, a number of highly regarded organizations appear to support this line of reasoning [79] given the physiological processes required for excretion of protein-related metabolic waste products to maintain homeostasis following consumption of protein at levels in excess of recommended amounts. Increased consumption of dietary protein is linearly related to the production of urea [80] and urea excretion is controlled by the kidney. These processes are of significant energetic cost to the kidney and represent the physiological "strain" associated with increased protein intake [81].
The word "strain" is misleading given its negative connotation. In a press release [82], one group asserted that increased dietary protein "strains" the kidney via increased urea production, and causes dehydration and accumulation of blood urea nitrogen. This press release also suggested that these events synergistically overwork the kidney and predispose humans to CKD. Scientific research is often misrepresented in this context. Research from our laboratory [83] which is cited in the press release, does not support these contentions. Rather, we found that habitual consumption of a high protein diet minimally affected hydration indices. Changes in total body water and renal function were not measured.
The concept that increased dietary protein leads to dehydration may have originated from an unsubstantiated extension of a 1954 review of the nitrogen balance literature [84]. This review focused on the design of survival rations for military operations in the desert or at sea, when water supply and energy intake are limited. Since the excretion of 1 gram of urea nitrogen requires 40 – 60 mL of additional water, increased protein intakes in the study translated into an increased water requirement (i.e., +250 mL water per 6 grams of dietary nitrogen in a 500 Kcal diet) for excretion of urea nitrogen. This increased fluid requirement is situation specific and is not necessarily applicable to individuals whose calorie and water intakes are adequate. Presently, we know of no studies executed in healthy individuals with normal renal function which demonstrate a clear relation between increased dietary protein intake and dehydration or a detrimental "strain" on the kidney. Therefore, claims that a high protein diet promotes dehydration or adversely "strains" the kidney remain speculative.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/

Malfs right, if you go to the list of studies theres a section on kidney and orgsn health.

A study done with 4.4g/kg showed no negative affects on kidney health vs the recommended .8g/kg.

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[malfeasance]

In case anybody reading above did not read even the shot quote from the scientists who are writing saying, "Hey! The crap you are reading on the internet cites our research, but it is being misrepresented! That is NOT what we found!"

Then here is an even shorter quote that goes right to the heart of the question in the OP:

Presently, we know of no studies executed in healthy individuals with normal renal function which demonstrate a clear relation between increased dietary protein intake and dehydration or a detrimental "strain" on the kidney.

 

[Lokthan]

You have been around long enough to know that I NEVER post "bioscience" on this forum. There was no reason for you to write that in response to my question to you.

The only laughing I did was at you believing the bullshit yarn Cutler was spinning, not at your "studies," which I have not read, as I stated in the post.

My question (actually 2 questions) were serious, and they go directly to the heart of why you posted them. You made a half-hearted effort to answer one of the questions, but not really, and completely dodged the second one. Come back and answer when your answer will not be 5 minutes of perusing titles and a nonresponse. No need to post off of a feeling of being offended rather than exchanging information.

You're so salty man. Firstly, never said you post broscience, i said majority of conversations here regarding well literally anything were based off "my experience" and what they've been told.

To answer your 2 questions yet again.

1. There were multiple studies done on trained power/strength athletes and endurance athletes. And since we are talking about building muscle it is applicable to the conversation.

2. I said very blatantly i am trying to find studies done on aas users and optimal protein intake.

Im not sitting here telling everyone that they are wrong, just offering a different viewpoint.

Relax killer

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[malfeasance]

As for protein requirements, I have seen several studies similar to ones being posted above, stating low requirements for protein and bodily function and even some muscle growth. I always think that one has to view the studies with a view toward relevance, however.

On gear? More protein utilization.

Experience training, high volume, for years? More protein utilization.

Are you injecting insulin pre workout? Yep, more protein utilization.

I have also seen studies recently, and I will see if I can dig them up, showing that individuals cutting benefit from ridiculously high levels of protein. I do not recall the amount right now, so I will not post it with a guess, but I remember being shocked. They had groups at a "normal" level, a high level, and a higher level (ridiculously high), and each group, respectively had better results in losing fat and body composition based on how high the protein intake was.

Considering how often bodybuilders "cut," I think these studies have some relevance for the readers of this forum, so I will try to dig them up again at some point.

 

[Lokthan]

As for protein requirements, I have seen several studies similar to ones being posted above, stating low requirements for protein and bodily function and even some muscle growth. I always think that one has to view the studies with a view toward relevance, however.

On gear? More protein utilization.

Experience training, high volume, for years? More protein utilization.

Are you injecting insulin pre workout? Yep, more protein utilization.

I have also seen studies recently, and I will see if I can dig them up, showing that individuals cutting benefit from ridiculously high levels of protein. I do not recall the amount right now, so I will not post it with a guess, but I remember being shocked. They had groups at a "normal" level, a high level, and a higher level (ridiculously high), and each group, respectively had better results in losing fat and body composition based on how high the protein intake was.

Considering how often bodybuilders "cut," I think these studies have some relevance for the readers of this forum, so I will try to dig them up again at some point.

Theres a few studies that all concluded the same thing that a much higher protein intake in a deficit was absolutely needed and beneficial, upwards of 2g/lb bw.. Thats a grip

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[malfeasance]

Ah ha! Found one already!

I apologize for not having the internet cite, as I did not find this one online when I noted it.

A high protein diet (3.4 grams per kilogram of bodyweight per day) plus a periodized weight training program for 8 weeks caused greater decreases in bodyweight, percent fat and fat mass than a diet containing 2.3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight - according to a study by Jose Antonio from Nova Southeastern University in Florida, and colleagues. There were no differences in fat-free mass (largely composed of muscle). The researchers concluded that intensely training athletes would benefit from protein intakes greater than two grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day. However, previous studies showed that overfeeding protein without weight training did not alter body composition. (Journal International Society Sports Nutrition 13:3, 2016)

 

[Lokthan]

Yeah my main concern is just my kidneys. I dont want to fuck them up, but also i usually dont eat at this high of a protein count. So i figured if im just doing it for the time remaining for my competition i should be good, during the off season i lower it to a reasonable amount

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2016/9104792/

Heres a year long study done with no negative change in lipid values on 2 different protein diets, tagging on what malf.said

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[Lokthan]

Ah ha! Found one already!

I apologize for not having the internet cite, as I did not find this one online when I noted it.

A high protein diet (3.4 grams per kilogram of bodyweight per day) plus a periodized weight training program for 8 weeks caused greater decreases in bodyweight, percent fat and fat mass than a diet containing 2.3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight - according to a study by Jose Antonio from Nova Southeastern University in Florida, and colleagues. There were no differences in fat-free mass (largely composed of muscle). The researchers concluded that intensely training athletes would benefit from protein intakes greater than two grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day. However, previous studies showed that overfeeding protein without weight training did not alter body composition. (Journal International Society Sports Nutrition 13:3, 2016)

Was that in a deficit ?

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[malfeasance]

So if you weigh 220, that is 340 grams or the best results. 230 grams was not as good for "greater decreases in bodyweight, percent fat, and fat mass" as 340 grams of protein.

THAT is something many bodybuilders would be striving for . . .

By the way, there are several recent studies showing similar results (note the 2016 date)

 

[malfeasance]

Was that in a deficit ?

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Of course! Eating more protein does not change the laws of physics and transfer of energy from one body to another.

- - - Updated - - -

You're so salty man. Firstly, never said you post broscience . . .
Relax killer

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LOL! Sorry, man. I thought it was aimed at me, since you quoted my post.

 

[Lokthan]

Of course! Eating more protein does not change the laws of physics and transfer of energy from one body to another.

Found a bunch of info proving the same.

But what if in a surplus? Thats what ive been trying to find

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[malfeasance]

Was that in a deficit ?

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Here is the link, Lokthan, sorry I could not find it earlier. I was excited to find my note to remember it and just cut and pasted . . .

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-016-0114-2


It appears that what I posted above, taken not from the study but from a doctor writing about the study, is absolute bullshit. The actual study does not back up any of that. In fact, the conclusion is that there was no statistically significant difference between the groups.

In addition, it was whey protein - anybody reading my posts here knows what I think of getting your protein from shakes.

I will go back and delete what I posted above.

Wow, I posted my own bullshit not related to the actual findings of the study . . .

 

[malfeasance]

Quote:


This is the third investigation from our laboratory that has examined the effects of a high protein diet (i.e., > 2 g/kg/day). Previously published work has shown that consuming a high protein diet (4.4 g/kg/day) does not significantly affect body composition (i.e., no statistically significant change in FFM, fat mass or % body fat) in trained individuals who do not substantially change their exercise regimen [2]. On the other hand, a follow-up study found that a high protein diet (3.4 g/kg/d) in conjunction with a periodized heavy resistance training program can favorably alter body composition [5]. It should be noted that although the previous investigation used resistance-trained subjects, training experience varied greatly. The current study used only highly experienced resistance-trained males (i.e., ~8 years of training experience with a mean 1-RM bench press of 126 kg). They could lift on average ~1.5 times their body weight. The subjects in the current study also had more than twice the resistance training experience as those in our prior investigation [5].
Similar to our first investigation [2], the current study found no statistically significant effects of a high protein diet on body composition, 1-RM bench press strength or muscular endurance (RTF at 60 % of the 1-RM bench press) when compared to the normal protein group. Although our subjects consumed approximately 400 additional calories daily for eight weeks, there were no significant changes in fat mass despite the fact that there were no changes in their exercise regimen.

 

[Lokthan]

Here is the link, Lokthan, sorry I could not find it earlier. I was excited to find my note to remember it and just cut and pasted . . .

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-016-0114-2


It appears that what I posted above, taken not from the study but from a doctor writing about the study, is absolute bullshit. The actual study does not back up any of that. In fact, the conclusion is that there was no statistically significant difference between the groups.

In addition, it was whey protein - anybody reading my posts here knows what I think of getting your protein from shakes.

I will go back and delete what I posted above.

Wow, I posted my own bullshit not related to the actual findings of the study . . .

Youre good dude, i still listen to a lot of shit you have to say, even though i think science>experience, a lot of shit is still unexplained

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[malfeasance]

Apparently, I cannot go back so many posts and delete the bullshit I wrote, so now I am spreading ignorance like a contagious disease. So the best I can do is post a warning. Be Careful! Do not believe anything I wrote above. Read the links to actual studies I posted and come to your own conclusion based on what the study says, not what I wrote about it above!

 

[malfeasance]

Although our subjects consumed approximately 400 additional calories daily for eight weeks, there were no significant changes in fat mass despite the fact that there were no changes in their exercise regimen.

That is interesting all by itself

BUT it means my answer above, about being in a calorie deficit, is also bullshit!

Still interesting, though, an extra 400 calories daily and no extra fat gain over the other groups.

 

[malfeasance]

With highly trained subjects, it is important that one examine individual data points. Nine of 11 subjects demonstrated a decrease in fat mass during the high protein diet phase. Two subjects showed an increase in fat mass. Relying on mean changes, particularly for trained subjects, is not an ideal way to understand the adaptive response to diet and/or exercise. Both mean and individual data points provide a much clearer picture of how high protein intakes affect various measures. Certainly, the small sample size (i.e., the study was underpowered) is likely the reason for the lack of statistical significance regarding fat mass. Nevertheless, the intriguing finding in the current study is that overfeeding on protein does not typically have an adverse effect on body composition.
The possible explanations for the lack of weight gain in our subjects include the following: changes in the thermic effect of exercise (TEE) as well as non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) might account in part for the slight decrease in percent body fat in the high protein diet group [6, 7]. Ostensibly, NEAT can vary by as much as 2000 cal between individuals [7]. Thus, it is possible that in our group of well-trained subjects, NEAT could account for some of the additional energy expenditure. In addition to NEAT, dietary protein itself has profound thermic effect. Protein’s thermic effect of feeding (TEF) is 19–23 % in both obese and lean individuals whereas carbohydrate is approximately 12–14 % [8]. A high protein diet (45 % total kcal) elicits a 30 % greater TEF than an isocaloric low protein (15 % total kcal) in active females [9]. The subjects in our study did not alter fat or carbohydrate intake; thus, that could not be an explanation for changes in body composition. Thus, one might speculate that the high protein diet group experienced a combination of enhanced TEF, TEE and NEAT. Furthermore, recent animal data suggest that a high-protein diet might reduce fat mass by inhibiting lipogenesis in the liver [10].