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Rapid Muscle Loss During PCT

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    Rapid Muscle Loss During PCT

    Hi

    This is my first post so apologies if it is in the incorrect section or there is some required information that I leave out.

    Basically my problem is that after I completed a 12 week cycle of test e and tren e, I have been losing muscle rapidly, my energy and motivation are low, and I find myself constantly tired. I suspect that it may be low natural testosterone at this point. My diet, PCT, training, water intake, sleep are all good. More details on all of these follow.

    Firstly my Stats
    1.82m, just turned 25. I have been training consistently for around 7 years now.
    Before Cycle: 90kg, roughly 14% bf
    During Cycle: 88kg, roughly 8% bf
    Currently, 7 weeks post cycle, 88kg, roughly 14% bf
    These may not seem like big differences but visibly the difference in size is significant. Clothes that I bought when I was 20 (around similar bf% and before any cycles) to fit comfortably now hang loose on me. It isn't just in my head as those around me and colleagues have made comments about this as well.

    My Cycle
    Weeks 1 - 12: Test E 500mg
    Weeks 3 - 12: Tren E 300mg
    Weeks 1 - 12: Proviron 25mg eod
    I started the cycle not taking any arimidex but after some sensitivity in my nipples and slight puffiness after the first couple weeks I started with arimidex 0.5mg eod, later going to 1mg eod to fully reduce the puffiness.

    PCT (counting weeks immediately after cycle ends)
    Week 1 - 2: Proviron 50mg ed
    Week 3: Proviron 25mg ed
    Week 4: Clomid 100mg ed
    Week 5 - 8 (+ 2 days): Nolvadex 20mg ed
    Week 5 onwards: 500 iu HCG eod for a total of 5000 iu
    I currently have a week of PCT left.
    I originally stopped the arimidex as I started the clomid but after the sensitivity returned after a few days I continued on 1mg eod.

    The cycle itself was great, I was losing fat and putting on muscle with veins popping out in every direction. I had no side effects during the cycle.

    Previous Cycles
    Previous cycles have all been test e only or test e and deca. All 12 weeks and on average I take off around 6 months after PCT before the next cycle. This is my first cycle with Tren. My first cycle was a bit young, I was 21, but it was a very, very small dose and so was the next one. I took almost a year off after each of those cycles.

    Back to my problem, I am not sure when it started exactly, either just before the end of my cycle or just after but as soon as 3 weeks after the end of my cycle I was getting comments about how I look much smaller. Since then it has only gotten worse with my clothes getting even looser and my mood, motivation and tiredness getting worse. My weight has stayed quite constant throughout but fat % has also been going up. As I said, the numbers don't look to bad but visibly it is quite shocking. My eyes have also been a bit dry recently and my contact lenses feel uncomfortable, although I am not sure if this is related.

    My diet is quite clean and I get around 3300 calories with enough in each food group. I also make sure to take multivitamins, fish oils etc. During the cycle I was on around 2300 calories. Before my cycle I estimate my maintenance at around 3000 calories. In terms of water I get an average of 5 litres a day.

    My training is also not a problem, although I loose some motivation after the first few lifts, I still try to push as much as I can and move decent weight. I train 5 times a week. My strength has only gone down slightly since the end of the cycle but is consistent with what it was before the cycle. I also get at least 7 hours of sleep every day and I have a desk job which is not overly stressful. There is also no other factors in my life which would be causing me stress at this point in time.

    I am sure that the gear and PCT are not poor quality as I get pharmaceutical grade where I can, I can feel them working and my brother also takes the same stuff and has none of these problems.

    I have had a similar problem before, after a previous cycle I did loose muscle mass rapidly and I can't remember how long it took to recover then. After other cycles the effects were not bad but I didn't actually keep my gains. My diet and training and always been quite good.

    I believe my symptoms are consistent with low natural test. I have just started on some USN Testo Tribulus and have stinging nettle root tea now in the hopes they will help with my natural test. I have not have any bloods done as I am not sure which blood tests should be done exactly. I will see my GP after I finish my PCT if nothing has improved. I am obviously keen to avoid any suggestion of TRT at this age so I would like to try everything possible before that. The only PCT that I will be able to get my hands on quite quickly now is HCG. As mentioned above, I did use it during my PCT but I also have seen things get a bit worse as well during that time. I am able to get private blood tests done quite quickly but it is a bit costly so I also want to avoid the number of tests that I do

    So my questions are:
    What is causing this exactly?
    What should I have done differently with the cycle to prevent this?
    Is this normal, I have searched forums for days and couldn't find anyone with a similar issue.
    What can I do now to cure this?
    Will things just sort itself out after time and how long should I expect this to take?
    What blood tests should I do, and what is the next step once I get the results?

    In addition, I appreciate any other comments or suggestions about anything else that I have said here.
    At this point I think I am done with the gear, my body clearly doesn't react very well to it. Even during the cycles my gains are not so significant that it is worth risking this, however I am still interested in what should have been done differently. My main concern now is just sorting this issue out.

    Apologies for the long post, and thanks in advance for the help.

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    Bump!

  3. #3
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    I'm just going to make mention of the things that jump out at me that I see you doing all wrong with your PCT:

    #1. You're using HCG all wrong. HCG should NOT be used after the Clomid is finished. That's backwards. HCG should be used FIRST in the beginning week of the PCT and BEFORE the Clomid begins.

    #2. The problem with relying on Arimidex to prevent gyno is that it might not prevent an Estrogen rebound effect once it's halted. I strongly suggest you use Aromasin instead since Aromasin does not allow the rebound effect after it's discontinued.

    #3. You should NOT wait until over a month into your PCT to start the Nolvadex. Nolvadex should be used for the entire PCT period, (and BTW I like to use it all through the steroid cycle as well). I also recommend that Nolva be used for as many weeks after the gear cycle as the gear cycle duration itself lasted. So if you were on the gear for 12 weeks, then use Nolva for 12 weeks after the cycle is ended. Otherwise you can get post cycle gyno.

    #4. I don't think that using Proviron during the PCT is a good idea since Proviron is technically an anabolic steroid. So you really don't need any exogenous androgen to be present in your blood stream when you're trying to get your own natural testosterone levels to bounce back. Not even a weak androgen like Proviron. Where in the world did you learn how to use the PCT like you have been doing? No offense, but your methods are all wrong. So whoever has advised you to do it the way that you have been doesn't know what he's talking about

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    It's hard to know what's going on since you don't have bloodwork. Basic labs off-cycle is $57 through privatemdlabs, a better one with mass-spec T is $72 at labsmd. You'd want to add in a mass-spec E2 assay as well since you've been using tren (or if within 6-8 wks of tren-e). All this is detailed in a sticky in Lab Testing.

    Likewise, read the First Cycle sticky which will detail PCT etc.

    Your gear could be good, underdosed, or bunk... on a case-by-case basis. Same with ancillaries. Gotta have bloodwork. Otherwise you risk losing all your gains (as you've experienced) which means the cash spent on gear and food, not to mention all your time and efforts, go down the drain. Hard to see the labs as pricey when viewed that way. Also... injuring yourself (e.g. liver) is also a potential massive expenditure that labs might help avoid. Just some perspectives. To me, skipping bloodwork is like skipping oil changes on your Ferrari.

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    Wow wtf kind of pct protocal is that.... That's all sorts of fucked up.

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    Firstly, thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate it. I followed the PCT protocol from
    https://www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/a...-cycle-therapy
    The additional Proviron was at the advice of a bodybuilder.

    I do understand now there were things that should have been done differently, for example using HCG during the cycle/ at the beginning of PCT as opposed to during. I did blindly follow the advice of others which was entirely my fault. My problem is what to do now.

    Unfortunately I could only get my hands on Arimidex, Aromasin simply wasn't available.

    I am not based in America, I checked with the lab again now and they told me that I need a doctor to book the tests. I will see the GP next week as soon as the PCT is done, I did find in the past that some GP's are not entirely clued up on issues like this so I wanted to know what blood tests I should get him to request and also what suggestions to bring to the table.

    I am currently out of all types of PCT so I will need to order stuff which may take a while.

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    Hi, first thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.
    The PCT protocol that I followed was taken from https://www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/a...-cycle-therapy
    The additional Proviron was at the recommendation of a bodybuilder.

    Yes I realise many mistakes were made, I blindly followed the advice of others which is entirely my fault. Researching afterwards and from the advice here I realise that there was no need for the Proviron, HCG should have been taken during the cycle/ at the start of PCT and the nolva and clomid usage here was not consistent with what is recommended. Also I did not do any bloods which is also stupid in hindsight. My problem though is now that I have put myself in this situation, what should be done now.

    My body's reaction still seems a bit severe to me, from my searches and there's others that I know that don't even do PCT who don't have effects like these. As mentioned earlier it is actually the same methods used by this other bodybuilder who seems to keep almost all his gains.
    Just to reply to the above, unfortunately I couldn't get my hands on Aromasin, just Arimidex. Also I am not based in America for those labs. I had a chat to the lab workers here now and apparently I do in fact need a doctor to request them. I will see the GP next week after I finish with the Nolva. I did find in the past that some GP's are actually quite clueless on issues like these so I wanted to know what blood tests to ask him to request and also what recommendations to bring to the table.

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    Test, estrogen, FSH, LH, lipids, thyroid, metabolic profile

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    Thanks, it is quite expensive (The quote for the following works out to around $125) so I just want to make sure the following are correct. As written on the testing form I showed the reply above to the consultant and she chose the following tests Lipogram, Testosterone | FTI, E2, FSH, LSH, TSH| FT4. With the commas separating different tests. I will only be able to do the tests next week. It is quite expensive so are there perhaps vital tests and then I can return for the others later if needed.

    I will only be able to do the tests next week, should I post the results here first or take it to the GP. Also what are the next steps if I take it to the doctor first, should I look to be running another form of PCT, perhaps another course of Nolva, Clomid or HCG. In the mean time until tests come back also what should I be doing and should I order anything?

  10. #10
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    At the point you're at now, I'd get some Clomid and Nolvadex as soon as possible. If you anticipate it taking awhile, then make sure that you have something in your system to compete with estrogen in order to prevent post cycle gyno. If you don't have any AI nor anti-E's to accomplish that right now, then get some Proviron, Masteron, or Test in your system until you get more Nolvadex and clomid. But once the Clomid and nolvadex has landed, START up the Nolvadex right away, and STOP taking everything else 2 or 3 days before you begin the Clomid. And from here on do NOT pay any attention to your former sources of info in PCT

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    Your pct might be the worst I've ever seen, probably didn't help you recover at all. The guys above outlined it pretty well, I'd run a correct Pct and then bloods 4 weeks after to see if it helped

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    Thanks, I will be able to get my hands on a container of Clomid and Nolva this weekend, the Clomid has 15 capsules of 50mg (and I have 1 extra) and the Nolva has 30 capsules of 20mg (and I have the 5 capsules left that was planned for the next few days). Should I be starting a whole new PCT with Nolva and Clomid, what dosages should I be looking at? Do I need to take any arimidex? Can I just run that and then get bloodwork after?

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    Also would I need any HCG at this point

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    Honestly if I were you I'd do this. Run hcg at about 1000iu eod for 10 days so you'd need 5000iu. Also during that time take a low dose of adex because it will elevate your e2, around .25mg eod. Then 3 days after your last hcg shot run the standard pct of nolva at 40mg ed for the first 2 weeks and clomid at 100mg ed also. Then next two weeks cut those doses in half. I'd run that adex dose through about the first week or week and a half of your nolva/clomid then drop it. After that I'd wait 4 weeks and get bloods done to see where I was at and how it worked.


    This is just what i would do in your situation. Other guys might have a different idea and they can chime in here. But at your point with the provi and poor hcg useage I would assume I was still shut down and just start from scratch. You need someone like chocolatemalt to chime in here and give his opinion, he'll probably tell you to get bloods before anything but it sounds like you're still shutdown and your poor pct plan makes that understandable. So I would wait for bloods til after a proper pct. just my opinion

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    Ok so I just read the rest of your paragraph haha. So you didn't take anytime to wait for your long esters to clear, correct? You pretty much did this all wrong bro. When running tren I first would have ran test alone 2 weeks longer to give the tren time to clear and then you needed to wait 2 more weeks before pct so the test could clear also. You weren't taking any prami or caber either? If your e2 got out of control your prolactin was more then likely high also causing more problems. You really need to learn what you're doing before attempting this again, I'm not trying to bash you or anything but you could have avoided all this with a little more research. We have everything you need to know right here on this site

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