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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdawg View Post
    Curious... do you start to get some estrogen sides and then treat it with an AI or do you look at labs to determine?


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    Some indicators of high estrogen are puffy face and mood swings if you don't have labs, but the tell tale sign is puffy or itchy nipples, pain in the nipples . These are signs of "pre" gynocomastia aka bitch tits. You DO NOT want this. The good thing is that even temporary pre gyno can be treated easily with Nolva at say 20mgs ED. If you look at my avatar I took that photo at Montasaris and was just blasting some sust and other goodies for some random videos and photo shoots. I was competing in Strongman at the time so even though my physique is not 1000%, for a strongman I assure you it is the top 1% of how they look.

    So anyways I have a tiny of pre gyno even in those photos.

    You can ride it out a bit and then jump on an AI low dose.

    Remember, you do not ever want to eliminate all Estro. This is why I hate letro. Letro will destroy E. Completely. This is why guys think it cures gyno. It doesn't. It helps the body return to homeostasis when you are on a cycle and your estro is high, causing pregyno and then your body is able to completely get rid of lumps or puffiness.

    Estrogen is necessary in the body and is responsible for strength and muscle growth in general.

    So if you go on HRT, my advice is watch for any E sides, and if you don't have any. Stick with it. As soon as you see them introduce a very low dose AI. IF they continue, increase the AI. Stay on during and right after PCT and then discontinue ONLY when you are sure you no longer have a hormonal imbalance.

    Blood work and experience are ways to know this.

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    Just want to mention senstive nips is just the sign I know my E is high, another symptoms I can get is a sexual side: shittier erections (weaker and less sensation but easier to orgasim)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GYMnTONIC View Post
    Yes sir you got it. The length of time you run Clomid is determined by lab work. And I will tell you this. I have seen THOUSANDs of labs so you can trust me on this. HPTA takes 2-12 months to return. The older you are, the more cycles you have used, the harder is to return your body to Natural HPTA production "IF" you can.

    Studies PROVE that many AAS users, even from 1 cycle can shut down their baseline and lose hundreds of nanograms.

    For instance I can have a client with an 800 nano level natural run a cycle for 4 months. He can come off and we can do clomid for 3-4 months and he returns to a 6-700 level. He gets off for 3 months, retests and now he is at a 3-400 nano level.

    This is VERY common. One cycle is all it takes to lower your baseline. The good thing is Clomid can keep you at a higher level. The bad thing is that people test while on clomid and foolishly think that is their "baseline". That is not your baseline. Clomid is an exaggerated but healthy exaggeration of what you naturally produce.

    If you are lucky, you cycle clomid and you gain an increase in your current situation. For instance I have several clients who have had a 300 nano level. They jump on clomid and they are at 800-1000. They get off after a few months and then retest and they are now a 600 nano.

    Huge improvement in a hypogonadal patient.

    My apologies if none of this makes sense, but hopefully it does.

    Ty for the purchase and enjoy. I take 2 caps a day. 1-2 caps a day is all you need. 1 for HRT, and 2 if you are a long time AAS user or abuser. NAC, tyrosine and tudca protect liver lungs, heart and kidneys. I only wish I started them in my 20s when I was abusing AAS and competing for 20+ years.

    Glad to share the info that I have learned along the way.
    Makes total sense. This is good reading. I really appreciate it! Hot Rod is right, you guys know your shit.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GYMnTONIC View Post
    Some indicators of high estrogen are puffy face and mood swings if you don't have labs, but the tell tale sign is puffy or itchy nipples, pain in the nipples . These are signs of "pre" gynocomastia aka bitch tits. You DO NOT want this. The good thing is that even temporary pre gyno can be treated easily with Nolva at say 20mgs ED. If you look at my avatar I took that photo at Montasaris and was just blasting some sust and other goodies for some random videos and photo shoots. I was competing in Strongman at the time so even though my physique is not 1000%, for a strongman I assure you it is the top 1% of how they look.

    So anyways I have a tiny of pre gyno even in those photos.

    You can ride it out a bit and then jump on an AI low dose.

    Remember, you do not ever want to eliminate all Estro. This is why I hate letro. Letro will destroy E. Completely. This is why guys think it cures gyno. It doesn't. It helps the body return to homeostasis when you are on a cycle and your estro is high, causing pregyno and then your body is able to completely get rid of lumps or puffiness.

    Estrogen is necessary in the body and is responsible for strength and muscle growth in general.

    So if you go on HRT, my advice is watch for any E sides, and if you don't have any. Stick with it. As soon as you see them introduce a very low dose AI. IF they continue, increase the AI. Stay on during and right after PCT and then discontinue ONLY when you are sure you no longer have a hormonal imbalance.

    Blood work and experience are ways to know this.
    Awesome. This has been my approach... wait and see and avoid if I can.

    Iím 50+ and have only two cycles under my belt. Iím a late bloomer/learner but wanted a boost for some years in my 50ís.


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    In addition to the sides Wes mentioned, you may get swelling in the lower legs. Know how your wife complains about her ankles and feet swelling during that time of the month? Yeah, like that. You can usually check pretty easily by poking a finger into your shin and seeing if it leaves an indentation.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multislacking View Post
    In addition to the sides Wes mentioned, you may get swelling in the lower legs. Know how your wife complains about her ankles and feet swelling during that time of the month? Yeah, like that. You can usually check pretty easily by poking a finger into your shin and seeing if it leaves an indentation.
    Lol!


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    Quote Originally Posted by GYMnTONIC View Post
    Clomid at 25mgs ed is the very first step a patient "can" take when they approach an Endocrinologist. For instance I worked with Metabolic Dr. and that was one option. I have seen the average hypogonadal patient acheive about 600-1000 n/dL levels on that dosage. So you would be in a healthy, non superphysiological range.

    HCG also can be used as HRT. Though it is suppressive.

    As for AI's like Multi said, unless you "need" it, don't use one. On HRT, I would say the majority of patients I dealt with in the Medical field, did not need one "IF" they stayed on true HRT dosages. HRT dosages are not "cycles". This new generation thinks 500mgs of Test per week is HRT. That is a cycle.

    What we found best was administering 100mgs of Test Cyp/E every 4th day. We also administered or O'Connor (Metabolic Dr) HCG at 250-500iu 2x per week. With the addition of the HCG you may indeed see a little bit more estrogen while on cycle.

    Nevertheless if you do need an AI, on HRT, I personally have seen way to high of dosages. What I use with my guys and what I prefer is Exemestane, and we will start out as low as 6.25mgs e3d. You will see an increase in free testosterone when taking something like EXEM alongside your HRT dosages.

    Also jump on some liver support. What alot of newbies or even AAS abusers don't realize, is that your body metabolizes Testosterone. Their is an indvidual response based on how "YOU" metabolze testosterone. The healthier your organs and liver, the more likely you are going to metabolize testosterone better. Guys with massive stress to their organs will then test their levels and blame the brand for being poor quality when many times it is because their body is so taxed it is metabolizing testosterone poorly.

    This is what I use myself and with clients. I didn't come here intending to sell you something but I certainly will show you what it is I carry, use and sell.

    Another tip I will give you is to rotate injection sites constantly. The body will absorb and do much better with fresh muscle tissue, then if you keep injecting into the same area. Oil can build up in that site and not only slow down absorption rates, but it can also form an abcess or pre-abcess.

    Easiest place for a newbie are the glutes, shoulders and pecs. I personally do not suggest Quads bc the rate of Preabcess, lumps and pain is the highest of any injection area in my experiences with patients, clients and personally.

    If you need a legit TRT option that will prescribe you an actual decent amount of Test and 100% legal you can uise my buddies place
    www.titanmedicalcenter.com

    Good luck

    Organ and Liver support

    http://stores.gymntonic.com/c-e-r-t-...ged-nutrition/

    Trust the knowledge from this man. One of the smartest, most informed guys on the boards.

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    Got all my labs and my doc put me on TRT. Nothing but test. Man, Iíd love to try a little HGH as well. Any experience with that added to a TRT?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdawg View Post
    Got all my labs and my doc put me on TRT. Nothing but test. Man, Iíd love to try a little HGH as well. Any experience with that added to a TRT?


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    Tons of experience

    2-3iu before bed at night is super common

    5days on 2 days off or 7days on straight is common

    6-12month runs is common

    My personal recomendation would be Orangetops by Iron Lion or Acetropins by Ace Labs.

    There's a ton of good hgh out there. There's a ton of counterfeits. But those 2 I mentioned I assure you that you will be pleasantly surprised by their quality.

    I'm not affiliated with either. No WES15 code at discount.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vision View Post
    Considering the research you've done I hope you understand the commitment that you're about to make.
    I'm no specialist and I'm not going to give any medical advice, but I do have an opinion, and a lot of these sites that people join online fall into a cookie cutter protocol.
    I'm not stating that these protocols are ineffective, because in fact they do work but that will vary on each individual. TRT can be a real cunt, and it takes some time to dial things in, and sometimes trt can transition into full blown HRT, meaning you may have to incorporate other synthetic hormones eventually and people don't even consider this. Whether it's HGH, DHEA, anti estrogens or even thyroid meds, and worst case insulin.

    My suggestion is to see someone in person that you can trust, during the beginning it's not going to be easy because they'll be a lot of adjustments made. The specialist will be trying to get to know your body, and at the same time you're going to have to get to know your body all over again. Trt is not a plug and play and a lot of older lions tend to think it is.

    Any specialist that is against a particular protocol, I would always question because any real men of science would always keep every option on the table for consideration. If you get into a certain program or protocol a lot of times guys don't realize that they're playing a game with treating symptoms, and that's all they end up doing is putting Band-Aids here and there.
    Once you mess with one hormonal level there's a good chance it's going to fuck with others, it's a Cascade of events. And there's a lot of drugs out there that have off label properties that find their way into therapeutic treatments, but because of some people's narrow perspective they wouldn't know about it.

    Don't be a rope-a-dope and fall for the trt trend, I strongly encourage people to avoid going on if there's other methods, even starting off with gels and patches or implants is not off the table.

    BEAR IN MIND THAT SYNTHETIC TESTOSTERONE IS NOT GOING TO MAKE YOUR BODY RESPOND LIKE IT'S YOUR TESTOSTERONE. YOUR BODY WILL NEVER TRULY RESPOND TO SYNTHETIC TESTOSTERONE LIKE IT DOES TO YOUR NATURAL TESTOSTERONE.

    Good luck.

    And don't settle for a one size fits all approach!!!!!!
    Vision...that is excellent advice! I'm 53 now. I started trt at 43 because I had to. When a person takes that route, you got yourself in a life long commitment. It sounds so easy when you first start it, but damn, year after year of taking shots do get old. Take it from an older guy. I still workout hard, but even now at my age, my little "cycles" are little because I get tired of my body being a pin cushing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GYMnTONIC View Post
    Tons of experience

    2-3iu before bed at night is super common

    5days on 2 days off or 7days on straight is common

    6-12month runs is common

    My personal recomendation would be Orangetops by Iron Lion or Acetropins by Ace Labs.

    There's a ton of good hgh out there. There's a ton of counterfeits. But those 2 I mentioned I assure you that you will be pleasantly surprised by their quality.

    I'm not affiliated with either. No WES15 code at discount.
    Appreciate the advice as usual! Iíve heard good things about both, Iíll look into it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dawg16 View Post
    Vision...that is excellent advice! I'm 53 now. I started trt at 43 because I had to. When a person takes that route, you got yourself in a life long commitment. It sounds so easy when you first start it, but damn, year after year of taking shots do get old. Take it from an older guy. I still workout hard, but even now at my age, my little "cycles" are little because I get tired of my body being a pin cushing.

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    Good point... thatís what Iím worried about. I feel like crap though so I think I can deal with it, but like you said...


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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdawg View Post
    Good point... thatís what Iím worried about. I feel like crap though so I think I can deal with it, but like you said...


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    Not disagreeing w/ anyone here, but imo it's WAY worth a shot a week or in some cases every 2 weeks to feel like a man again- it's like night and day- ur either depressed,sluggish, no libido, or ur confidant, got that "get up and go"feeling and u get a hard-on when the wind blows. Take ur pick bro. Which sounds better? U get used to the pinning man- don't miss the boat- think of it as ur a diabetic and u need a shot! Just my opinion- but too me, it's a no-brainer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdawg View Post
    Got all my labs and my doc put me on TRT. Nothing but test. Man, Iíd love to try a little HGH as well. Any experience with that added to a TRT?


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    what was your T level on your labs

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler7 View Post
    what was your T level on your labs
    147.... pathetic


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