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Bible Thread

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The four horsemen

1.) pestilence- the ruling of the anti Christ?
2.) war - world war 3 and civil unrest/wars within all nations?
3.) famine - obviously, starvation due to environment, economic and population reason ?
4.) death - the end of the suffering on earth or, for some, the beginning of eternal suffering?
 
I've been reading a book written in the 50s called raptured. Very detailed and surprisingly graphic considering when it was written. If you can find it give it a read
 
I've been reading a book written in the 50s called raptured. Very detailed and surprisingly graphic considering when it was written. If you can find it give it a read
Post a pic of it

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I tried I'll try again later. I seem to forget how to send pictures last time it took me 5 or 6 tries hahaha
 
I tried I'll try again later. I seem to forget how to send pictures last time it took me 5 or 6 tries hahaha
 

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Amazing to see this

Jews seek permission to blast shofar on Temple Mount

Would be first time since destruction of biblical-era structures

This year, the first day of Rosh Hashanna is on Saturday, the Sabbath.

"According to Jewish law, it is forbidden to blow the shofar on the Sabbath except for on the Temple Mount," he explained. "So we submitted a request to permit a group of Jews to do so; to blow the shofar on the Temple Mount on the first day of Rosh Hashana."

The last such display was some 1,950 years ago.

https://www.wnd.com/2020/08/jews-seek-permission-blast-shofar-temple-mount/

https://www.israel365news.com/15714...ount-for-first-time-since-temple-destruction/
 
4.) death - the end of the suffering on earth or, for some, the beginning of eternal suffering?

Just a small comment on "eternal suffering". Without looking it up, the original word meant something more along the lines of "until finished/complete". In other words, people aren't going to roast in hell for eternity. Which I can't picture a loving God doing to anyone to begin with. That "eternal hell fire" has been used to intimidate the masses for so long that most people just accept it without much thought. A better translation would be along the lines of "you'll be finished/gone forever". If you think about it, is there anyone who could enjoy heaven knowing their lost loved ones were in eternal torment?

Just something to think about.
 
Just a small comment on "eternal suffering". Without looking it up, the original word meant something more along the lines of "until finished/complete". In other words, people aren't going to roast in hell for eternity. Which I can't picture a loving God doing to anyone to begin with. That "eternal hell fire" has been used to intimidate the masses for so long that most people just accept it without much thought. A better translation would be along the lines of "you'll be finished/gone forever". If you think about it, is there anyone who could enjoy heaven knowing their lost loved ones were in eternal torment?

Just something to think about.
Forever and ever is from "ages of the ages". Its used in reference to god who lives forever and ever or ages unto ages. It literally means forever. One of my assignments was studying the usage of the phrase everywhere it appeared in the book. In Revelation if you study every passage its meaning becomes clear from the context and usage. Obviously god lives forever so the meaning can and should mean eternal. In my class 25 years ago we had a guy who believed the same as you. After about 6-7 weeks of study he saw the problem.
 
Forever and ever is from "ages of the ages". Its used in reference to god who lives forever and ever or ages unto ages. It literally means forever. One of my assignments was studying the usage of the phrase everywhere it appeared in the book. In Revelation if you study every passage its meaning becomes clear from the context and usage. Obviously god lives forever so the meaning can and should mean eternal. In my class 25 years ago we had a guy who believed the same as you. After about 6-7 weeks of study he saw the problem.


Not sure I'm following. So do you think people that go to hell will literally be tormented in fire for eternity?
 
As sad as it is to think of people living for eternity separated from God, that is exactly what will happen. We will see the way God sees on that day, everyone who doesn’t choose God for eternity will in essence have stepped over the cross to choose that eternity away from God, what does that mean? Here’s a summary of what I believe scripture says about it.
In Heaven we will bask in Gods presence, God is love, God is life, God is light, no man can imagine what God has in store for those that love Him. In hell, absent God's presence is death, darkness, and fear. Quite on the contrary, hell will bring a mans worst fears to him torturing him day and night and there will be no relief, nonstop he will be surrounded by death, fear, and darkness. No mind can imagine what it will be like absent the giver of life, think of the darkest thoughts on earth and remember God is still present. I dont have the words to accurately describe what living without God ’s presence will literally and physically feel like. The fear, death and darkness will be more than man can bear except that is exactly what they will do, bear it for eternity. I believe it t breaks Gods heart more than mans when people do not choose Jesus gift of salvation. God loves our families more than we ever can or do. I try to imagine what God feels like when man walks over Jesus to enter hell.



Just a small comment on "eternal suffering". Without looking it up, the original word meant something more along the lines of "until finished/complete". In other words, people aren't going to roast in hell for eternity. Which I can't picture a loving God doing to anyone to begin with. That "eternal hell fire" has been used to intimidate the masses for so long that most people just accept it without much thought. A better translation would be along the lines of "you'll be finished/gone forever". If you think about it, is there anyone who could enjoy heaven knowing their lost loved ones were in eternal torment?

Just something to think about.
 
IML Gear Cream!
Well I've said it before and I'll say it again. I could very well be wrong. And this is why everyone should study for themselves and not just take another person's opinion. Whatever hell may be, I'm erring on the side of caution. :p

I will say the guy I was studying with was working on his theology doctorate at the time (and has it now) and spoke greek and hebrew and had a VERY compelling case for what I said before. Not that he was alone in that belief, of course. Hell, the state of the dead, etc is definitely a wedge issue for religions. The one thing they can agree on is hell is the place you don't want to be. :whip:
 
As sad as it is to think of people living for eternity separated from God, that is exactly what will happen. We will see the way God sees on that day, everyone who doesn’t choose God for eternity will in essence have stepped over the cross to choose that eternity away from God, what does that mean? Here’s a summary of what I believe scripture says about it.
In Heaven we will bask in Gods presence, God is love, God is life, God is light, no man can imagine what God has in store for those that love Him. In hell, absent God's presence is death, darkness, and fear. Quite on the contrary, hell will bring a mans worst fears to him torturing him day and night and there will be no relief, nonstop he will be surrounded by death, fear, and darkness. No mind can imagine what it will be like absent the giver of life, think of the darkest thoughts on earth and remember God is still present. I dont have the words to accurately describe what living without God ’s presence will literally and physically feel like. The fear, death and darkness will be more than man can bear except that is exactly what they will do, bear it for eternity. I believe it t breaks Gods heart more than mans when people do not choose Jesus gift of salvation. God loves our families more than we ever can or do. I try to imagine what God feels like when man walks over Jesus to enter hell.
Good stuff.
Hell is a place where God isn't. People choose to either accept God or reject Him. If you reject God on earth then you get to spend eternity without Him. Its completely our choice but that choice must be made before death. Choose this day who you will serve.
 
Not sure I'm following. So do you think people that go to hell will literally be tormented in fire for eternity?
You were posting about the original word. Its actually a phrase. Just look up every occurrence of the phrase "ages of the ages" in Revelation. Its commonly translated forever or forever and ever. Once you see how its used in various contexts you will see what it means. How long do you think God lives? Is it forever or is it just some ages that are finite?
 
You were posting about the original word. Its actually a phrase. Just look up every occurrence of the phrase "ages of the ages" in Revelation. Its commonly translated forever or forever and ever. Once you see how its used in various contexts you will see what it means. How long do you think God lives? Is it forever or is it just some ages that are finite?

I think God is forever. But I don't think actual active torment in hell is forever. Burnt up and gone forever, yes. And again, I'm doing this from memory so I may be off by an inch or a mile. The phrases where it refers to hell being forever or specifically "their smoke ascendeth forever" was where I was going with my original thought. IIRC it was even compared to the biblical times dump that was perpetually on fire outside one of the cities. I'm winging it here and not looking it up at this point...so correct me if I'm wrong. And that scripture is where people typically point to hell being forever (time wise). I mean, if you throw a stick in the fire, it is burnt up forever and will never be a stick again. But the stick doesn't burn for eternity. Am I making sense? It's been a rough week. :confused:

Where it says their smoke rises forever....is the same greek word used for forever there as is used elsewhere that it refers to God as being forever? And...is it like the word agape, where it can mean different things?

You're gonna make me look this up, aren't you? :p
 
I think God is forever. But I don't think actual active torment in hell is forever. Burnt up and gone forever, yes. And again, I'm doing this from memory so I may be off by an inch or a mile. The phrases where it refers to hell being forever or specifically "their smoke ascendeth forever" was where I was going with my original thought. IIRC it was even compared to the biblical times dump that was perpetually on fire outside one of the cities. I'm winging it here and not looking it up at this point...so correct me if I'm wrong. And that scripture is where people typically point to hell being forever (time wise). I mean, if you throw a stick in the fire, it is burnt up forever and will never be a stick again. But the stick doesn't burn for eternity. Am I making sense? It's been a rough week. :confused:

Where it says their smoke rises forever....is the same greek word used for forever there as is used elsewhere that it refers to God as being forever? And...is it like the word agape, where it can mean different things?

You're gonna make me look this up, aren't you? :p
I am following you but lets stick with ages of the ages for a bit longer. The English word Hell is translated from various Greek words and I agree one of those Greek words is a burning dump. However lets look at two verses by the same author using the same phrase "ages of the ages". I am providing more than 25 English translations for each verse. I took first century Greek but I wont go that deep yet.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-10.htm

Revelation 10;6 refers to God who lives forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 20;10 refers to a place of torment that is forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

There are more passages like these so I'm not basing this off of just two usages of ages of the ages. Do you see how the torment is literally forever and ever rather than a finite amount of ages? If you accept the translation from Rev 10;6 than you must accept the translation from Rev 20;10.

Anyway,, this is a bit of a tangent. I'm a bit more focused on the fact that the trumpet is likely being blasted in a couple weeks on the Mount seeing how that is a sign of the departure.
 
A Trumpet blast and Sign of the departure? what do you mean by those?


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Anyway,, this is a bit of a tangent. I'm a bit more focused on the fact that the trumpet is likely being blasted in a couple weeks on the Mount seeing how that is a sign of the departure.

Can you elaborate more on this point? Specifically how it is a sign of the departure
 
I am following you but lets stick with ages of the ages for a bit longer. The English word Hell is translated from various Greek words and I agree one of those Greek words is a burning dump. However lets look at two verses by the same author using the same phrase "ages of the ages". I am providing more than 25 English translations for each verse. I took first century Greek but I wont go that deep yet.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-10.htm

Revelation 10;6 refers to God who lives forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 20;10 refers to a place of torment that is forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

There are more passages like these so I'm not basing this off of just two usages of ages of the ages. Do you see how the torment is literally forever and ever rather than a finite amount of ages? If you accept the translation from Rev 10;6 than you must accept the translation from Rev 20;10.

Anyway,, this is a bit of a tangent. I'm a bit more focused on the fact that the trumpet is likely being blasted in a couple weeks on the Mount seeing how that is a sign of the departure.

I'm following you. I think. ;)

So Lucifer and the false prophet are singled out and mentioned in the forever and ever. Buuuuuut....the unbelievers, etc are singled out a few verses later:

Ch20
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
--and--

Ch21
8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

And maybe this is where I have a difficult time thinking it is eternal torment for unbelievers. It refers to it multiple times as the "second death".

And again, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or anyone is right (especially me). That's why they're called beliefs. I try to look at things in the context they are being used currently and then in the context of the entire scripture. If God is loving, just, merciful, etc...I can't picture Him tormenting sinners for eternity. Nor could I picture heaven being a wonderful, happy, blessed place when we'd know our sinning parents, siblings, spouses, children, etc didn't make it and were being tormented currently. There's already been one rebellion in heaven and I think that would set the stage for a second one. I can literally picture someone saying "Hey, God...quit burning my babies."

I'll throw sodom and gomorrah out there. Fire and brimstone. And the only other reference I can think of that got that treatment. Are they still burning? No. Just nuked and gone forever.

A few things....this thread is great. I'm glad to see Heavy posting again on the daily. I needed a spiritual kick in the butt. Thanks to Wes for starting it. And thanks to everyone for not turning it into the usual Pit shit show. :grouphug:
 
An agnostic wanting to help out a beliver. That is so ironic it's funny. What are you going to help him with, how to not believe?
 
You could look at it like eternity will be a continuation of what path we're on now. Only those with faith love Jesus and delight in Him, and are being changed to be like Him progressively. The dominant force in their/our lives is loving God by loving people by the power of the Holy Spirit. Free from slavery to hate and sin, and free, and becoming freer, to love and obey God not self. Free to submit to our King Jesus. That wouldn't be pleasing to a proud arrogant person, not "heaven." The 2 sides' view of what's good are polar opposite. Who wants to deny himself and obey someone else (Jesus)? Until one is reborn he can't see or want the kingdom (John 3). Unbelievers will be thrown in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew). Jesus is coming and the most important thing we can do is be ready to be with Him in paradise and tell people. And when we screw up admit it and get back up.

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Curious on y'alls thoughts of of Masons and their worship of Baphomet or Lucifer. Are they the same? I know they claim Lucifer was the first rebel...and called him the Morning Lord(iirc) or light bringer. I have no doubt the real light bringer is the one and only GOD.... but I would love to have seen the fall out in person to know the ins and outs....if only
 
Curious on y'alls thoughts of of Masons and their worship of Baphomet or Lucifer. Are they the same? I know they claim Lucifer was the first rebel...and called him the Morning Lord(iirc) or light bringer. I have no doubt the real light bringer is the one and only GOD.... but I would love to have seen the fall out in person to know the ins and outs....if only

I've met masons that thought they were worshiping the one true God. I've met others that thought they were doing something else and got out. It's a can of worms I try to never touch.

From the ones I know, it's just a good excuse to get away from the wife and have some guy time, social networking, and do some charitable things. The Shriners hospitals do some amazing work.
 
Today is 9/ 11. Don't forget to thank God today for allowing us to be born in the greatest country in the world.
 
I am following you but lets stick with ages of the ages for a bit longer. The English word Hell is translated from various Greek words and I agree one of those Greek words is a burning dump. However lets look at two verses by the same author using the same phrase "ages of the ages". I am providing more than 25 English translations for each verse. I took first century Greek but I wont go that deep yet.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-10.htm

Revelation 10;6 refers to God who lives forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 20;10 refers to a place of torment that is forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

There are more passages like these so I'm not basing this off of just two usages of ages of the ages. Do you see how the torment is literally forever and ever rather than a finite amount of ages? If you accept the translation from Rev 10;6 than you must accept the translation from Rev 20;10.

Anyway,, this is a bit of a tangent. I'm a bit more focused on the fact that the trumpet is likely being blasted in a couple weeks on the Mount seeing how that is a sign of the departure.
very interesting about the sign of the departure

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I am following you but lets stick with ages of the ages for a bit longer. The English word Hell is translated from various Greek words and I agree one of those Greek words is a burning dump. However lets look at two verses by the same author using the same phrase "ages of the ages". I am providing more than 25 English translations for each verse. I took first century Greek but I wont go that deep yet.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-10.htm

Revelation 10;6 refers to God who lives forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 20;10 refers to a place of torment that is forever and ever (ages of the ages)

NET Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

There are more passages like these so I'm not basing this off of just two usages of ages of the ages. Do you see how the torment is literally forever and ever rather than a finite amount of ages? If you accept the translation from Rev 10;6 than you must accept the translation from Rev 20;10.

Anyway,, this is a bit of a tangent. I'm a bit more focused on the fact that the trumpet is likely being blasted in a couple weeks on the Mount seeing how that is a sign of the departure.
heres another take on it if this is what your referring to

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/is-the-last-trumpet-blown-for-the-rapture

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doesn't the temple have to be rebuilt in order to start things off for the return on christ?

this would involve booting the muslims from the site & destroying their mosque?



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doesn't the temple have to be rebuilt in order to start things off for the return on christ?

this would involve booting the muslims from the site & destroying their mosque?

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No event has to happen before the departure at this point if you believe in a pre-tribulation view. . It could literally happen any day.
 
I believe that the start of tribulation is the signing of the 7 year peace accord with Israel. Israel is the Jewish nation, that's why it is referred to as Jacob's time of trouble in the book of Daniel. I also believe that this will not happen until the rapture of the church. Jesus said no man would know the day or the hour. That's why we need to know for sure whether we believe in christ as the messiah or not. There won't be 2 minute whistles to announce the game is going to end
 
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