Anyone have an vicaine they wanna sell?

CSOReaper said:

Sherk,

Appreciate the adult discussion. I can always look forward to that with you.

I won't even bother to respond to Mike anymore, as I don't have time to read a novel of BS.

I'll just leave this here. Posted by Arnold in the supp forum.

https://www.nutraingredients-usa.co...ine-supplements-making-opioid-related-claims?

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Nice diversion tactic. This type of response (diversion tactic) is soooo common today. It is used repeatedly all over the boards anytime someone has no rebuttal to what was stated. Every time I would post a response you would say "I am not going to respond to your BS anymore", when in fact you never responded at all. You actually ignored every single response I posted. Why? Because you have no rebuttal...and it is glaringly obvious to anyone who read through the thread, which is why EVERY single member here not only disagreed with you, but some of them even ripped you a new ass.

This could have gone so much better. You made false staments about Vicaine, false accusations towards me, false inferences about me, and put words in my mouth...all because you didn't take the time to throughly read what was posted. Then, instead of just saying "yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't fully read your post and made assumptions" (which I would have been completely OK with and which would have resolved everything), you instead start slinging insults and diverting from the topic at hand. That is how weak men deal with things. Strong men can admit when they're wrong and apologize. I have apologized numerous times on this board when I was wrong or made false assumptions. I know I can be abrasive at times, but I actually hate being at odds with people...and almost always end up feeling bad after the fact, especially when I am wrong or the one at fault. In these cases I almost always end up publicly apologizing. It might take me a little bit to cool off, but I always do.

There was no need for any of this. I don't have any ill feelings towards you, but please understand that it is natural for me to defend myself when you make false accusations towards me. You flat-out said that I was posting inaccurate information simply because I was trying to make money, which I took great offense to. Not only was that untrue, but I don't even sell the product anymore. You also accused me of saying tianeptine isn't potentially addictive, when I have not only never said that, but have repeatedly warned people about is addiction potential oon this board. You alos said that Vicaine was highly addictive (you were wrong) and posted a quite a few inaccurate statements.

Then, after I told you that you made false accusations, false inferences, and claimed I said something I never said, you didn't admit to any of it, even though the record of it is right here in this thread. You instead chose to start insulting me and telling me I was posting BS, without ever responding to a single thing I said. I am sure you are capable of understanding why no one would take kindly to that. With that said, I am done now (unless you carry on) and just want things to go smoothly from here on out.

Sherk said:

Interesting read. It even mentions MA Labs as receiving a warning letter. Thanks for the post

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Yeah, that's why I had to stop selling it. The FDA agent in charge of the case was actually very cool. I was suprised at just how nice he was. I was expecting him to put me on full blast and be very cold--business-like and threatening, but he wasn't like that at all...and even told me happy Thanksgiving. All he wanted was for me to stop selling it. It gave me a definite respect for him, as I realized he was dealing with me as as someone with a business tring to take care of their family, not as some criminal that he has disdain for. It not only gave me respect for him, but for the FDA in general. It was my first dealing with them and they didn't come off like bad guys at all.

Mike Arnold said:

Nice diversion tactic. This type of response (diversion tactic) is soooo common today. It is used repeatedly all over the boards anytime someone has no rebuttal to what was stated. Every time I would post a rebuttal you would say" am not going to respond to your BS anymore", when in fact you never responded at all. You actually ignored every single rebuttal I posted. Why? Because you have no rebuttal...and it is glaringly obvious to anyone who read through the thread, which is why EVERY single member here not only disagreed with you, but some of them even ripped you a new ass.

This could have gone so much better for you. You made false staments about Vicaine, false accusations towards me, false inferences about me, and put words in my mouth...all because you didn't take the time to throughly read what was posted. Then, instead of just saying "yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't fully read your post and made assumptions" (which I would have been completely OK with and which would have resolved everything), you instead start slinging insults and diverting from the topic at hand. That is how weak men deal with things. Strong men can admit when they erred and apologize. I have apologized numerous times on this board when I was wrong or made assumptions. I can be barsive at at time, but I have no problem apologizing when I am at fault. It might take me a few minutes ot cool off, but I always do. But this kind of stuff is just silly.

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You have some serious mental issues and I mean that.

Let me ask you something there smart guy. Why aren't you selling Vicaine anymore? Huh? Is it because you made false statements and the FDA made you pull it? YES, I will answer that for you.

You are way in over your intellectual level.

I stated FACT. All one has to do is read the FDA cease and desist letter they sent you. It wasn't my opinion.

Oh and only a scumbag would include Kratom in the Vicaine description. That is why the FDA has it out for Kratom, morons like you using it for personal gain.

And if you think any different, prove it. The FDA shut that product down. Am I wrong?

roscoe221 said:

What we do is for sure on us. Mikes product really couldn’t be abused because of the other ingredients. The problem is in the ABUSE of straight tia. Even the most hardcore opi user could take a healthy dose of tia sodium and feel like the first time that used whatever opiate they like with the addition of being entirely calm yet really motivated. This sucks folks in. But unlike prescription meds where if you go on a 2 week binge you may have a couple not so great days, 2 weeks on a few grams of sodium you’re in for a world of shit. Like coming off opiates, ssri and benzos all at once.

It’s not an understatement that a person with a bag of sodium could start out feeling amazing on 500mgs a day and be in the multiple grams range a week later.

A bit off the topic but I really think ULDN is about the best thing a person can use to fix themselves up if they’ve been down the opiate path.

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Coming off a few grams tia per day, especially cold turkey, would be horrid. It would also be a very costly habit.

CSOReaper said:

You have some serious mental issues and I mean that.

Let me ask you something there smart guy. Why aren't you selling Vicaine anymore? Huh? Is it because you made false statements and the FDA made you pull it? YES, I will answer that for you.

LOL. I would suggest NOT answering because you are wrong, again. I had to stop selling it because it is not DSHEA approved..period. This is because tianeptine is considered an unapproved drug. That's why I had to stop selling it...and the ONLY reason I had to stop selling it. And no, I never made "false statements" about Vicaine. Agaain, this is an example of you either not fully reading what the FDA letter said, or not having the reading comprehension to understand it. Essentially, in addition to the FDA telling me I couldn't sell it due to it not being DSHEA compliant, they alos told me that I couldn't make drug-like statements in my product description (which is still on the website). They said drug-like statements can only be made in reference to drugs, not dietary supplements. They didn't say I made untrue statments, but only that they were drug-qualifing stayements...and the FFA doesn't allow that in dietary supps.

The bottom line is that it does not meet DSHEA approval. That is the reason I had to pull it. I think that is common sense. If the product had met DSHEA approval, all I would have had to do to continue selling it was re-word my description so that it did not include drug-like statements. You see, because tianeptine is considered an unapproved drug in the US, I wasn't able to male claims based on European clinical studies. The Eiropean scientufic literature uisn't wrong,. but I can;t use it in conjunction witha US-based dietary supplement. So, once again you are wrong.

My product descdriptrion is still up...and the FDA posted everything I said that they had an issue with (in the warning letter). Please, go ahead and post anything I said that was untrue. My product descriprtion is right here. Man, you just keep making a fool out of yourself: https://masupps.com/product/vicaine/

You are way in over your intellectual level.
It appears you are, my friend, being that just about everything you've stated up to this point has been wrong.

I stated FACT. All one has to do is read the FDA cease and desist letter they sent you. It wasn't my opinion.
LOL. Virtually everything you stated was untrue, incluidng this post right here.

Oh and only a scumbag would include Kratom in the Vicaine description. That is why the FDA has it out for Kratom, morons like you using it for personal gain.
How does me comparing Vicaine to kratom make me a moron? They are both opipid aginsts with opioid-like effects. If you think that makes me a moron, OK.

And if you think any different, prove it. The FDA shut that product down. Am I wrong?
Of course the FDA told e to stop selling it, just like they do to every company that sells non-DSGEA compliant products. LOL. I said that over amonth ago when I stopped selling it.

So, please make sure to post the supposed false staments I made about Vicaine. I gave you the link above. Everything that FDA said in the letter directly pertains to that.

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Bro, you keep making yourself look worse and worse.

I suspect you will ignore my post once again...because you won't be able to find one false statement anywhere in my description. Please try. It was very well researched with numerous cientrific refeences. Remember, this is the main point of your current post. You diectly said the FDA made me stop selling Vicaine because I was making false statements about the product. Please find them. Like I said above, when it comes to wording, the FDA's issue was that my statments qualified the product as a drug. He told me that in order to make drug-like statements, I would need to apply for new drug status (because the US doesn't reciognize tia as an approved drug), but that even if I did so I would still have to stop selling because drug's can't be included in duetary supps. Basically, he was telling me that no matter what I did, I would have to stop selling it. He nevr said or implied I was being dishonest or that my claims regarding tianeptine were untrue, which is what you are implying here.

So, being that you haven't been able to back up one thing you've said thus far...and are now moving onto something else because everyone ripped you a new asshole after your first round of untrue statements, I am asking you to PLESASE back up this one. Please don't leave me anging again.

Mike Arnold said:

Bro, you keep making yourself look worse and worse.

I suspect you will ignore my post once again...because you won't be able to find one false statement anywhere in my description. Please try. It was very well researched with numerous cientrific refeences. Remember, this is the main point of your current post. You diectly said the FDA made me stop selling Vicaine because I was making false statements about the product. Please find them. Like I said above, when it comes to wording, the FDA's issue was that my statments qualified the product as a drug. He told me that in order to make drug-like statements, I would need to apply for new drug status (because the US doesn't reciognize tia as an approved drug), but that even if I did so I would still have to stop selling because drug's can't be included in duetary supps. Basically, he was telling me that no matter what I did, I would have to stop selling it. He nevr said or implied I was being dishonest or that my claims regarding tianeptine were untrue, which is what you are implying here.

So, being that you haven't been able to back up one thing you've said thus far...and are now moving onto something else because everyone ripped you a new asshole after your first round of untrue statements, I am asking you to PLESASE back up this one. Please don't leave me anging again.

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First, your spelling is elementary. Second, your ingredients are covered under this sta TV cement on the FDA correspondence. Only states that you need to file for a new drug huh? Read the "unsafe additive". Hmm, I must not be able to read then. Have a good Christmas, hopefully your family purchased you Hooked on Phonics for adults.


Adulterated Dietary Supplements

Even if your Vicaine product did not have claims that make it an unapproved new drug and misbranded drug, Vicaine would be an adulterated dietary supplement under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)] because it contains an unsafe food additive. Your Vicaine product is labeled as a dietary supplement. Given that you have declared your Vicaine product as a dietary supplement in the labeling of your products, we assume you have a basis to conclude that the product is a “dietary supplement” under section 201(ff) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)].

The Supplement Facts label for your Vicaine product declares tianeptine as a dietary ingredient. Under section 201(ff)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)(1)], a dietary ingredient is a vitamin; mineral; herb or other botanical; amino acid; dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of the preceding substances. Tianeptine is not a vitamin; mineral; herb or other botanical; amino acid; dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of the preceding substances. Accordingly, tianeptine is not a dietary ingredient within the definition set forth in section 201(ff)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)(1)].

If a substance is not generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by qualified experts for its intended use in food and does not qualify for any of the other exemptions from the food additive definition,[1] it is a food additive. Food additives require premarket approval based on data demonstrating safety. Any food additive that has not been approved for its intended use in food is deemed to be unsafe and causes the food to be adulterated under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)]. Adulterated foods cannot be legally imported or marketed in the United States.

Section 201(s) of the Act [21 U.S.C § 321(s)] exempts dietary ingredients used in dietary supplements from the food additive definition. However, non-dietary ingredients intended for use in dietary supplements, such as the tianeptine used in your dietary supplement product, are not exempt from the food additive definition and must meet the same requirements as substances added to conventional foods. In other words, a non-dietary ingredient added to a dietary supplement must be used in accordance with a food additive regulation or be GRAS for its intended use, unless it qualifies for another exception to the food additive definition.

Tianeptine is not generally recognized as safe under its conditions of use in your dietary supplement product. Because tianeptine does not qualify as a dietary ingredient and is not GRAS or otherwise exempt from the food additive definition, your Vicaine product is adulterated under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)] because it contains an unsafe food additive.

CSOReaper said:

First, your spelling is elementary. Second, your ingredients are covered under this sta TV cement on the FDA correspondence. Only states that you need to file for a new drug huh? Read the "unsafe additive". Hmm, I must not be able to read then. Have a good Christmas, hopefully your family purchased you Hooked on Phonics for adults.


Adulterated Dietary Supplements

Even if your Vicaine product did not have claims that make it an unapproved new drug and misbranded drug, Vicaine would be an adulterated dietary supplement under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)] because it contains an unsafe food additive. Your Vicaine product is labeled as a dietary supplement. Given that you have declared your Vicaine product as a dietary supplement in the labeling of your products, we assume you have a basis to conclude that the product is a “dietary supplement” under section 201(ff) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)].

The Supplement Facts label for your Vicaine product declares tianeptine as a dietary ingredient. Under section 201(ff)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)(1)], a dietary ingredient is a vitamin; mineral; herb or other botanical; amino acid; dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of the preceding substances. Tianeptine is not a vitamin; mineral; herb or other botanical; amino acid; dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of the preceding substances. Accordingly, tianeptine is not a dietary ingredient within the definition set forth in section 201(ff)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(ff)(1)].

If a substance is not generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by qualified experts for its intended use in food and does not qualify for any of the other exemptions from the food additive definition,[1] it is a food additive. Food additives require premarket approval based on data demonstrating safety. Any food additive that has not been approved for its intended use in food is deemed to be unsafe and causes the food to be adulterated under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)]. Adulterated foods cannot be legally imported or marketed in the United States.

Section 201(s) of the Act [21 U.S.C § 321(s)] exempts dietary ingredients used in dietary supplements from the food additive definition. However, non-dietary ingredients intended for use in dietary supplements, such as the tianeptine used in your dietary supplement product, are not exempt from the food additive definition and must meet the same requirements as substances added to conventional foods. In other words, a non-dietary ingredient added to a dietary supplement must be used in accordance with a food additive regulation or be GRAS for its intended use, unless it qualifies for another exception to the food additive definition.

Tianeptine is not generally recognized as safe under its conditions of use in your dietary supplement product. Because tianeptine does not qualify as a dietary ingredient and is not GRAS or otherwise exempt from the food additive definition, your Vicaine product is adulterated under section 402(a)(2)(C)(i) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 342(a)(2)(C)(i)] because it contains an unsafe food additive.

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Exactly! Anything that is not DSHEA approved is considered an "unsafe" food addictive, but let's get back to the current crux of the issue, which is that you claimed I had to stop selling Vicaine because I made false statements about the product.

You just said this in your last post, so why are you leaving me hanging again? I gave you a link to the description and asked you to please post anything that was false...and you ignored me. Like I told you earlier, if you post accusations against me one more time you must be prepared to back them up, or you will be banned. I would do the same for any other member who had false accusations repeatedly made against them. You were warned...twice.

I HIGHLY suggest copying & pasting my untrue statements about Vicaine from my product description right now...because if you cannot back up your accusations, that is it for you, at lesast for now. I told you that this kind of dishonesty towards another member will not be tolerated. I even tried to patch things up with you after your barrage of insults and initial false allegations...and now you say this. Dumbfounding. I am waiting to see the lies I supposedly told customers about Vicaine.

Note: My apologies for my not correcting my typos in my last post prior to posting. I am fairly fast for a two finger typist, but it doesn't make for great accuracy. I forgot to go back and correct my spelling and punctuation errors, but if you want to see how I normally write you can reference any of my 300+ articles.

I have a few bottles of Vicaine if anyone needs some.

PM me for details

Thanks!