ART Bonus Topic 9/12

This week's bonus topic, since I've been slacking, plays into our current topic of recovery I believe.

@Oldschool brought this up to me and I missed it so here we go.

Exercise execution or form if you will.

Where do you struggle? What exercises, maybe we have pointers.

How much emphasis do you REALLY put into it?

Are you moving the weight and it doesn't hurt so you're good, or, are you focused on activating the target muscle?

Are you sacrificing form to get one more rep? Is it worth it?

Has age changed your views?

Let's hear it!

@Oldschool
@sherk
@heavyiron
@toureagv8
@REHH
@skipfoursome
@garlicchicken
@vision
@ldog
@tren2k14
@jerseydevil

another great topic..

Where to start..

for myself age is a factor but at the same time I'm capitalizing on that..
I've always struggled with flat benching, in fact it's always been painful for me and I tend to pull (over tuck) my elbows in for protection to assist with my left shoulder..Its a bad habit but my body is doing it for great reason, therefore I don't bench, at all..I focus more on volume.. The more and more I grasp biomechanics and the functionality of my movement the better I can dial it in.. example is employing more cables.. I focus more on TUT and forum and where I am mentally at during that state of failure.. I don't even count numbers, numbers are long gone for me.. One day I may be up 5-10lbs on curls and the next week but under 5lbs, I don't stress or fuss over that.. I focus on WHERE I AM AT THAT FAILURE moment, did I race to get there or did I earn those reps? I find that I'm responding much better with less setbacks/joint agitation with cables for myself because I'm dialing in and focusing on the TUT..I'm finding cables and "some machines" to be superior to free weights at my day and age..My chest routine is all machines and cables.. arms too (70%)..
with cables I can't sacrifice forum because the TUT is always there, there's no cheating, if I don't have it, I don't have it, no big deal, pull the pin drop set and grab 2-4 more reps, long as I'm mentally there and not clock watching or counting (I'm done with wasting time)..
As I'm getting older my back pumps are getting fierce, with vengeance, even the slightest movements ignite what feels like hrs of debilitating pain..My goals are all about targeting and less with incorporating..I don't stress or pay any mind these days to the "awesomeness" of free weights.. My movements and goals have shifted..I've also dropped most movements from 4 sets to 3 and decide to make up the difference with a different movement at the end basically borrowing a set from each movement to incorp an other at the end and I'll drop set the fuck out of it without compromising forum, if it aint there, drop again, and again..There's zero locking out, and the eccentric part of the movement is just as important to me concentric portion, my goals are TUT..I can honestly say that these days I annihilate my targeted group with 95% of my sessions.. This also bleeds right into the rest & recovery thread, where I take my down down serious a all f*ck with FOOD and rest,I'll take a nap, if I can't nap I'll unplug and shut my eyes, if I cant shut my eyes I'll eat.. But recovery is huge and I don't wish to rehab anything therefore I employ the above post!

[h=3][/h]

Montego1 said:

This week's bonus topic, since I've been slacking, plays into our current topic of recovery I believe.

@Oldschool brought this up to me and I missed it so here we go.

Exercise execution or form if you will.

Where do you struggle? What exercises, maybe we have pointers.

How much emphasis do you REALLY put into it?

Are you moving the weight and it doesn't hurt so you're good, or, are you focused on activating the target muscle?

Are you sacrificing form to get one more rep? Is it worth it?

Has age changed your views?

Let's hear it!

@Oldschool
@sherk
@heavyiron
@toureagv8
@REHH
@skipfoursome
@garlicchicken
@vision
@ldog
@tren2k14
@jerseydevil

Click to expand...

Yes my views have change dramatically since I started training and working at gyms in high school. Started training all body parts 3x a week, few years later dropped down to 2x a week, now 1x a week. Used to use mostly free weight, now mostly machines. Used to be overly concerned about being big and strong and so would force feed and dirty bulk constantly to stay as big and strong as possible; now more concerned about looks and health so eat better than ever now and stay leaner than ever. More concerned about injuries and longevity so now better form and technique on lifts, more reps, more warm up sets, more pyramiding up to peak weight. I used to always train with partners so doing negatives and forced reps was part of my normal routine, working out alone now so I do incorporate partial reps to go past failure, I go to failure on most of my working sets, or as close as I can safely. Overall I think I'm at the top of my game as far as training smarter, more efficiently and effectively, if I did this in my 20s I would of looked waaay better than I did back then.

REHH said:

Yes my views have change dramatically since I started training and working at gyms in high school. Started training all body parts 3x a week, few years later dropped down to 2x a week, now 1x a week. Used to use mostly free weight, now mostly machines. Used to be overly concerned about being big and strong and so would force feed and dirty bulk constantly to stay as big and strong as possible; now more concerned about looks and health so eat better than ever now and stay leaner than ever. More concerned about injuries and longevity so now better form and technique on lifts, more reps, more warm up sets, more pyramiding up to peak weight. I used to always train with partners so doing negatives and forced reps was part of my normal routine, working out alone now so I do incorporate partial reps to go past failure, I go to failure on most of my working sets, or as close as I can safely. Overall I think I'm at the top of my game as far as training smarter, more efficiently and effectively, if I did this in my 20s I would of looked waaay better than I did back then.

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Almost spot on to my approach too.. Machines are what I've been using along with cables.. machines will have limitations and awkwardness but there's no room for cheating or overcompensating for a rep.. example hammer/leverage machine is my go-to, its much easier to drop set as well.. smarter is a great way to put things..

This is where I lack the science or knowledge as to why, but I know what has worked best for me.

I have had so many different training programs written by coaches I have two favorites depending on what my goals are.

CUTTING
I like higher volume reps with lower weights going to failure. Usually 4 sets with 10-12 reps to failure with 60 second breaks.

BULKING
The best training for this has been 5X5 training for two weeks and for the third week I would go high volume with machines and cables, then back to 5X5 routine. I usually take 90 second breaks during bulking.

As to free weights, machines or cables I use them all. I do not think I would get enough variety without all three.

One thing that I do that sabotages my gains is I stay with one routine too long. When I should be changing up routines every 6-8 weeks I get too comfortable with a routine and do not change it up often enough.

And I need to ask this because I am confused. Why do guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders? Why do compound lifts instead of working individual muscles? I gave up deadlifts years ago as I did not see it as an advantage.

Any and all answers are welcomed

Skip Foursome said:

One thing that I do that sabotages my gains is I stay with one routine too long. When I should be changing up routines every 6-8 weeks I get too comfortable with a routine and do not change it up often enough.

And I need to ask this because I am confused. Why do guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders? Why do compound lifts instead of working individual muscles? I gave up deadlifts years ago as I did not see it as an advantage.

Any and all answers are welcomed

Click to expand...

I also believe changing up routines is mandatory, maybe even monthly.
Guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders because they are confused. Many try to lift as heavy as possible and have poor technique. Even with good technique, the guy or gal that lifts the heaviest weights in the gym very rarely looks anything close to a bodybuilder.
Compound lifts are good for someone like me who has no illusions of being a bodybuilder. If someone is/wants to be a bodybuilder they are ok with some compound lifts but are likely better off focusing exercises on individual muscles.
Fuck deadlifts. Again, even with good form I believe they put too much strain on the back.

I agree with lifter....I like to start my workouts off with a compound lift that focuses on whichever muscle group I am targeting that day. But most of my work is isolation movements. For me physique trumps raw strength... so you can throw cars around in the parking lot but when your in your 50’s you can’t get outta bed and have to cruise around in a wheel chair all day. No thanks. Bodybuilders look better and feel better in my opinion. And even light deadlifts destroy my lower back. So it’s been awhile since I’ve even incorporated those in my workouts.

lifter6973 said:

I also believe changing up routines is mandatory, maybe even monthly.
Guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders because they are confused. Many try to lift as heavy as possible and have poor technique. Even with good technique, the guy or gal that lifts the heaviest weights in the gym very rarely looks anything close to a bodybuilder.
Compound lifts are good for someone like me who has no illusions of being a bodybuilder. If someone is/wants to be a bodybuilder they are ok with some compound lifts but are likely better off focusing exercises on individual muscles.
Fuck deadlifts. Again, even with good form I believe they put too much strain on the back.

Click to expand...

Milford King said:

I agree with lifter....I like to start my workouts off with a compound lift that focuses on whichever muscle group I am targeting that day. But most of my work is isolation movements. For me physique trumps raw strength... so you can throw cars around in the parking lot but when your in your 50’s you can’t get outta bed and have to cruise around in a wheel chair all day. No thanks. Bodybuilders look better and feel better in my opinion. And even light deadlifts destroy my lower back. So it’s been awhile since I’ve even incorporated those in my workouts.

Click to expand...

I agree with all if that.

Anybody else?

https://youtu.be/v5YEO9V-2P8

Skip Foursome said:

This is where I lack the science or knowledge as to why, but I know what has worked best for me.

I have had so many different training programs written by coaches I have two favorites depending on what my goals are.

CUTTING
I like higher volume reps with lower weights going to failure. Usually 4 sets with 10-12 reps to failure with 60 second breaks.

BULKING
The best training for this has been 5X5 training for two weeks and for the third week I would go high volume with machines and cables, then back to 5X5 routine. I usually take 90 second breaks during bulking.

As to free weights, machines or cables I use them all. I do not think I would get enough variety without all three.

One thing that I do that sabotages my gains is I stay with one routine too long. When I should be changing up routines every 6-8 weeks I get too comfortable with a routine and do not change it up often enough.

And I need to ask this because I am confused. Why do guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders? Why do compound lifts instead of working individual muscles? I gave up deadlifts years ago as I did not see it as an advantage.

Any and all answers are welcomed

Click to expand...

ldog said:

https://youtu.be/v5YEO9V-2P8

Click to expand...

Wow!

Total thread derail.

I do give props to Steve and Richard, although I pity anyone that rides in Florida......the highest elevation is somewhere around 400 feet?

Whop-t-fucking-do!!!

lifter6973 said:

I also believe changing up routines is mandatory, maybe even monthly.
Guys and gals lift like powerlifters when they want to be bodybuilders because they are confused. Many try to lift as heavy as possible and have poor technique. Even with good technique, the guy or gal that lifts the heaviest weights in the gym very rarely looks anything close to a bodybuilder.
Compound lifts are good for someone like me who has no illusions of being a bodybuilder. If someone is/wants to be a bodybuilder they are ok with some compound lifts but are likely better off focusing exercises on individual muscles.
Fuck deadlifts. Again, even with good form I believe they put too much strain on the back.

Click to expand...

Milford King said:

I agree with lifter....I like to start my workouts off with a compound lift that focuses on whichever muscle group I am targeting that day. But most of my work is isolation movements. For me physique trumps raw strength... so you can throw cars around in the parking lot but when your in your 50’s you can’t get outta bed and have to cruise around in a wheel chair all day. No thanks. Bodybuilders look better and feel better in my opinion. And even light deadlifts destroy my lower back. So it’s been awhile since I’ve even incorporated those in my workouts.

Click to expand...

Skip Foursome said:

I agree with all if that.

Anybody else?

Click to expand...

I disagree with every bit of that except the deadlifts part.

Montego1 said:

I disagree with every bit of that except the deadlifts part.

Click to expand...

Well come on then.....let's hear it.

Skip Foursome said:

Well come on then.....let's hear it.

Click to expand...

You don't grow doing face pulls and single arm chest press at an angle with your feet crossed and elevated 3 inches above 25 degrees on the second Tuesday of the month.

Unless you're a freak, which none of us are, heavy compound movements with progressively heavier loads over time is THE tried and true way to grow. Period.

Name a single person who has gained a substantial amount of muscle using solely isolation movements and high reps. I can think of MAYBE two and they're both top Olympian competitors. Every other guy up there, you know what they're doing? Bb/dB Bench/Incline, Squats, lunges, Bb rows, t bar rows, dB/bb shoulder presses. And guess what, they're using heavy fucking weights.

Sure they add ACCESSORY lifts to isolate a muscle, throw in high reps sets to further exhaust a muscle but, make no mistake, they grew using compounds and heavier weights over time. Not bosu balls and gd fluffy bikini girl shit.

Much truth here! You have to overload the muscles for growth. There is no other way....in my opinion.


https://youtu.be/4UlgXIL0-3g

Montego1 said:

You don't grow doing face pulls and single arm chest press at an angle with your feet crossed and elevated 3 inches above 25 degrees on the second Tuesday of the month.

Unless you're a freak, which none of us are, heavy compound movements with progressively heavier loads over time is THE tried and true way to grow. Period.

Name a single person who has gained a substantial amount of muscle using solely isolation movements and high reps. I can think of MAYBE two and they're both top Olympian competitors. Every other guy up there, you know what they're doing? Bb/dB Bench/Incline, Squats, lunges, Bb rows, t bar rows, dB/bb shoulder presses. And guess what, they're using heavy fucking weights.

Sure they add ACCESSORY lifts to isolate a muscle, throw in high reps sets to further exhaust a muscle but, make no mistake, they grew using compounds and heavier weights over time. Not bosu balls and gd fluffy bikini girl shit.

Click to expand...

Montego1 said:

You don't grow doing face pulls and single arm chest press at an angle with your feet crossed and elevated 3 inches above 25 degrees on the second Tuesday of the month.

Unless you're a freak, which none of us are, heavy compound movements with progressively heavier loads over time is THE tried and true way to grow. Period.

Name a single person who has gained a substantial amount of muscle using solely isolation movements and high reps. I can think of MAYBE two and they're both top Olympian competitors. Every other guy up there, you know what they're doing? Bb/dB Bench/Incline, Squats, lunges, Bb rows, t bar rows, dB/bb shoulder presses. And guess what, they're using heavy fucking weights.

Sure they add ACCESSORY lifts to isolate a muscle, throw in high reps sets to further exhaust a muscle but, make no mistake, they grew using compounds and heavier weights over time. Not bosu balls and gd fluffy bikini girl shit.

Click to expand...

LOL! Okay I guess I'm screwed

With joints that have no cartilage and some arthritis along with herniated discs I have found isolated movements and higher volume the best method for me but then again I am not going for monster status.

What would you recommend (in general) for someone like me where I can only go so far with heavier weights?

Skip Foursome said:

LOL! Okay I guess I'm screwed

With joints that have no cartilage and some arthritis along with herniated discs I have found isolated movements and higher volume the best method for me but then again I am not going for monster status.

What would you recommend (in general) for someone like me where I can only go so far with heavier weights?

Click to expand...

More time under tension. Better execution.

The weight is irrelevant given the same stimulus is used in a certain rep range every set.

I know that sounds contrary to what I said but it's not.

Throwing around fast good reps of 315 hitting 8 at failure is equal to slower reps with 245 hitting failure at 8. This is what always happens - "I did 225 for 12 last time, I'm gonna go for 15 this time". Form breaks down, speed increases, completely different stimulus then the last time you did 225 for 12 with good TUT, and rep execution. Then you know what happens?? Damn..... My shoulder hurts.... I wonder why shit head.

If you think that machines help with joint issues, and sometimes they can but you're often sacrificing some metabolic stress from actually stabilizing the weight, the same idea applies.

Different strokes for different folks. I am somewhat in the same boat as Skip4 as far as what my partially broken body will allow me to do. I don't get associating someone else's workout preferences or opinions with being soft or girlish or whatever Monte said. I promise you my workouts are not soft. My goal is not to be on stage or necessarily grow. I do want to gain strength but not at the cost of injuring myself further. In the end everyone has their own approach and I say props to those who put in the work and do their best to improve themselves.

Definitely agree with this

Montego1 said:

More time under tension. Better execution.

Click to expand...

Montego1 said:

I disagree with every bit of that except the deadlifts part.

Click to expand...

Same here.
Deadlifts work so many muscles in one movement... I even advise the older client to do them mainly because they help with daily activities. The problem is very few know how to do them correctly.
Look around your gym and watch deadlifters... how many arch their back, roll their shoulders, hyper extend at the top, start with their butt too low, raise their head, start with the bar too far from their ankles... most of these lifters have weak glutes and quads and use too much weight...

Skip Foursome said:

LOL! Okay I guess I'm screwed

With joints that have no cartilage and some arthritis along with herniated discs I have found isolated movements and higher volume the best method for me but then again I am not going for monster status.

What would you recommend (in general) for someone like me where I can only go so far with heavier weights?

Click to expand...

When my doc saw my MRI that showed herniated discs I asked what lifts to avoid. He was competing in an iron man and lives the life. He said don't do anything that causes pain and DON'T do deads. LOL!

Montego1 said:

More time under tension. Better execution.

The weight is irrelevant given the same stimulus is used in a certain rep range every set.

I know that sounds contrary to what I said but it's not.

Throwing around fast good reps of 315 hitting 8 at failure is equal to slower reps with 245 hitting failure at 8. This is what always happens - "I did 225 for 12 last time, I'm gonna go for 15 this time". Form breaks down, speed increases, completely different stimulus then the last time you did 225 for 12 with good TUT, and rep execution. Then you know what happens?? Damn..... My shoulder hurts.... I wonder why shit head..

Click to expand...

The 315 to failure will produce muscular strength... slower reps at 245 will produce muscular endurance but not the same strength as the 315. Both are time under tension but the tension (overload) is less at 245.

Montego1 said:

I disagree with every bit of that except the deadlifts part.

Click to expand...

Oldschool said:

Same here.
Deadlifts work so many muscles in one movement... I even advise the older client to do them mainly because they help with daily activities. The problem is very few know how to do them correctly.
Look around your gym and watch deadlifters... how many arch their back, roll their shoulders, hyper extend at the top, start with their butt too low, raise their head, start with the bar too far from their ankles... most of these lifters have weak glutes and quads and use too much weight...

Click to expand...

So I am confused.

Monte agreed about deadlifts not being beneficial and you say they are.

Maybe you misread his quote?

I dont do deadlifts Skip so we are tight like that

Skip Foursome said:

So I am confused.

Monte agreed about deadlifts not being beneficial and you say they are.

Maybe you misread his quote?

Click to expand...

Skip Foursome said:

So I am confused.

Monte agreed about deadlifts not being beneficial and you say they are.

Maybe you misread his quote?

Click to expand...

Must have been one of those senior moments...
Almost everyone deadlifts in their daily lives... it's a natural movement to pick something up off the floor. Your quality of life will be much better if you can do it efficiently and if you are building muscle then there is no other movement that gives so much bang for the buck.