• 👋Hello, please SIGN-UP FOR A FREE account and become a member of our community!
    You will then be able to start threads, post comments and send messages to other members. Thanks!
  • 💪IronMag Labs® 30% Off Easter Sale👉www.ironmaglabs.com Coupon code: EASTER30🐰

ART Topic - Most Underrated/Overrated 5/1

IML Gear Cream!
Awesome thanks man. Never thought I would get any benefit from doing it that way...will try it out
Yeah you could use them the same way.

Just dose it 45-60 minutes pre workout and enjoy.
 
I might come off as being indifferent to other opinions here but that is not my point.

I think my opinion varies from others for a few reasons:

Age
Goals
Genetics

All of three play a big role in what drugs a user finds useful and an absolute necessary item to use when reaching or maintaining goals. I do this because I like being active, I enjoy going to the gym and challenging myself physically, the discipline of proper nutrition and the science behind the drugs. You have to fire on all cylinders when doing this properly and can get very technical.

As to my goals, they are nowhere near many guys on here, I am not a bodybuilder or even a physique guy, this is a hobby for me, nothing more

If I had only two drug scenarios to pick from:

Option 1
Run 250mg of test and 10ius of GH per week with the amount of AI and T4 necessary

OR

Option 2
Run all the test and AAS ancillaries I want with no limitations but GH is excluded

I would pick Option 1 all day long.

First I would start with our bodies are made to run on Test and GH, it is what our bodys are made to consume. Granted exogenous hormones do present some issues compared endogenous hormones but with very little downside.

UPSIDE TO USING TEST
Without test you cannot build muscle, and because I was low-t I lived this and I can tell you I withered for years not knowing I had this condition.
DOWNSIDE TO USING TEST
The downside for me cruising on test is possibly higher Hematocrit, Hemoglobin and RBC levels. This problem can be solved with test proper dose and regular blood donation.


UPSIDE USING GROWTH HORMONE
Without GH fat lipolysis (fat used as energy) does not occur. As someone that was in his 50s and now 60 I can tell you GH is a game changer and mandatory.
DOWNSIDE TO USING GROWTH HORMONE
The downside to running GH is lower TSH levels when using T4 and IGF levels can diminish using GH over the long term. If you take time on and time off like blasting and cruising AAS this solves this problem.


OVERRATED
As to overrated Monte is spot on with his opinion on orals and that has been my opinion for some time.

Note, I still do stupid shit so I do not want to come off high and mighty over other guys using orals. Just last month I got a sample of Halo just to try it out. I like to experiment with various AAS, but on a whole, orals are overrated.

UNDERRATED
Mast-P is becoming one of my favorites. Mast plus test is like peas and carrots on a cut. If you are looking for a good hardening agent I think Mast is a great choice over Anavar and Proviron with less side effects those two orals have. Anavar though considered mild, kills my lipids and proviron is just a little easier on me then Anavar but I do not use anymore.

I agree with JerseyDevil on Trest-A. It is methylated but not as nearly toxic as Sdrol, Dbol, Adrol and is really good at filling me out, and little goes a long ways. It is a wet compound so you will hold water while on, but for me the water came off and in a week or so and I was still much fuller looking after a 6 week run which plenty enough time to get what you need from this short ester

Orals may not give you quality mass in the long term but when I am on 50mg tbol, the pump while training hell fuck it gives me real orgasm in gym.
 
500mg of prop will aromitase by far more then 500mg of enanthate.

The overall milligram of actual testosterone in test p compared to prop will have something to do with that but, the rate at which it is in and out is the biggest factor.

I can't say how much ai you should use cause that's just a guess but, if I were running that dose of enanthate I would prefer aromasin. That dose of prop, adex.

Adex is a bit stronger and would help if you do get those big spikes in estrogen from the faster acting prop ester but, it's not as forgiving on your e2 and can have a negative effect on lipids.

Aromasin is more forgiving on regulating e2 but not as well suited for those who aromitase more due to doses, age or just predisposition. It won't effect lipids much if any though.

Bloodwork will be the factor to make your decision. You don't want to crush your estrogen since that's needed to grow but, you don't wanna grow a nice set of boobs either.

I like mine around 25-35 on cycle.

I've heard of Adex tanking lipids. I went and had blood work done on .25mg e3d of adex and my HDL was in the toilet. Everything else looked ok. 1 month later off cycle and it bounced back to a great number.
 
UNDERRATED
Mast-P is becoming one of my favorites. Mast plus test is like peas and carrots on a cut. If you are looking for a good hardening agent I think Mast is a great choice over Anavar and Proviron with less side effects those two orals have. Anavar though considered mild, kills my lipids and proviron is just a little easier on me then Anavar but I do not use anymore.
I totally agree with you about masteron-p, I've used it when cutting for a few years now. Definitely one of my favs. I actually like it better then primo and it's a lot cheaper.
 
I totally agree with you about masteron-p, I've used it when cutting for a few years now. Definitely one of my favs. I actually like it better then primo and it's a lot cheaper.

Ive just started running masteron and trying to figure out how low a dose will still have effects. I run trt year round now. No blasting or cruising. Was thinking how low I could go with masteron and run it long term. I'll get bloods to find out how I'm responding, but thought I'd ask what others opinions would be on length and dosages for long term masteron.
i respond well but have sides to most aas, so low doses are the way for me. Not interested in running anything to extreme or highly dosed.
 
Ive just started running masteron and trying to figure out how low a dose will still have effects. I run trt year round now. No blasting or cruising. Was thinking how low I could go with masteron and run it long term. I'll get bloods to find out how I'm responding, but thought I'd ask what others opinions would be on length and dosages for long term masteron.
i respond well but have sides to most aas, so low doses are the way for me. Not interested in running anything to extreme or highly dosed.

200mg a week will yield results, especially for someone who is running only trt, maybe even only 100mg.
 
200mg a week will yield results, especially for someone who is running only trt, maybe even only 100mg.
100% agree.

When using test with mast while blasting I usually run them 500mg and 300mg a week respectively.

I have no doubt 200mg would do the trick and maybe even 100mg.

I would give the 100mg a try.
 
I like the strenght boost from orals give me more motivation and drive. I thought the point of orals like anadrol was not only the strength but the pumps helping you stretch the fascia?
 
so heres my dumb ass question. how would you compare test base to orals like dbol or tbol. do you get a good strenght boost? lets say you run test enth 500mg a week with test base instead of an oral.
 
250mcg sub q 2x a day in the area of the injury.

Based off conversion from the rodent studies, 400mcg is right about the effective dose for healing on a 100kg male.

Bpc157 is systemic but it does show some localized healing properties as well.
doesnt BPC-157 accelerate cancer cell growth?
 
so heres my dumb ass question. how would you compare test base to orals like dbol or tbol. do you get a good strenght boost? lets say you run test enth 500mg a week with test base instead of an oral.
Personally, I don't feel it a ton after I've been on.

I feel a bump with test base but not like anadrol, halo, SD or dbol pre workout.

Tren base would be a better option or, an injectable oral

Adding that much test base a week on top of a cycle could get tricky with estrogen.
 
Most overrated = HGH - Not enough bang for the buck in my opinion. If you're looking for an increase in lean muscle, while decreasing body fat there's plenty of compounds that can do this while maintaining a clean diet. The sides are really what I don't like about hgh. Even at a dose of 3.3iu/day I found the lethargy and brain fog very hard to deal with. I got to the point where I was nodding off at my desk at work. No bueno. The water retention was quite bad for me as well. My face looked like a jelly donut and my fingers looked like stuffed sausages. When I increased my dose to 4-5iu/day I found the wrist and elbow pain unbearable, which made training miserable.

Most underrated = Proviron - You should consider adding proviron to every cycle as it's increase in free test is worth it's weight in gold. Free test is what builds muscle. I also found that proviron helped to improve my sense of well being, which really helps on a tren cycle, and although it's not considered an AI it does help to control e2.
The benefits of proviron FAR outweigh the sides, which in my case there were no negative sides when used up to 100mg/day.

I think your opinions of rHGH are valid but the older I get the more I like it. Its a good way to stay lean and a good way to heal faster. Its also proven to work synergistically with Testosterone. Test and GH are in some respects the fountain of youth and you don't really need that much GH. I think part of the problem is all the clowns posting stupid high doses on the net and everyone believing that they have some inside info. I always laugh when someone posts they are using 10 iu GH daily. Nope you are not because there is no way you could train with that dose unless you are in the minority of folks that get no sides. No sides? LOL, they are probably on fake "GH". I'm sure there are guys out there using real GH at higher doses without sides I just think its pretty rare. Anyway, I don't mean to derail this but maybe consider a lower dose of GH with built in off days. 2 iu daily with weekends off or maybe 3.3 iu Mon, Wed, Friday only. Skip mentioned 10 iu GH a week. I would say that's an ideal weekly dose for older guys assuming its being stacked with T

I have in recent years dealt with a lot of tendon and ligament pain from training and after a 6 month course of GH it was gone. I missed quite a few inject days during that time so my weekly doses were pretty low. If someone asked me 10 years ago my thoughts on GH would have been more inline with yours.
 

Long story short is: IGF-LR3 does not raise IGF serum blood levels.

But growth hormone does raise IGF levels via synthesis by the liver.

Our IGF levels are at their highest when we are teenagers and in our 20s. By the time we are in our 30s our IGF levels start to diminish.

If the author were correct that IGF causes cancer then the highest cancer rate would be in that age range and it's not. People that are young are the least likely to get cancer while guys like me in their 50s, 60s and most likely to get cancer and we have very little IGF at this age.

I will say that above normal levels of IGF over 300 you are asking for trouble. 250-300 IGF is within normal in my opinion, IGF level of 500 you drive up potential cancer cell production exponentially
 
Last edited:
Long story short is: IGF-LR3 does not raise IGF serum blood levels.

But growth hormone does raise IGF levels via synthesis by the liver.

Our IGF levels are at their highest when we are teenagers and in our 20s. By the time we are in our 30s our IGF levels start to diminish.

If the author were correct that IGF causes cancer then the highest cancer rate would be in that age range and it's not. People that are young are the least likely to get cancer while guys like me in their 50s, 60s and most likely to get cancer and we have very little IGF at this age.

I will say that above normal levels of IGF over 300 you are asking for trouble. 250-300 IGF is within normal in my opinion, IGF level of 500 you drive up potential cancer cell production exponentially
its said that if you have cancer cells in your body that IGF will not only help normal cell but help cancer cells grow and spread too. I have a history of cancer in my family so thats why it concerns me
 
its said that if you have cancer cells in your body that IGF will not only help normal cell but help cancer cells grow and spread too. I have a history of cancer in my family so thats why it concerns me
Elevated igf will increase cancer cell growth.
 
A hormone similar to insulin, IGF-1 is produced throughout life, primarily by the liver. ... In adulthood, however, IGF-1 has been linked to the growth and spread of cancercells. Eating a high-protein diet increases IGF-1 levels, regardless of how many total calories you consume.Jul 5, 2017
 
A hormone similar to insulin, IGF-1 is produced throughout life, primarily by the liver. ... In adulthood, however, IGF-1 has been linked to the growth and spread of cancercells. Eating a high-protein diet increases IGF-1 levels, regardless of how many total calories you consume.Jul 5, 2017

Yes, without IGF nothing would reproduce, IGF is necessary for our very existence.

My baseline IGF was 171 before GH and again was 168 after a 4 month break last year.

Should I try and shut down my IGF because it could spur cancer growth?

Wonder what would happen if I did....
 
IML Gear Cream!
I like the strenght boost from orals give me more motivation and drive. I thought the point of orals like anadrol was not only the strength but the pumps helping you stretch the fascia?

Which fascia?
 
Yes, without IGF nothing would reproduce, IGF is necessary for our very existence.

My baseline IGF was 171 before GH and again was 168 after a 4 month break last year.

Should I try and shut down my IGF because it could spur cancer growth?

Wonder what would happen if I did....

Please don’t experiment with that :)

yeah, so IGF is kind of critical for cell proliferation. Cell proliferation is in turn critical for having things like skin and blood cells and being generally alive. Most of the cells in your body get old and have to be replaced periodically. The replacements are produced by longer-lived cells that do nothing but pump out more cells of specific types (loosely I’ll call these stem cells, though that’s a term that’s widely misunderstood, and there are many types and “levels” of stem cell-ness). Those cells, because they live longer, accumulate mutations in their DNA, which they pass on to their daughter cells. Most of those mutations are totally harmless, but a few can lead to cancer. Anyone who lives sufficiently long will eventually develop cancer(s) as they accumulate more and more of these mutations in their stem cells.

So anything that boosts cell proliferation across the board will naturally be boosting production of cells with mutations that can lead to cancer. When you’re young, those cells represent a lower overall proportion of cells being produced, because your stem cells haven’t been around long enough to accumulate as many mutations. When you’re older, obviously the proportion of potentially precancerous cells is going to be higher. However, you’re still producing totally healthy cells at a much higher rate if you’re boosting cell proliferation, so while the risk is very slightly higher, you’re also receiving some pretty major benefits.

One of the key ways that cells become cancerous is by having mutations that let them act like stem cells, living longer and producing their own daughter cells. The same things that boost cell proliferation in actual stem cells will then boost proliferation in cancer-causing cells.

So IGF doesn’t “cause” cancer so much as it creates conditions under which naturally-occuring cancer-forming cells get a boost at the same time as all your healthy stem cells get a boost. Whether they end up actually causing cancer is largely a matter of luck.

Sooo long story short: there’s a trade-off, but in general the benefits for an older person massively outweigh the risks, so unless you know you have a genetic predisposition to elevated risks of a specific cancer type, it’s probably not worth worrying too much about.
 
Great read Hard Puff- seems this woman knows her shit!!!
 
Question: after supplementing HGH and receiving the “youthful” appearance benefits, such as healthier skin etc...after coming off of the HGH do you lose those benefits along with musculoskeletal gains? If so is it similar to AAS use and discontinued use? Or is it a slow regression back to where you were before you started using HGH? asking for my wife. She is a runner that can’t seem to get rid of the after child birth stomach issues such as the “pouch” and the stretch marks and other assorted atrocities. I remember jersey devil stated his HGH use clear his skin issues up. Easy bruising and “thin” skin that comes from aging. Thanks guys/girls.
 
So IGF doesn’t “cause” cancer so much as it creates conditions under which naturally-occuring cancer-forming cells get a boost at the same time as all your healthy stem cells get a boost. Whether they end up actually causing cancer is largely a matter of luck.
Cliff Notes version. At my age I want to see my IGF-1 under 300.
 
Back
Top