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ART Topic of the Week Nutrient Timing 4/23

Montego

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This week we're going to dive into nutrient timing a bit.

This is a very broad topic to address so please make your questions as detailed as possible so we can get the best answers out there.

When to make adjustments.

When to add carbs.

When to take them out.

Pre /post workout meal timing and macros based on your diet and training.

Bring em on!
 
This week we're going to dive into nutrient timing a bit.

This is a very broad topic to address so please make your questions as detailed as possible so we can get the best answers out there.

When to make adjustments.

When to add carbs.

When to take them out.

Pre /post workout meal timing and macros based on your diet and training.

Bring em on!
Id like to see an elaboration on optimal protein intake per meal, ratios varient upon weight..... nutrient timing and protein are synonymous, so it shouldn't be hard. Also id be interested in overall carb consumption for the day...... and how it varies based off the drugs your taking......sooo "IN A NUTSHELL" what I'm asking is a conservative approximation of previously stated.

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Your body does not store protein so consuming it every 3-4 hrs makes sense. There really isnt an optimal amount per meal as long as you consume your needed amount each day.
Carbs are like the other 2 macros: energy. Your needs for energy are based on your daily activities. It is wise to consume a moderate to high amount of carbs as it not only gives your body energy but it frees up protein from supplying the body's need for energy so it can do the work of repairing your body.
So its not the type of drug but the intensity that the body works at that dictates how much carbohydrate energy you need.
Hope this helps.
 
Regarding carb cycling I see a lot of conflicting opinions. When carb cycling do you guys prefer the approach of keeping caloric consumption steady by offsetting carbs with equal calories from fats it so you prefer the approach where caloric consumption is less on low days? If you do prefer modulating daily caloric consumption, how many calories do you like to differ? For instance, I'm currently carb cycling @ 2500 calories daily and I offset my carbs with fats on my low carb days. I'll bring some more questions up to you guys over the week since I'm going to have a ton of windshield time this week
 
Your body does not store protein so consuming it every 3-4 hrs makes sense. There really isnt an optimal amount per meal as long as you consume your needed amount each day.
Carbs are like the other 2 macros: energy. Your needs for energy are based on your daily activities. It is wise to consume a moderate to high amount of carbs as it not only gives your body energy but it frees up protein from supplying the body's need for energy so it can do the work of repairing your body.
So its not the type of drug but the intensity that the body works at that dictates how much carbohydrate energy you need.
Hope this helps.
Okay, Okay. So how much protein per meal is ‘too much’? I’ve seen answers all over the place for that question. Some saying 30, some saying 150+.

is there a threshold for protein intake per meal?
 
Regarding carb cycling I see a lot of conflicting opinions. When carb cycling do you guys prefer the approach of keeping caloric consumption steady by offsetting carbs with equal calories from fats it so you prefer the approach where caloric consumption is less on low days? If you do prefer modulating daily caloric consumption, how many calories do you like to differ? For instance, I'm currently carb cycling @ 2500 calories daily and I offset my carbs with fats on my low carb days. I'll bring some more questions up to you guys over the week since I'm going to have a ton of windshield time this week
What kind of cycling?

A low, low, low, high cycle or, low moderate high type set up?

I don't think it will change my answer but curious.
 
This is such a great question, but goals will vary.. I personal feel without getting into a winder response..

This depends on the person, sensitivity, goals and so on, merely adjusting macros in either direction can provide drastic results..We have guys here that do intermitten fasting, and dont eat until lunch and stuff their faces there after until bed, or we have guys that eat smaller sized portions, by x 10 a day (thats me) for blood sugar reasons...

Good this topic is great, where to really start??? give me a bit to think of some things on a specific type person just as an example..
 
I'll be soaking this thread up like a sponge as nutrient timing is something I have little knowledge of.
 
I'll be soaking this thread up like a sponge as nutrient timing is something I have little knowledge of.

Same here...I think that is a big part of my problem. Most of my life I did the smaller meals x6 a day and never got the results I wanted.

So watching this thread as well.
 
Okay, Okay. So how much protein per meal is ‘too much’? I’ve seen answers all over the place for that question. Some saying 30, some saying 150+.

is there a threshold for protein intake per meal?

I’d be interested to know this too. I see so many things out there or bros in the gym talking about how your body can’t absorb more than 50g of protein at a time or some random figure that they throw out there.


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Not to hijack the thread with my ovaries, but:
I know some of you guys have trained women. I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether nutrient timing has different effects for women, or if we can generally do the same shit as the dudes. Carb cycling in particular seems like it has the potential to affect women quite differently, so I’ve been curious about this.
 
Great thread! I'd like to know your thoughts on the "anabolic window" post workout. What's the consensus on consuming protein and carbs after your workout and how much of each?
 
Okay, Okay. So how much protein per meal is ‘too much’? I’ve seen answers all over the place for that question. Some saying 30, some saying 150+.

is there a threshold for protein intake per meal?

You should be more interested in how efficiently your body orocesses protein over a longer period of time rather than each meal.

Protein contains 16% nitrogen per gram. The answer to your question would be to examine how much nitrogen is excreted by your body. The lower the amount, the more nitrogen (and protein overall) your body utilizes. This can be seen in the BUN or UUN test which is included on many blood tests. Check the range and if you are outside the upper end you are consuming too much. Adjust accordingly. Each person will metabolize protein differently. Steroids increase the efficiency of protein metabolism so an argument can be made that you can consume less while on. But always refer to the tests to remove guess work.
 
Great thread! I'd like to know your thoughts on the "anabolic window" post workout. What's the consensus on consuming protein and carbs after your workout and how much of each?

The body is in an anabolic state for up to 36hrs after moderate to intense exercise partially because exercise illicits an insulin like effect which improves nutrient uptake to muscle cells.
20 gms of protein (if my memory is correct) is beneficial to stimulating (quicker than normal) the anabolic process of muscle repair.
As for carbs, you need to replenish what you lost.
The liver holds around 75 grams of glycogen while your muscles hold around 500.
So if your workout is aerobic, you will be drawing mainly from your liver for glycogen and if it is anaerobic you will be using muscle glycogen. It will depend on the intensity of your workout as to how many carbs to consume. It is better to consume your post workout carbs in increments rather than one huge amount to limit fat storage. Maybe a couple hours apart. How much? As much as needed to bring your body back to normal (homeostasis) and supply your energy needs. This takes some experimenting but a rough range can be 50 - 100gms PO. After heavy deadlifts or vigorous cardio it can take almost 300 gms for me to completely recover.
 
Not to hijack the thread with my ovaries, but:
I know some of you guys have trained women. I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether nutrient timing has different effects for women, or if we can generally do the same shit as the dudes. Carb cycling in particular seems like it has the potential to affect women quite differently, so I’ve been curious about this.

I dont have a vagina but physiology is physiology. The only difference would be amount of muscle. As for carb cycling, women carry more weight on their hips so it may be more effective to not carb cycle but go low/no carb to increase the amount of time you are not consuming them.
Hope this helps.
 
Ok, in regards to nutrient timing, I have been experiencing sides and haven't been able to pin point what the problem is. I feel hypoglycemic pretty much all day whether I train the day or not, blood panel showed no signs of diabetes I have been told when eating an amount of sugar my body produces more insulin than is needed and after the insulin does its job there is still too much insulin in my blood. How can I stop this from happening? Is this a cause of not eating enough carbs, starches, or something I'm unaware of? my diet is relatively clean, water, Metamucil, kratom and coffee, lots of caffeine, I prefer not to eat too much before the gym as it hinders my workouts. usually just a banana and protein bar 30 minutes before my workout and after words, depending on how much time I have I throw in another protein bar or I will eat a chicken and rice dish. Do any of you guys/girls battle hypoglycemia and know what to do?
 
Oldschool has contributed some good info thus far, and based on his feedback, which I agree with, it appears to me that nutrient timing is less important than supplying your body with the necessary macros consistently over a long period of time. Hypertrophy is a marathon not a sprint. In my opinion your body is not going to catabolize muscle because you didn't eat the right amount of carbs at the right time, or consume your post workout shake within an hour of training...I'm just using these as a couple examples of the many theories out there regarding bodybuilding nutrition. I used to be a prisoner to my diet in my younger years, meals spaced out every 2-3 hours making sure I got in 6 everyday, 2 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight, very strict on my daily caloric intake, etc...I would miss out on experiencing life and doing things because I knew I had to eat at a certain time. I was miserable. I don't don't let my meals hold me hostage anymore, I eat when I have time, and I can't say that my physique has suffered any because of this. I realize that for a competitive bodybuilder there may be benefits to nutrient timing when trying to achieve that level of body composition, but for us average gym rats, I think we make it more scientific than it needs to be. Just my .02 cents.

Wish HughJassol was here to provide his views on this...
 
Ok, in regards to nutrient timing, I have been experiencing sides and haven't been able to pin point what the problem is. I feel hypoglycemic pretty much all day whether I train the day or not, blood panel showed no signs of diabetes I have been told when eating an amount of sugar my body produces more insulin than is needed and after the insulin does its job there is still too much insulin in my blood. How can I stop this from happening? Is this a cause of not eating enough carbs, starches, or something I'm unaware of? my diet is relatively clean, water, Metamucil, kratom and coffee, lots of caffeine, I prefer not to eat too much before the gym as it hinders my workouts. usually just a banana and protein bar 30 minutes before my workout and after words, depending on how much time I have I throw in another protein bar or I will eat a chicken and rice dish. Do any of you guys/girls battle hypoglycemia and know what to do?

The symptoms you are describing sound like diabetes to me. Your pancreas supplies insulin mainly in response to carbohydrates and if there is too much insulin it produces another hormone called glucagon to bring your blood sugar back to a normal level. I had these same symptoms when I was on a certain medication for diabetes and my doctor took me off that medication and it disappeared. He attributed the problem to too much muscle mass (and fat loss which corrected my insulin resistance). So I would strongly urge you to see your doc. Diabetes sucks Brother!
 
Oldschool has contributed some good info thus far, and based on his feedback, which I agree with, it appears to me that nutrient timing is less important than supplying your body with the necessary macros consistently over a long period of time. Hypertrophy is a marathon not a sprint. In my opinion your body is not going to catabolize muscle because you didn't eat the right amount of carbs at the right time, or consume your post workout shake within an hour of training...I'm just using these as a couple examples of the many theories out there regarding bodybuilding nutrition. I used to be a prisoner to my diet in my younger years, meals spaced out every 2-3 hours making sure I got in 6 everyday, 2 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight, very strict on my daily caloric intake, etc...I would miss out on experiencing life and doing things because I knew I had to eat at a certain time. I was miserable. I don't don't let my meals hold me hostage anymore, I eat when I have time, and I can't say that my physique has suffered any because of this. I realize that for a competitive bodybuilder there may be benefits to nutrient timing when trying to achieve that level of body composition, but for us average gym rats, I think we make it more scientific than it needs to be. Just my .02 cents.

Wish HughJassol was here to provide his views on this...

Thank you.
As for nutrient timing I think understanding that there is general nutrition, which is supplying the body with the proper nutrients for growth, repair and absence of decease - and then there is the area of sports nutrition which adds amounts and timing of certain nutrients into the mix.
Some examples of timing for an athlete:
1. Pre competition - fueling the body prior to activities.
2. During competition - fueling the body during activities.
3. Post competition - fueling the body for recovery.
In GENERAL, carbohydrates for fuel - protein for recovery.

I think a lot of the confusion over "nutrient timing" is that it is seen as some magical mysterious method as the secret to building huge muscles.
 
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I dont have a vagina but physiology is physiology. The only difference would be amount of muscle. As for carb cycling, women carry more weight on their hips so it may be more effective to not carb cycle but go low/no carb to increase the amount of time you are not consuming them.
Hope this helps.

This is kind of what I was thinking - with our higher propensity for fat storage (especially while in a deficit), it would seem like carb cycling might be more likely to simply ensure we re-deposit as much as possible.
 
Old school- I had blood panel (fasted) done and no sign of diabetes. I can’t figure it out other than at the time when it started my test was crashed (27 ng/dL). Maybe long term kratom use could attribute to this? I also drink Metamucil 2x daily. It sucks feeling like shit everyday. Healthcare providers are a joke, literally theives! So I’ve been running TRT @ 100mg a week of cyp split in two doses(50mg tues-50mg sat) however the hypoglycemic conditions are still persistent and now for the past few weeks at night when trying to sleep I feel my heart “flutter”, I’m not sure if it’s anxiety, over exhaustion or A-Fib. I had an endo appt this Friday and they literally just cancelled it saying I need more blood work because test levels are lowest at 8am and they took my blood at 10am 3 fucking months ago. So I called them back and called them out on there bullshit. I’m so fucking frustrated with this whole thing. I’m tired of feeling like shit. Can’t do the private online blood lab because of the state I live is retarded. I don’t know what to do at this point. Sorry about the rant, just pissed off at life right now.
 
When I am having problems I log my blood sugar readings and what I eat, how I feel, etc. You need a meter, pins and test strips to do that. My doctor then gets a better idea of whats going on. The best thing I ever did for my healthcare was to switch from the VA to a private doctor thanks to insurance through my wife's job. (Much better than the union too). I really feel for you Brother, I know how it is to feel like shit.
 
I do a low-high only, I'm not doing moderate days
So yes and no.....

I'll normally suggest a week or two of very low carbs to start a carb cycle.

I then start calories pretty equal on high and low days. I'll use a 3-4 day low period with higher fats followed by a high day. Two things come into play here.

One, you are resetting insulin sensitivity with that first week and somewhat maintaining it during the low days.

Second, when you do load, you're increasing thyroid output from the big spike in carbs. This is why so many people talk about sweats and heat when they do get their load days. Also you're resetting leptin levels and other hormones that lead to "stalling".

When i adjust my macros as fat loss slows. I don't typically reduce overall calories unless I'm getting very very lean where I have to. What I do is, slowly take fats out and increase my load days. So instead of a 400g load day to start with 150g of fats on my no carb days, it'll go to something like 120g fats in low days and 500g carbs on load days.

The number of days between high and low will shift as well. Calories stay the same but, I'll add an extra low day before my load. It all depends on how progress goes.

So in short. Yes. I do swap them out but, reverse of what you suggested to keep inducing as much of a response on hormone levels as possible.
 
Old school- I had blood panel (fasted) done and no sign of diabetes. I can’t figure it out other than at the time when it started my test was crashed (27 ng/dL). Maybe long term kratom use could attribute to this? I also drink Metamucil 2x daily. It sucks feeling like shit everyday. Healthcare providers are a joke, literally theives! So I’ve been running TRT @ 100mg a week of cyp split in two doses(50mg tues-50mg sat) however the hypoglycemic conditions are still persistent and now for the past few weeks at night when trying to sleep I feel my heart “flutter”, I’m not sure if it’s anxiety, over exhaustion or A-Fib. I had an endo appt this Friday and they literally just cancelled it saying I need more blood work because test levels are lowest at 8am and they took my blood at 10am 3 fucking months ago. So I called them back and called them out on there bullshit. I’m so fucking frustrated with this whole thing. I’m tired of feeling like shit. Can’t do the private online blood lab because of the state I live is retarded. I don’t know what to do at this point. Sorry about the rant, just pissed off at life right now.

I would almost swear you're trolling with some of these questions.

I'm not on the list to to give advice on these threads but I've got to state the obvious here, just in case no one else points out it. SCALE BACK THE STIMS. Hypo symptoms, heart fluttering, anxiety, etc. All symptoms of too much caffeine. That on top of low test is probably causing the anxiety. Scale the stims back and manage the kratom dose and get yourself healthy.
 
Oldschool has contributed some good info thus far, and based on his feedback, which I agree with, it appears to me that nutrient timing is less important than supplying your body with the necessary macros consistently over a long period of time. Hypertrophy is a marathon not a sprint. In my opinion your body is not going to catabolize muscle because you didn't eat the right amount of carbs at the right time, or consume your post workout shake within an hour of training...I'm just using these as a couple examples of the many theories out there regarding bodybuilding nutrition. I used to be a prisoner to my diet in my younger years, meals spaced out every 2-3 hours making sure I got in 6 everyday, 2 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight, very strict on my daily caloric intake, etc...I would miss out on experiencing life and doing things because I knew I had to eat at a certain time. I was miserable. I don't don't let my meals hold me hostage anymore, I eat when I have time, and I can't say that my physique has suffered any because of this. I realize that for a competitive bodybuilder there may be benefits to nutrient timing when trying to achieve that level of body composition, but for us average gym rats, I think we make it more scientific than it needs to be. Just my .02 cents.

Wish HughJassol was here to provide his views on this...
I agree. Consistency over time always leads to progress.

Maximizing that consistency though leads to even greater changes and for some, like myself, can take you up a notch or two.

Timing nutrients over the last couple years has lead to more changes in my physique then constant dieting did for five. This is why Good coaches are worth the money imo. If eating the same thing any time of day worked perfectly, they wouldn't be as valuable as they are but, knowing when and what foods to place at certain times of the day makes a world of difference.

I would argue, if I ate the same things I do now, but at different times, I would simply get fat.
 
currently cutting, i will give this a try

low / no carbs for 3 days , then load on 4th day w 250-300g crabs.

6'1" , 210lbs , 36yrs , 14% bf
 
So yes and no.....

I'll normally suggest a week or two of very low carbs to start a carb cycle.

I then start calories pretty equal on high and low days. I'll use a 3-4 day low period with higher fats followed by a high day. Two things come into play here.

One, you are resetting insulin sensitivity with that first week and somewhat maintaining it during the low days.

Second, when you do load, you're increasing thyroid output from the big spike in carbs. This is why so many people talk about sweats and heat when they do get their load days. Also you're resetting leptin levels and other hormones that lead to "stalling".

When i adjust my macros as fat loss slows. I don't typically reduce overall calories unless I'm getting very very lean where I have to. What I do is, slowly take fats out and increase my load days. So instead of a 400g load day to start with 150g of fats on my no carb days, it'll go to something like 120g fats in low days and 500g carbs on load days.

The number of days between high and low will shift as well. Calories stay the same but, I'll add an extra low day before my load. It all depends on how progress goes.

So in short. Yes. I do swap them out but, reverse of what you suggested to keep inducing as much of a response on hormone levels as possible.

So correct me if I'm wrong, it seems your goal in the above is to keep your body confused?

What is your typical carb intake on your "low" days?
What's your typical fat intake on "load" days? or do you even bother to track it?

After hearing you break this down in more detail, it appears I may already be doing something kind of similar already, but I'm only allowing myself one load day (24 hours) per week, and I haven't been consciously manipulating my fats like you are. I'm going to start by adding another load day and bump up my fat intake to 150g on my low carb days and see what happens. Does it sound like I'm on the right track here?

Good shit, Monte!
 
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