Anabolic Round Table Q&A

Oldschool said:

OR....
Create a forum/sub forum exclusively for this great project. My $.02

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Good idea.


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Anabolic Round Table Q&A

Phill said:

I would have a question to which I have always received uncertain answers, doubtful and restrictive.
the question is obviously addressed to a HUGE person.
The question is simple: kcal/day and steroids and dosages.
I am not huge and I am not genetically predisposed, but some people say they become so BIG with 500 mg of testosterone a week... he frankly stewed me.

I would like to hear real people for once that really speaks of actual dosages to grow and not just to give the kids the recommendation to start.
Let's see if this magic number of 500 still appears on this thread

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There are many variables to address in this area, a simple number is going to be difficult to come up with.
First, the 500mg test dose is a starting suggestion that allows you to access your reaction to exogenous hormone. It will most certainly push you way above range and give you an opportunity to grow. I notice physical changes at that level albeit not super human, but yes, growth.
Being predisposed to a smaller frame is a factor, to a point. I know at least one member on here who through proper diet on a TRT dose, has made impressive gains, and he’s similarly built. I’m a very large framed person by comparison and haven’t always achieved what he’s done, even when I’m on a big dose.
Another thing to understand is that no two people react to AAS the same way. I am a low responder to many compounds, I simply don’t blow up like some guys do. For me it’s a long buildup to get a large response.

I always tell guys to evaluate what results you have gotten at the 8 week mark and adjust. It could be as simple as that for you.
Don’t be afraid to experiment, it’s half the fun.


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Phill said:

I would have a question to which I have always received uncertain answers, doubtful and restrictive.
the question is obviously addressed to a HUGE person.
The question is simple: kcal/day and steroids and dosages.
I am not huge and I am not genetically predisposed, but some people say they become so BIG with 500 mg of testosterone a week... he frankly stewed me.

I would like to hear real people for once that really speaks of actual dosages to grow and not just to give the kids the recommendation to start.
Let's see if this magic number of 500 still appears on this thread

Click to expand...

My friend if an IFBB pro in open bodybuilding. He got there running 2 cycles a year of 500mg of test a week. He did this for 3yrs and came completely off between cycles. So in short the answer is absolutely someone can become a pro bodybuilder running only 500mg test. Now some of his off season cycles were test only, others leading up to a show he would run tren but never over 400 a week. He also runs anadrol at 50mg a day or 50mg eod. Winstrol 50mg ed. All low doses. He's currently getting ready for his first show as a pro and running 800mg test, 500 deca, 50mg drol eod, 3iu hgh 5x week. tren2k helped him with cycle layout for this show and wanted him to take it up a notch or two on the AAS. He's still not running everything as high as tren2k wanted him, hes got limited funds.

Phill said:

I would have a question to which I have always received uncertain answers, doubtful and restrictive.
the question is obviously addressed to a HUGE person.
The question is simple: kcal/day and steroids and dosages.
I am not huge and I am not genetically predisposed, but some people say they become so BIG with 500 mg of testosterone a week... he frankly stewed me.

I would like to hear real people for once that really speaks of actual dosages to grow and not just to give the kids the recommendation to start.
Let's see if this magic number of 500 still appears on this thread

Click to expand...

Genetics will skew the numbers big time. Some guys just have more AR's and less Myostatin so they will respond better to drugs. When a pro states he was on a gram a week the responses to him are often disbelief. Keep in mind a pro might be in the top 1% in the world as far as genetics. Lee Priest always talked about moderate dosages of AAS and low doses of rHGH. Then some know it all kid chimes in that he knows a friend of Lee and Lee is really on 10 grams a week. LOL.

I personally have written cycles for national level guys and pros. Some of the responses back from them are very interesting. Recently one 300 lb beast told me he felt off on 1,200 mg T weekly so he wanted to keep his T under a gram. We opted for 900 mg T per week. He's also stacking 400 mg Deca, 3.3 iu rHGH and Adex daily. Compare what some sub 200 lb guy on the forum is taking and it puts things into perspective. As he gets closer to the show I will change compounds and push doses higher but we will never exceed 3 grams total AAS per week. These guys have great genetics and usually they don't have a ton of money so I have also had guys just flat out tell me they can't afford a big cycle.

As far as first cycles we have solid science for 600 mg TE or Cyp weekly. In the study they ran 20 weeks so apparently the scientists did not feel that duration and dose was unsafe or unethical. If a guy had bad genetics I could see pushing that to 750 mg T weekly. My first cycle was quite a bit higher but over the years I have felt my sweet spot is somewhere between 800 - 1,200 mg T weekly. If you cannot grow on doses in this range something is wrong. Diet or training would need to be reevaluated. As far as cals if you are putting on size you will need to be in a surplus. 500 cals over maintenance is a general rule of thumb but much more than that will likely cause unwanted increased fat mass. However some guys can get away with it. Also some drug combos allow for big eating.

This is a great question which was answered nicely from many vets. After 20 years of use, I've come to the conclusion that everyone metabolizes anabolics differently due to genetic makeup and just generally how their body responds to exogenous hormones. Can someone get jacked on 500mg of Test per week..absolutely. Can someone get jacked on 250mg of Test per week....absolutely. Of course, everyone has a different definition of "Jacked". Much can be said for the benefits of a clean,protein rich diet coupled with limited alcohol and drug use. Beneficial sleep and low levels of stress will also play a significant role in how one responds to anabolics. My two cents


QUOTE=Phill;1384177]I would have a question to which I have always received uncertain answers, doubtful and restrictive.
the question is obviously addressed to a HUGE person.
The question is simple: kcal/day and steroids and dosages.
I am not huge and I am not genetically predisposed, but some people say they become so BIG with 500 mg of testosterone a week... he frankly stewed me.

I would like to hear real people for once that really speaks of actual dosages to grow and not just to give the kids the recommendation to start.
Let's see if this magic number of 500 still appears on this thread[/QUOTE]

Fucking love this thread.

Oh btw.

I can't make sub forums or, I would have done that....

Maybe mention it to Heavy and Arnold

Great idea bro...very well thought out. Oh how I wish I had these resources back in my 20's

Montego1 said:

Fucking love this thread.

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I’m a big fan of high doses but in time you have to start out somewhere. Also guys like me that have been on gear longer have more androgen receptors. There is no magic number or magic combination besides hgh and slin. Slin should not be used without proper knowledge and I’m not talking a hour of studying i looked into it for a year and got with my dr before touching it so I under stood the ins and outs of it before use.


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Unless you are going to compete at a national level or higher slin should not be a option too.


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Montego1 said:

Fucking love this thread.

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ldog said:

Great idea bro...very well thought out. Oh how I wish I had these resources back in my 20's

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Yeah this is fantastic. Asf needed something like this to get us back on track and thinking straight. Keep the train from jumping the tracks type scenario. I like where this is heading. I apprciate the knowledge and willingness from you guys to do this for us.

The kudos and thanks go to Monte. I'm just speaking from 20 years of trial and error

TripleOvertime said:

Yeah this is fantastic. Asf needed something like this to get us back on track and thinking straight. Keep the train from jumping the tracks type scenario. I like where this is heading. I apprciate the knowledge and willingness from you guys to do this for us.

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ldog said:

Great idea bro...very well thought out. Oh how I wish I had these resources back in my 20's

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I agree brother, lotta trial and error not to mention wasted gear.

Thank you Monte for giving this place something exciting in a good way.


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ldog said:

Great idea bro...very well thought out. Oh how I wish I had these resources back in my 20's

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Info on AAS was hard to come by in the late 80s and early 90s when there was no internet. I was buying all the books and peridicals I could find.
Any u guys remember this.

My question. How many of the quad muscles can you pin? I know the main one(can't name it). Is there nerve issues in the other muscles in the quad, or are they okay to pin. Never really heard much about this.

REHH said:

Info on AAS was hard to come by in the late 80s and early 90s when there was no internet. I was buying all the books and peridicals I could find.
Any u guys remember this.

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Damn camera on this S9 wants to post everything sideways. First time posting pics with new phone.

dawg16 said:

My question. How many of the quad muscles can you pin? I know the main one(can't name it). Is there nerve issues in the other muscles in the quad, or are they okay to pin. Never really heard much about this.

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Ive pinned most all, the worst pin ive ever had in quads was from Vastus Medialius where I hit big nerve or tendon, this was back in early 90s and i was using 1-1.5 23g pins. Nowadays I stay in the upper half of quads and more towards the front with 5/8-1" 25g. I hit the small muscles way up top too, Sartorious and Tensor Fasciea and others.

Edit... looks like phone needs to be turned sideways to make pic face up.

REHH said:

Ive pinned most all, the worst pin ive ever had in quads was from Vastus Medialius where I hit big nerve or tendon, this was back in early 90s and i was using 1-1.5 23g pins. Nowadays I stay in the upper half of quads and more towards the front with 5/8-1" 25g. I hit the small muscles way up top too, Sartorious and Tensor Fasciea and others.

Edit... looks like phone needs to be turned sideways to make pic face up.

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Thanks...much appreciated!

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Good question. I don't pin my quads that much....maybe once every 2 weeks. When I do pin quads, it's typically in the middle to upper quadrant of the thigh. Let me tell you...and I'm sure your well aware...when you pin a quad wrong...it's no joke. I much prefer delts, glutes and sub q. 25 5/8 is my go to.


QUOTE=dawg16;1384403]My question. How many of the quad muscles can you pin? I know the main one(can't name it). Is there nerve issues in the other muscles in the quad, or are they okay to pin. Never really heard much about this.[/QUOTE]

Here is a question....

WTF are macros. lol.

I mean, designing a diet around macros. I know a calorie isn't just a calorie and simply "dieting" won't get me where I want. I tried.

I am at 230 and probably 15% bf. At 5'11".

Never had abs and doubting it will ever happen for me. I know my diet isn't "spot on" so not going to bullshit.

Train 4 days a week. Usually jog 20 minutes for 2 miles after each. So doing some cardio.

For me? Getting down to 10% would be a success story.

Augustine5I said:

Here is a question....

WTF are macros. lol.

I mean, designing a diet around macros. I know a calorie isn't just a calorie and simply "dieting" won't get me where I want. I tried.

I am at 230 and probably 15% bf. At 5'11".

Never had abs and doubting it will ever happen for me. I know my diet isn't "spot on" so not going to bullshit.

Train 4 days a week. Usually jog 20 minutes for 2 miles after each. So doing some cardio.

For me? Getting down to 10% would be a success story.

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I like this question but, need you to expand on what you wanna know......

I bet @oldschool will slay this one.

Question: Sub q refers to subcutaneous layer between skin and muscle, right? What AAS can be injected, sub q, and still be effective? I know HGH isn’t considered an AAS. I definitely want to know more about HGH. Especially it’s effect on insulin, i used to be really interested but it seems to be much more involved and I’m definitely not ready for it, just curious about the sub q thing as I hear it a lot and thought AAS had to be injected intramuscular. Thanks

Milford King said:

Question: Sub q refers to subcutaneous layer between skin and muscle, right? What AAS can be injected, sub q, and still be effective? I know HGH isn’t considered an AAS. I definitely want to know more about HGH. Especially it’s effect on insulin, i used to be really interested but it seems to be much more involved and I’m definitely not ready for it, just curious about the sub q thing as I hear it a lot and thought AAS had to be injected intramuscular. Thanks

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@sherk
@heavyiron

Either of you guys wanna take a crack at this one?

Montego1 said:

@sherk
@heavyiron

Either of you guys wanna take a crack at this one?

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I'm not vetted in but I'm pretty sure that Emeric (former IFBB pro) has discussed this topic of subcutaneous injecting. I have been reading his thread for years at pro.

I'll add my two cents on subq. I've experimented with various compounds using this method. In my experience, it's only good for long ester products. Trust me...I tried Prop both in Test and Mast and it hurt really bad. The absorption rate is somewhat slower but it still works fine for someone on TRT. As for someone running a cycle, it probably isn't the best option although I would pin IM and subq at the same time and was very happy with the results. I've pinned abs subq, my small love handles and upper gluteus. You really just need to experiment and get bloodwork to determine your personal success rate. I will also add that subq injections can help mitigate the quick rise of E2 unlike IM injections. The most I pin subq in one location is 2ml. Currently, I'm running 600mg of Primo all subq.
L

Milford King said:

Question: Sub q refers to subcutaneous layer between skin and muscle, right? What AAS can be injected, sub q, and still be effective? I know HGH isn’t considered an AAS. I definitely want to know more about HGH. Especially it’s effect on insulin, i used to be really interested but it seems to be much more involved and I’m definitely not ready for it, just curious about the sub q thing as I hear it a lot and thought AAS had to be injected intramuscular. Thanks

Click to expand...

Milford King said:

Question: Sub q refers to subcutaneous layer between skin and muscle, right? What AAS can be injected, sub q, and still be effective? I know HGH isn’t considered an AAS. I definitely want to know more about HGH. Especially it’s effect on insulin, i used to be really interested but it seems to be much more involved and I’m definitely not ready for it, just curious about the sub q thing as I hear it a lot and thought AAS had to be injected intramuscular. Thanks

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Pretty much any AAS can be injected subq as long as it flows through a smaller gauge needle, Quite a few years ago I started a log and experimented with Cyp, Prop, Tren Ace and other compounds injecting them subq. However I quickly found out that higher volumes of certain esters were painful the next day. I preferred subq injects of 1/2 ml or less otherwise it would feel like a bee sting the next day. Tren Ace was interesting because I never had Tren cough when injecting it subq. Around the time I was experimenting with injecting Cyp there were only 2 studies I knew of on the procedure. Since then we have solid evidence that subq injects work to raise blood androgen levels although onset of action may be delayed.

Here's my old 2009 log and an early abstract http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/threads/104521-Subcutaneous-testosterone-injections

Here's a newer study that came out years after my logs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4721027/

Sex Med. 2015 Dec; 3(4): 269–279.
Published online 2015 Sep 17. doi: 10.1002/sm2.80

PMID: 2679706​

Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single‐Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study

Jed Kaminetsky, MD, 1 Jonathan S. Jaffe, MD,

2 and Ronald S. Swerdloff, MD 3

Go to:​

Abstract

Introduction

Hypogonadism is one of the most common male endocrine problems. Although many treatments are currently available, unmet need exists for new testosterone (T) replacement therapies that are simple to administer and use, are safe, and mimic physiologic T levels.

Aim

The study aim was to determine the pharmacokinetics (PK), safety, and tolerability of T enanthate (TE) administered via a novel single‐use autoinjector system, which was designed to eject high‐viscosity solutions from a prefilled syringe fitted with a five‐eighths‐inch 27‐gauge needle.

Methods

Thirty‐nine men with hypogonadism entered this dose‐finding, open‐label, parallel‐group study. Patients were washed out of their topical T regimens and randomized to receive 50 or 100 mg of subcutaneous (SC) TE weekly. The reference group were patients with hypogonadism who were maintained on standard 200‐mg intramuscular (IM) TE.

Main Outcome Measure

The primary outcome measure was the PK profile of SC TE, analyzed in reference to T levels used by the Food and Drug Administration to approve T products. Secondary outcome measures were safety and tolerability assessments.

Results

Both doses of SC TE achieved normal average concentrations of serum T within a 168‐h dosing interval after injection. Concentration ranges were similar at all time points following 50‐mg SC TE injections and following the third injection in the 100‐mg arm. Mean steady‐state T concentration at week 6 was 422.4 and 895.5 ng/dL for the 50‐ and 100‐mg SC TE arms, respectively. SC TE demonstrated PK dose proportionality. SC TE restored normal serum T with low variation relative to 200‐mg IM without clinically significant adverse events.

Conclusions
Administration of TE via this novel injection system restored T levels to normal range in men with hypogonadism. SC TE dosed weekly demonstrated steady, dose‐proportional measures of exposure and was well‐tolerated

wow....thanks a ton! learn something new everyday. Appreciate you guys!!

ldog said:

I'll add my two cents on subq. I've experimented with various compounds using this method. In my experience, it's only good for long ester products. Trust me...I tried Prop both in Test and Mast and it hurt really bad. The absorption rate is somewhat slower but it still works fine for someone on TRT. As for someone running a cycle, it probably isn't the best option although I would pin IM and subq at the same time and was very happy with the results. I've pinned abs subq, my small love handles and upper gluteus. You really just need to experiment and get bloodwork to determine your personal success rate. I will also add that subq injections can help mitigate the quick rise of E2 unlike IM injections. The most I pin subq in one location is 2ml. Currently, I'm running 600mg of Primo all subq.
L

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You pin 2ml sub-q at one time? What locations? So I can assume if I wanted to add some Tren ace on top of my Tren e without having to increase the volume going im..... I could just say.... pin 1/2ml in the ab maybe on workout days?

Ryu7 said:

You pin 2ml sub-q at one time? What locations? So I can assume if I wanted to add some Tren ace on top of my Tren e without having to increase the volume going im..... I could just say.... pin 1/2ml in the ab maybe on workout days?

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If I were looking for a preworkout bump of Tren it would be base not Ace. The half life’s are quite a bit different and Ace is too long of an ester to do what you described.


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tommygunz said:

If I were looking for a preworkout bump of Tren it would be base not Ace. The half life’s are quite a bit different and Ace is too long of an ester to do what you described.


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Not really looking for a true pre workout though, just the faster acting ester, if I did say.... 50mg on training days it would put an extra 250-300 mg in me per week.