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I got this posted on an ifbb pro's blog..... interesting read
Lots of people asking for my take on HGH after posting Bradley and Furions reports below so here goes.... Schembrahs Bro Science report on HGH
1. First up the fact that Pros are so big nowadays it must be the GH what else could it be??
Why are Professional BB's getting bigger and bigger?
Its almost impossible to pick out one single cause as to why BB's are walking on stage like monsters but some of the main points to consider include:
- Full time sponsorships for the top Pros that allow them to just train
-they get paid to just train actually and not much else apart from some appearances and photoshoots
-they have meal company sponsors so no cooking needed
-they have supplement sponsors
-they have a team of health professionals looking after all their injuries and preventing more from occurring
-they are able to sleep as much as they want
-they look after their gut health, this is a HUGE difference to past generations of BB's
- they employ advanced training techniques as they are discovered with elite coaching crews, think Oxygen Gym, Kuwait
-they use high tech pieces of training equipment invented almost daily allowing them to train like never before
This list goes on as to why they are getting so big....... but wait it must be the HGH right?
2. Cheap underground Chinese HGH
Now I know this is going to hurt a lot of people to hear this who have forked their hard earned cash over for their Blue tops, Yellow tops, Brown tops, Rainbow coloured fairy tops the list goes on.
But let us put the murky world of Chinese underground HGH into perspective.
- Its manufacturing is completely unregulated, ungoverned and down right dodgy
- It is completely untraceable back to its point of origin so they have no concerns of retribution over a bad product made and sold
- the manufactures want you to get maximum results as quickly as possible, max results being fluid retention.
So realistically it will contains cheap products like GHRP, HCG and who knows what else that will ensure you put on fluid quickly and tell all your mates about how good it was.
Now it is also going to contain some filler, what the hell is in that filler is anyones guess.
Do you think the underground Chinese labs or even the backyard labs anywhere in the world are using a 99% Pharma grade product?
What are you exactly putting into your body??
When you get a red welt do you wonder what the hell have I just put in my body?
Do the numbers 192 have any meaning to you when it comes down to what you are putting in your body?
I too used to believe in these kits but sadly no they are all a waste of time
3. Pharma Grade HGH
I was able to use Pharma Grade HGH under the guidance of a doctor a couple of years ago now. Purchased straight from a Pharmacy on Script and with regular blood work to monitor.
I too thought it was the Holy Grail of building muscle when it come to bodybuilding, however I experienced only the following:
- massive fluid retention
- a back pocket that kept getting lighter and lighter
- a midsection that started growing
The amount of fluid I put on, money I spent and belt sizes I went up freaked me out enough to stop my HGH scripts and move away from HGH use forever.
My midsection GREW but it wasn't permanent thankfully.
These are my experiences and I always try to keep things real
I have no ulterior motives and will make no financial gains by saying this.
I am just trying to save anyone out there who wants to listen some hard earned cash.
I am a fan of MK677 for increasing IGF levels I do believe you can purchase online legally for personal research under the guidance of a Doctor.
Brad's response to some of the feedback he received from everybody regarding his report on HGH and Bodybuilding
Brads initial report is a few posts below, just under Furions breakdown of HGH
Bradley Clarke
Master of Human Factors Engineering and Health Science
DipAppSci;AdvDipEnv;AdvDipBus;GradCertForensInv;MESH;MA; MSIA;MHFESA
Scientific Investigator and Performance Chemist
It would be fair to say that I am old school and would prefer to go Chat Board over FB because it lasts longer. But here we are so I will respond in part as we go to keep the answers congruent with the questions and interesting for people who do not have an opinion or so you can come back with better material.
By the look of some comments I may have been mistaken to have said one does not need growth hormone and or that growth hormone has no value as a pharmacological intervention for disease. This is not what I meant to convey. An above average growth hormone level may confer some advantages to a low level for day to day operation and healing although for the emerging evidence, even this might not be the case. In a 2003 report Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians? from the American Association for the Advancement of Science I quote:
GH treatment can increase body mass and decrease adipose tissue in 61- to 81-year-old men with low plasma IGF-I concentration, and long-term GH replacement therapy causes some improvements in patients with GH deficiencies. However, the "antiaging" effects of GH therapy are typically observed after short-term treatment of patients with low plasma GH. By contrast, chronically high GH levels increase the incidence of diseases, including cancer and kidney diseases in rodents, and increase cardiovascular diseases and cancer in human acromegaly patients. GH administration also increases the development of diabetes and glucose intolerance in healthy, older women and men and increases morbidity and mortality in patients that are clinically ill, even after short-term treatment). It is clear that a major and chronic increase in plasma GH/IGF-I levels increases morbidity and mortality.[1]
My intention was not really to argue about life extension however one of my bug bears is the sale of goods which do not work to people who do not need them; a consumer advocate if you will. 90% of bodybuilders will never walk on stage with Luke, do not have the genetics, time to train, funds to supplement. Where is your dollar best put? I can only speak to the published trials.
Consider a 6 month program (which I haven’t found any studies in athletes going that long to answer one question) at 10iu per day. Let’s assume growth hormone is $10 at iu. That’s $100 per day for 185 days; $18,500. That is a serious investment. Short term administration at 16iu had no real BB effect (unless you sprint) over 28 days. This should be our starting point. Not Broscience, actual controlled studies with a placebo group. At 16iu for six months the bill is $29,600. For reference that is a bottle of red wine and 4kg of steak a day for six months. The critical point here is the WADA study found that over 28 days the lean mass accretion was attributable to extracellular water weight. I am happy to entertain that over a longer period some genes may be expressed at a greater level (Furion has suggested some) but in the long term trials soon to be discussed, there was no evidence of this, at least at 2.4iu/day.
It has been suggested that there are thousands of studies saying I am wrong. This is not the case but I concede that there are studies which do support the alternative. When one cites a study you should look at various key attributes beyond the title and abstract. I always do a quick search of the authors and whether the institute is funded and by who. Especially when forming legal arguments. This is why-
A number of links were attached by one reader who disagrees with my assertions. I like being disagreed with and hope to even change my mind. But these studies are not the ones to convince me of a number of key points to my argument:
1. Growth hormone is not worth the investment even if it does work.
2. It does not work.
3. The side effects are not worth the gain in lean muscle mass.
Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. [2]
This study is not relevant. The full study is not available and may have been retracted. If not it supports my contention. To quote: However, in humans GH deficiency is not usually associated with immunodeficiency and only minor abnormalities of immune function have been reported, as compared to those observed in GHD animals. It is possible that in humans the GH produced locally in the immune system compensates for the lack of endocrine GH. Thus compensatory growth hormone is not required for immune function.
Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. [3]
This study was in idiopathic osteoporosis patients who were administered calcium and vitamin D at the same time as growth hormone replacement. There was no control group and no calcium and vitamin D group only. We know one of the treatments for osteoporosis is calcium and vitamin D. In the two treatment groups, 1.2iu and 2.4iu per day were administered for three years.
The results did not impress the researchers and they conclude:
• A barrier to GH as a plausible therapy for osteoporosis is that the improvements in BMD in this present and other studies are not as impressive as those usually seen with antiresorptive agents.
• A second barrier to GH treatment is side effects. However, the side effects of GH treatment are well known from numerous studies in GHD and GH-sufficient subjects and are usually well tolerated and seldom cause interruption of treatment
• The GH treatment did not have any effect on bone size, according to the method used in this study.
• However, the absence of a placebo-treated control group strongly limits the conclusions that can be drawn about the efficacy of the treatment in this study; and double blind, placebo-controlled studies are needed to further elucidate the effects of GH on BMD and fracture risk in male idiopathic osteoporosis.
Moreover, this study was funded by a growth hormone producer (Upjohn and Pharmica Swdn). That must have been disappointing for them given other treatments were recommended over GH for increasing bone mass density over long term.
Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. [4]
This study is about thymus atrophy and AIDS patients who are growth hormone deficient. The study concludes: Interestingly, enhancement of thymopoieisis in aging animals was also achieved with the use of IGF-1 as well as ghrelin, a potent GH secretagogue.
Grelin receptor activation can be achieved through ipamorelin (or GHPR-6/2, hexarhelin etc) or MK677. I come back to cost if thymus atrophy is an issue. The study is speculative but say 2iu GH per day $20 vs 10mg MK677 for $2. The study does not call for supraphysiological growth hormone administration in anycase.
The final link was an ad for MK-677. I have not commented on growth hormone secretagogues which may have a place due to the cost effective nature. They may increase growth hormone to supraphysiological levels transiently.
If we are to study whether growth hormone is a cost effective mass gainer, beyond 4kg of steak and a bottle of Pepperjack Shiraz per day then the argument needs to be better than those studies.
In regards to why growth hormone makes you feel better, simply it is a gene switch which manipulates genes. That is not is not to say you are not taking quality of life from your latter years and enjoying the experience now.
I’ll do a list of the genes which may include mu-opiod gene expression (reducing pain) and nerve tissue regeneration genes. Sleep is great for recovery and I am a big fan (at $1 per day not $20). Sleep is not reliant on growth hormone. Aspiring to a long nose, long ears and longer fingers and toes are a personal choice. I assume growth hormone is the only way to achieve those and may be worth the investment. It is for short statured children.
Why are body builders bigger? Check out Coleman’s published cycle, 1100mg per day. Dan Duchaine is dead and not even he used that much (1100mg per week). Training techniques have changed (thanks to the science) food is better. Gene therapy, myostatin, IGF-1, growth hormone (sure) and are they really any different? Dorian Yates and Phil Health have similar stats, size and look. https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162829521
1 Longo, V. D., & Finch, C. E. (2003). Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians?. Science, 299(5611), 1342-1346.
2 Meazza, C., Pagani, S., Travaglino, P., & Bozzola, M. (2004). Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. Pediatric endocrinology reviews: PER, 1, 490-495.
3 Gillberg, P., Mallmin, H., Petrén-Mallmin, M., Ljunghall, S., & Nilsson, A. G. (2002). Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 87(11), 4900-4906.
4 Dardenne, M., Smaniotto, S., Mello‐Coelho, D., Villa‐Verde, D. M. S., & Savino, W. (2009). Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1153(1), 1-5.
<insert giant winkfinger here>
Lots of people asking for my take on HGH after posting Bradley and Furions reports below so here goes.... Schembrahs Bro Science report on HGH
1. First up the fact that Pros are so big nowadays it must be the GH what else could it be??
Why are Professional BB's getting bigger and bigger?
Its almost impossible to pick out one single cause as to why BB's are walking on stage like monsters but some of the main points to consider include:
- Full time sponsorships for the top Pros that allow them to just train
-they get paid to just train actually and not much else apart from some appearances and photoshoots
-they have meal company sponsors so no cooking needed
-they have supplement sponsors
-they have a team of health professionals looking after all their injuries and preventing more from occurring
-they are able to sleep as much as they want
-they look after their gut health, this is a HUGE difference to past generations of BB's
- they employ advanced training techniques as they are discovered with elite coaching crews, think Oxygen Gym, Kuwait
-they use high tech pieces of training equipment invented almost daily allowing them to train like never before
This list goes on as to why they are getting so big....... but wait it must be the HGH right?
2. Cheap underground Chinese HGH
Now I know this is going to hurt a lot of people to hear this who have forked their hard earned cash over for their Blue tops, Yellow tops, Brown tops, Rainbow coloured fairy tops the list goes on.
But let us put the murky world of Chinese underground HGH into perspective.
- Its manufacturing is completely unregulated, ungoverned and down right dodgy
- It is completely untraceable back to its point of origin so they have no concerns of retribution over a bad product made and sold
- the manufactures want you to get maximum results as quickly as possible, max results being fluid retention.
So realistically it will contains cheap products like GHRP, HCG and who knows what else that will ensure you put on fluid quickly and tell all your mates about how good it was.
Now it is also going to contain some filler, what the hell is in that filler is anyones guess.
Do you think the underground Chinese labs or even the backyard labs anywhere in the world are using a 99% Pharma grade product?
What are you exactly putting into your body??
When you get a red welt do you wonder what the hell have I just put in my body?
Do the numbers 192 have any meaning to you when it comes down to what you are putting in your body?
I too used to believe in these kits but sadly no they are all a waste of time
3. Pharma Grade HGH
I was able to use Pharma Grade HGH under the guidance of a doctor a couple of years ago now. Purchased straight from a Pharmacy on Script and with regular blood work to monitor.
I too thought it was the Holy Grail of building muscle when it come to bodybuilding, however I experienced only the following:
- massive fluid retention
- a back pocket that kept getting lighter and lighter
- a midsection that started growing
The amount of fluid I put on, money I spent and belt sizes I went up freaked me out enough to stop my HGH scripts and move away from HGH use forever.
My midsection GREW but it wasn't permanent thankfully.
These are my experiences and I always try to keep things real
I have no ulterior motives and will make no financial gains by saying this.
I am just trying to save anyone out there who wants to listen some hard earned cash.
I am a fan of MK677 for increasing IGF levels I do believe you can purchase online legally for personal research under the guidance of a Doctor.
Brad's response to some of the feedback he received from everybody regarding his report on HGH and Bodybuilding
Brads initial report is a few posts below, just under Furions breakdown of HGH
Bradley Clarke
Master of Human Factors Engineering and Health Science
DipAppSci;AdvDipEnv;AdvDipBus;GradCertForensInv;MESH;MA; MSIA;MHFESA
Scientific Investigator and Performance Chemist
It would be fair to say that I am old school and would prefer to go Chat Board over FB because it lasts longer. But here we are so I will respond in part as we go to keep the answers congruent with the questions and interesting for people who do not have an opinion or so you can come back with better material.
By the look of some comments I may have been mistaken to have said one does not need growth hormone and or that growth hormone has no value as a pharmacological intervention for disease. This is not what I meant to convey. An above average growth hormone level may confer some advantages to a low level for day to day operation and healing although for the emerging evidence, even this might not be the case. In a 2003 report Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians? from the American Association for the Advancement of Science I quote:
GH treatment can increase body mass and decrease adipose tissue in 61- to 81-year-old men with low plasma IGF-I concentration, and long-term GH replacement therapy causes some improvements in patients with GH deficiencies. However, the "antiaging" effects of GH therapy are typically observed after short-term treatment of patients with low plasma GH. By contrast, chronically high GH levels increase the incidence of diseases, including cancer and kidney diseases in rodents, and increase cardiovascular diseases and cancer in human acromegaly patients. GH administration also increases the development of diabetes and glucose intolerance in healthy, older women and men and increases morbidity and mortality in patients that are clinically ill, even after short-term treatment). It is clear that a major and chronic increase in plasma GH/IGF-I levels increases morbidity and mortality.[1]
My intention was not really to argue about life extension however one of my bug bears is the sale of goods which do not work to people who do not need them; a consumer advocate if you will. 90% of bodybuilders will never walk on stage with Luke, do not have the genetics, time to train, funds to supplement. Where is your dollar best put? I can only speak to the published trials.
Consider a 6 month program (which I haven’t found any studies in athletes going that long to answer one question) at 10iu per day. Let’s assume growth hormone is $10 at iu. That’s $100 per day for 185 days; $18,500. That is a serious investment. Short term administration at 16iu had no real BB effect (unless you sprint) over 28 days. This should be our starting point. Not Broscience, actual controlled studies with a placebo group. At 16iu for six months the bill is $29,600. For reference that is a bottle of red wine and 4kg of steak a day for six months. The critical point here is the WADA study found that over 28 days the lean mass accretion was attributable to extracellular water weight. I am happy to entertain that over a longer period some genes may be expressed at a greater level (Furion has suggested some) but in the long term trials soon to be discussed, there was no evidence of this, at least at 2.4iu/day.
It has been suggested that there are thousands of studies saying I am wrong. This is not the case but I concede that there are studies which do support the alternative. When one cites a study you should look at various key attributes beyond the title and abstract. I always do a quick search of the authors and whether the institute is funded and by who. Especially when forming legal arguments. This is why-
A number of links were attached by one reader who disagrees with my assertions. I like being disagreed with and hope to even change my mind. But these studies are not the ones to convince me of a number of key points to my argument:
1. Growth hormone is not worth the investment even if it does work.
2. It does not work.
3. The side effects are not worth the gain in lean muscle mass.
Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. [2]
This study is not relevant. The full study is not available and may have been retracted. If not it supports my contention. To quote: However, in humans GH deficiency is not usually associated with immunodeficiency and only minor abnormalities of immune function have been reported, as compared to those observed in GHD animals. It is possible that in humans the GH produced locally in the immune system compensates for the lack of endocrine GH. Thus compensatory growth hormone is not required for immune function.
Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. [3]
This study was in idiopathic osteoporosis patients who were administered calcium and vitamin D at the same time as growth hormone replacement. There was no control group and no calcium and vitamin D group only. We know one of the treatments for osteoporosis is calcium and vitamin D. In the two treatment groups, 1.2iu and 2.4iu per day were administered for three years.
The results did not impress the researchers and they conclude:
• A barrier to GH as a plausible therapy for osteoporosis is that the improvements in BMD in this present and other studies are not as impressive as those usually seen with antiresorptive agents.
• A second barrier to GH treatment is side effects. However, the side effects of GH treatment are well known from numerous studies in GHD and GH-sufficient subjects and are usually well tolerated and seldom cause interruption of treatment
• The GH treatment did not have any effect on bone size, according to the method used in this study.
• However, the absence of a placebo-treated control group strongly limits the conclusions that can be drawn about the efficacy of the treatment in this study; and double blind, placebo-controlled studies are needed to further elucidate the effects of GH on BMD and fracture risk in male idiopathic osteoporosis.
Moreover, this study was funded by a growth hormone producer (Upjohn and Pharmica Swdn). That must have been disappointing for them given other treatments were recommended over GH for increasing bone mass density over long term.
Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. [4]
This study is about thymus atrophy and AIDS patients who are growth hormone deficient. The study concludes: Interestingly, enhancement of thymopoieisis in aging animals was also achieved with the use of IGF-1 as well as ghrelin, a potent GH secretagogue.
Grelin receptor activation can be achieved through ipamorelin (or GHPR-6/2, hexarhelin etc) or MK677. I come back to cost if thymus atrophy is an issue. The study is speculative but say 2iu GH per day $20 vs 10mg MK677 for $2. The study does not call for supraphysiological growth hormone administration in anycase.
The final link was an ad for MK-677. I have not commented on growth hormone secretagogues which may have a place due to the cost effective nature. They may increase growth hormone to supraphysiological levels transiently.
If we are to study whether growth hormone is a cost effective mass gainer, beyond 4kg of steak and a bottle of Pepperjack Shiraz per day then the argument needs to be better than those studies.
In regards to why growth hormone makes you feel better, simply it is a gene switch which manipulates genes. That is not is not to say you are not taking quality of life from your latter years and enjoying the experience now.
I’ll do a list of the genes which may include mu-opiod gene expression (reducing pain) and nerve tissue regeneration genes. Sleep is great for recovery and I am a big fan (at $1 per day not $20). Sleep is not reliant on growth hormone. Aspiring to a long nose, long ears and longer fingers and toes are a personal choice. I assume growth hormone is the only way to achieve those and may be worth the investment. It is for short statured children.
Why are body builders bigger? Check out Coleman’s published cycle, 1100mg per day. Dan Duchaine is dead and not even he used that much (1100mg per week). Training techniques have changed (thanks to the science) food is better. Gene therapy, myostatin, IGF-1, growth hormone (sure) and are they really any different? Dorian Yates and Phil Health have similar stats, size and look. https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162829521
1 Longo, V. D., & Finch, C. E. (2003). Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians?. Science, 299(5611), 1342-1346.
2 Meazza, C., Pagani, S., Travaglino, P., & Bozzola, M. (2004). Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. Pediatric endocrinology reviews: PER, 1, 490-495.
3 Gillberg, P., Mallmin, H., Petrén-Mallmin, M., Ljunghall, S., & Nilsson, A. G. (2002). Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 87(11), 4900-4906.
4 Dardenne, M., Smaniotto, S., Mello‐Coelho, D., Villa‐Verde, D. M. S., & Savino, W. (2009). Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1153(1), 1-5.
<insert giant winkfinger here>
