What do you think about this cycle?

Nope, not creatine (a good supplement actually) but rather creatinine which is a muscle protein breakdown byproduct. It's related to creatine tho which occurs normally in our systems.

No odd looks from lab workers about frequent visits. They could care less. They are taking blood draws all day long from countless other people including LOTS of cranky old people that especially pile up on Mondays and Fridays in the mornings for fasting labs. Avoid those times.

The only things they ever get their panties in a wad about is if they're confused about payment (just point out that it's prepaid), get confused about needing to see your ID (they don't but who cares, may as well show it), or if you're fasting or not. Best to just say YES even if you're showing up at 4pm and were clearly munching on a candy bar on your way in the door. Calmly state "yes" anyway and stick to it. Otherwise there's a big-ass lecture about why you're supposed to be fasting, and then you might feel like explaining how in fact you're your own doc, you paid for these labs out of your own pocket for your own use, so shut the fuck up and just do your job, but then you've just got a big argument on your hands and the phlebotomist might then have an attitude and an oops when jabbing the draw needle clear through the far side of your veins and cause massive bruising. And maybe they'll "forget" to centrifuge your bottles. Best to just try to get along, lol. Seriously, the "fasting or not" issue is the one thing I've ever had tense confrontations with the lab workers about. It's weird. So just lie.

chocolatemalt said:

Nope, not creatine (a good supplement actually) but rather creatinine which is a muscle protein breakdown byproduct. It's related to creatine tho which occurs normally in our systems.

No odd looks from lab workers about frequent visits. They could care less. They are taking blood draws all day long from countless other people including LOTS of cranky old people that especially pile up on Mondays and Fridays in the mornings for fasting labs. Avoid those times.

The only things they ever get their panties in a wad about is if they're confused about payment (just point out that it's prepaid), get confused about needing to see your ID (they don't but who cares, may as well show it), or if you're fasting or not. Best to just say YES even if you're showing up at 4pm and were clearly munching on a candy bar on your way in the door. Calmly state "yes" anyway and stick to it. Otherwise there's a big-ass lecture about why you're supposed to be fasting, and then you might feel like explaining how in fact you're your own doc, you paid for these labs out of your own pocket for your own use, so shut the fuck up and just do your job, but then you've just got a big argument on your hands and the phlebotomist might then have an attitude and an oops when jabbing the draw needle clear through the far side of your veins and cause massive bruising. And maybe they'll "forget" to centrifuge your bottles. Best to just try to get along, lol. Seriously, the "fasting or not" issue is the one thing I've ever had tense confrontations with the lab workers about. It's weird. So just lie.

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OK cool. And in the process of answering the question I asked, you've also answered a question that I didn't even think to ask, but should have: I just assumed that I'd go there in a fasting state, but after reading your explanation about debates you've had concerning fasting, I guess fasting isn't required for blood tests for liver values. I didn't even know that.

Tall Deck said:

As far as Creatine use, (if you were in fact talking about Creatine supplements) I have no worries there about that stuff altering my Liver values since I never use it. That's just another thing that my system has never responded to. Guys at work used to all rave about how much strength/energy Creatine gave them during their gym workouts, but I tried it twice for three weeks straight, (two different brands) ten years ago, and the stuff never did a thing for me at all.

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chocolatemalt said:

Nope, not creatine (a good supplement actually) but rather creatinine which is a muscle protein breakdown byproduct. It's related to creatine tho which occurs normally in our systems.

No odd looks from lab workers about frequent visits. They could care less. They are taking blood draws all day long from countless other people including LOTS of cranky old people that especially pile up on Mondays and Fridays in the mornings for fasting labs. Avoid those times.

The only things they ever get their panties in a wad about is if they're confused about payment (just point out that it's prepaid), get confused about needing to see your ID (they don't but who cares, may as well show it), or if you're fasting or not. Best to just say YES even if you're showing up at 4pm and were clearly munching on a candy bar on your way in the door. Calmly state "yes" anyway and stick to it. Otherwise there's a big-ass lecture about why you're supposed to be fasting, and then you might feel like explaining how in fact you're your own doc, you paid for these labs out of your own pocket for your own use, so shut the fuck up and just do your job, but then you've just got a big argument on your hands and the phlebotomist might then have an attitude and an oops when jabbing the draw needle clear through the far side of your veins and cause massive bruising. And maybe they'll "forget" to centrifuge your bottles. Best to just try to get along, lol. Seriously, the "fasting or not" issue is the one thing I've ever had tense confrontations with the lab workers about. It's weird. So just lie.

Click to expand...

Actually Creatine through diet/meat/food or specific products is one in the same with blood born creatine in the system (which is primarily manufactured in the liver), once transported into muscle groups/tissue there it will convert into what's also known as "creatinine"..If you take supplementations with creatine, you can 110% guarantee you're creatinine levels will rise.. (think of the conversion ratio of T4 into T3, just an example)

Creatine should be used with caution, and to have the notion to classify it as weak and harmless is ill-advised and careless..If anyone suggests otherwise than they're merely a half-wit...

I was hospitalize for over a week with a serous condition known as "Rhabdomyolysis"..My creatine levels were through-the-roof, and it was triggered/induced by supplementation of creatine and possibly my diet (along with excessive training)..Creatine can increase the risk of dehydration due to intravascular volume depletion (even drinking fluids while taking it as it's suggested, an on-set of this can still happen)..Basically my kidneys couldn't process it and were failing, my muscles were braking down due to training but unable to recover (while creatine kinase was unable to be removed fromthe blood as well as other aliments) resulting in muscle fiber death and those alone couldn't be processed through the blood and kidneys because of the "blockage" with creatine, it was a perfect storm...

While taking gear, supplements, training hard-core, increased protein in way of diet and so on, people need to understand the very importance of blood work and just how pivotal it really is..The stress on the liver from multiple angles can/may contribute to a slew of undesired effects..

I'm simply advocating "blood work" is crucial, you should have a base line (snap-shot) of where you're, where you're at and where you're currently going or potentially heading!

Vision said:

Actually Creatine through diet/meat/food or specific products is one in the same with blood born creatine in the system (which is primarily manufactured in the liver), once transported into muscle groups/tissue there it will convert into what's also known as "creatinine"..If you take supplementations with creatine, you can 110% guarantee you're creatinine levels will rise.. (think of the conversion ratio of T4 into T3, just an example)

Creatine should be used with caution, and to have the notion to classify it as weak and harmless is ill-advised and careless..If anyone suggests otherwise than they're merely a half-wit...

I was hospitalize for over a week with a serous condition known as "Rhabdomyolysis"..My creatine levels were through-the-roof, and it was triggered/induced by supplementation of creatine and possibly my diet (along with excessive training)..Creatine can increase the risk of dehydration due to intravascular volume depletion (even drinking fluids while taking it as it's suggested, an on-set of this can still happen)..Basically my kidneys couldn't process it and were failing, my muscles were braking down due to training but unable to recover (while creatine kinase was unable to be removed fromthe blood as well as other aliments) resulting in muscle fiber death and those alone couldn't be processed through the blood and kidneys because of the "blockage" with creatine, it was a perfect storm...

While taking gear, supplements, training hard-core, increased protein in way of diet and so on, people need to understand the very importance of blood work and just how pivotal it really is..The stress on the liver from multiple angles can/may contribute to a slew of undesired effects..

I'm simply advocating "blood work" is crucial, you should have a base line (snap-shot) of where you're, where you're at and where you're currently going or potentially heading!

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WOW!!! This post here^ is just another great one that has really caught my attention. Holy cow that is scarey stuff!!!!! That makes me wonder even more about something that I was already wondering about....

....If hard resistence training can tax our liver, and/or cause certain liver values to significantly increase, then can we really be sure that the so-called "harsh" and fast acting oral types of gear are in reality the primary cause when/if we see liver values skyrocketing??? But before anyone here is nice enough to post up an answer for me on this one,please first consider the following..... The orals that tend to act quick and give you quick and dramatic strength gains, will also cause you, or should i say ALLOW you to either increase your training intensity through increased poundages in many movements, or increase the volume of work in the form of more reps, more sets per exercise. In fact some guys might even find themselves adding different movements/more exercises to their standard routines exclusively during AAS cycles simply because the gear allows them to handle those extra loads, and higher intensity/higher volumes of work.

So the question here is.... if/when our blood work tests begin to indicate ingreased liver values, how can we know for certain that it's not actually the increase of intensity/workload/volumes in our training sessions during our AAS cycles that are causing liver values to skyrocket, rather than the "harsh" oral gear itself???? Has anyone here ever put a halt to oral gear mid-cycle due to increased liver values indicated by blood tests results, and continued on the injectable gear dosage, or possibly even increasing it, and kept up the same training intensity, and found that two weeks or four weeks later while still on the injectable gear, that your liver values have improved????? I am very curious about this, so that's why I'm posing the question. Not trying to be a wiseguy or a know-it-all since I really do NOT know the answer to this. In fact, I am I the dark on this until I investigate and experiment further. However I also wonder if I'm not the only one in the dark here on these things.

Let me put this another way.... many of us, (if not all of us) pretty much cycle our training intensity levels. I guess in a way, most of us have to.Especially if we have tight/busy scheduels, and/or physically demanding jobs. For instance, I myself have a psycho-mode or gaining intensity mode, and also a maintaining or retaining mode of training intensity. I suppose that what I call psycho-mode can never be quite as intense during gear-free training as it can be during a gear cycle. But has anyone here had blood work done during the lower intensity maintain-mode while gear free, and then stepped-up the intensity while still being gear-free, and after 2 to 4 weeks of that higher intensity training, had blood tests performed again, just to see if, and how much their liver values would be increased by the high intensity workouts WITHOUT the use of AAS's????? And if nobody has done that, then can any of us actually be certain that it's the "harsh" orals that are causing the liver changes indicated by our blood work results, rather than the training intensity increase itself????

Vision said:

we're all willing to pay the price in this game, so we can't bash or hate on him for having the same dream as many of us!

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Very true. I agree. The only thing we can do is hope to learn something from it, even if it's nothing more than a reality check for some of us, or a wake-up call to back off on the cycle durations, or on the dosages we use.