Herniated disc

Hi guys, I herniated my L4/L5 3 x last year. I opted for no surgery and have been back in the gym for about 10 weeks now and relatively pain free. I have a major fear of doing it again, hence, I stay away from heavy straight bar deadlifts. 225 to warm up a bit then I use the trap bar. I think I can feel my lower back gettin stronger, but haven't went for a PR due to the fear. Any advice on this issue?

These types of injuries often are precipitated by poor collagen upkeep due to lack of vitamin C, lysine and proline. For athletes the spine is under a lot of stress so adequate natural resources for repair is essential.

Conditions such as this often occur due to laxity in the tendons that support the spine and keep vertebrae properly stacked and load evenly dispersed. When laxity, due to overuse or one time injury, occurs it causes pain, then people jump on anti-inflammatories and curtail inflammation which is CRITICAL to proper healing. Curtail inflammation and you curtail healing, then in a weakened state exercise resumes, more damage, more anti-inflammatories, rinse and repeat until you have a disc blow out.

Step 1. Make sure you get as much vitamin C as your gut can handle and add in 1.5 to 3grams of lysine and proline a day. Just google collagen synthesis if you doubt what the main components are.

Step 2. ADDRESS any tendon laxity!! If you never get the tendons back into shape you are going to forever be at higher risk of future injury. Not only that but the muscle in the back are going to always be tense as they try and stabilize the spine and take on the load of the tendons. The ideal method for this is prolotherapy. Alternatively look into piezo electric stimulation of the tendons. Both of these method will directly stimulate collagen synthesis and tendon repair.

Been there, done that.

20 years ago I went through an extreme herniation of the same two discs. I didn't get it treated and let it heal on it's own. Over the next several years it would flair up and I'd "slip a disc" just putting on pants and not be able to walk normally for a couple weeks while it healed. It got bad enough I went to see a neuro surgeon. The first one wanted to fuse 3 of my vertebrae as the discs were ruined and almost dead. The second opinion I got was the same. I didn't feel right about these two doctors and went to UM Hospital and met w/ the head of nuero surgery and he agreed w/ the findings but not the treatment. He agreed I'd need fusion but not for 10 or so years. He instructed me to stop deadlifting, squatting, golf, tennis, etc. I listened to him and got fat since almost anything I did was causing problems.
About 6-7 years ago I said fuck it I need to do something and returned to lifting. I'm very careful on squats and deadlifts. I never go very heavy on either since I'm now bone on bone w/ my L4/L5. I've avoided surgery this long and will hold out until I have more bad days than good. Listen to your body, if it hurts your lower back, back off.

Zyglamail said:

These types of injuries often are precipitated by poor collagen upkeep due to lack of vitamin C, lysine and proline. For athletes the spine is under a lot of stress so adequate natural resources for repair is essential....

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Zygla, I can't recall... do you use HGH or similar peptides on a regular basis as part of your program?

Octupi said:

Been there, done that.

20 years ago I went through an extreme herniation of the same two discs. I didn't get it treated and let it heal on it's own. Over the next several years it would flair up and I'd "slip a disc" just putting on pants and not be able to walk normally for a couple weeks while it healed. It got bad enough I went to see a neuro surgeon. The first one wanted to fuse 3 of my vertebrae as the discs were ruined and almost dead. The second opinion I got was the same. I didn't feel right about these two doctors and went to UM Hospital and met w/ the head of nuero surgery and he agreed w/ the findings but not the treatment. He agreed I'd need fusion but not for 10 or so years. He instructed me to stop deadlifting, squatting, golf, tennis, etc. I listened to him and got fat since almost anything I did was causing problems.
About 6-7 years ago I said fuck it I need to do something and returned to lifting. I'm very careful on squats and deadlifts. I never go very heavy on either since I'm now bone on bone w/ my L4/L5. I've avoided surgery this long and will hold out until I have more bad days than good. Listen to your body, if it hurts your lower back, back off.

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Agreed my friend

chocolatemalt said:

Zygla, I can't recall... do you use HGH or similar peptides on a regular basis as part of your program?

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Nope, not currently but did try GH and peptides at one time with little in the way of positive results. I would point out that at the time however I was not on all the nutritional supps I am now and as I have been known to preach all the drugs in the world cant make up for a shortfall where nutrients are concerned. Its just like adding muscle, if you dont have the nutrients to do so it doesnt matter how well you eat, how great your exerices plan is or how intense you are in the gym. If the nutrients dont exist to support the adaptation of muscle growth it simply wont happen or at best at a very slow pace.

Injury is no different, If your body doesnt have an abundance of the nutrients needed for repair the repair will not take place or will be slow to happen and resulting repair will be substandard.

I very well could have gotten better results from GH/peptides if I were on the supps I am now but now I find that while on the supps I dont really need to play around with the peptides/gh.

Just like muscle growth requires rest to happen, healing also needs to be allowed to happen and in almost all of the people I have read about on the various forums and have met personally who suffer long term debilitating injuries have ALL done the same things.

They have halted healing by using the commonly prescribed R.I.C.E (rest, ice, compression, elevation) and anti-inflamatories thereby slamming the brakes on the healing process. Then they proceed to continue activity with the help of NSAIDS (aleeve, ibuprofin etc) and year later they find they have an injury that never healed and in many cases the joint damage is irreparable.

At the end of the day, IF you need anti-inflamatories on a regular basis to function then you have an issue you better get serious about fixing or you are on a slow train to joint destruction, Ive seen it dozens of times now.

As a fellow gym rat believe me, I know what its like to be kept from the gym and have your performance curtailed due to injury, its horrible but mark my words ice and anti-inflamatories or worse yet cortisone injections WILL NOT fix your problem!!!! Take your injuries seriously, even if you think they are minor I can prove otherwise. Go see a prolotherapy doc or someone who does "well wave" which is a form of pieze electric stimulation. The prolo doc will look for trigger points using him fingers to apply pressure to tendons/ligaments. If he presses on healthy tissue you should have minor discomfort at best. If you about fly out of your jockies you have a serious injury, Simple as that! Prolo will hit those same injured areas with an injection of of an irritant and causse localized inflammation which forces the body into healing mode. If you have the nutrients for repair within a few treatments you should be feeling much better. Well wave does the same but uses sound waves to hit the trigger points, not quit as effective on a per treatment basis but a lot less invasive and quite a bit cheaper.

Ligaments are the foundation of your structural integrity, they get jacked your mansions foundation is crumbling and its just a matter of time before it affects the rest of your body. Other tissue damage often accompanies tendon damage and needs to be addressed by other means, ART, massage, trigger point work. Well wave can also be used post injury to help break up scar tissue often commonly associated with muscle tears etc.

I herniated my L5 disc when I was 26 yrs old in the work place, (decades ago). Over the last couple decades, I've learned that what has worked for me is #1. Daily stretching ( about ten minutes daily, and never in the morning cuz I'm just too tight then). When you perform a touch-toes stretch, do NOT bounce to try to force your hands to reach further. That can re-injure your back. Instead, bend down and reach until you begin to get to your limit, and then take a big deep breath in, and let it all out, and then you'll find that you can reach a couple inches further towards the floor. And then hold that position for 30 seconds while breathing normally. Pulling one knee at a time to your chest while laying down on your back is another good stretch.

When I began doing the touch toes stretching, my lower back muscles were so tight, and so unflexible, that I could on;y get my finger tips about two inches below my knee caps!!! That was a major part of my back problem right there. But after performing the stretches daily for a couple weeks, I was able to reach my toes.

#2. I stay away from ALL dead lifts. To keep my lower back muscles strong, I perform three sets of back hyper-extensions a few times per week. When you get strong, you can add a barbell plate behind your head. Back hypers create most of the resistence/most of the work at the end of the movement when you're almost completely straightened up. But dead lifts create most of the work in the beginning of the movement when you're close to being completely bent over, and that causes lots of stress to your discs.

Tall Deck said:

When I began doing the touch toes stretching, my lower back muscles were so tight, and so unflexible, that I could on;y get my finger tips about two inches below my knee caps!!! That was a major part of my back problem right there. But after performing the stretches daily for a couple weeks, I was able to reach my toes.

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The muscle tension is due to guarding and the muscles trying to stabilize the sloppy joint. They can be difficult to stretch if they still require constant tension to support the joint. They can also get "gummed" up with scar tissue making them slow to respond to stretches and contractions.

The spine and the muscle that support it really arent designed for a lot of bending but for supporting load. Rounding your back to stretch really isnt a good idea at all. You should have a neutral spine when working hamstring flexibility. Another thing people often dont realize is that the psoas muscle attaches to the lower spine, goes over the front of the pelvis and attaches to the inner femur. A lot of low back pain can be attributed to issues with this muscle as well.

I would bet money you still have serious tendon laxity issues with your spine and could likely benefit from some prolotherapy or well wave.

Zyglamail said:

The muscle tension is due to guarding and the muscles trying to stabilize the sloppy joint. They can be difficult to stretch if they still require constant tension to support the joint. They can also get "gummed" up with scar tissue making them slow to respond to stretches and contractions.

The spine and the muscle that support it really arent designed for a lot of bending but for supporting load. Rounding your back to stretch really isnt a good idea at all. You should have a neutral spine when working hamstring flexibility. Another thing people often dont realize is that the psoas muscle attaches to the lower spine, goes over the front of the pelvis and attaches to the inner femur. A lot of low back pain can be attributed to issues with this muscle as well.

I would bet money you still have serious tendon laxity issues with your spine and could likely benefit from some prolotherapy or well wave.

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Thank you for your input on these things. I don't know what "prolotherapy" is, so I'll have to do a net search on that one. That psoas muscle you speak of, (which I believe is refered to as the "hip flexor" muscles) are the reason why I perform the the stretch with one knee at a time pulled into my chest while laying on the floor. This stretch keeps that muscle flexible.

Now as far as the spine and supporting muscles of it NOT being designed for a lot of bending goes, well that is precisely why dead lifts aren't really a great exercise for long term overall lower back and spine health/strength. The only thing I know for certain my friend is that when I herniated my L5 disc and I was in my mid 20's, the doctor told me that the injury wasn't bad enough to warrant surgery even though i was in a lot of pain, but that I will need to get a desk job by the time I'm 35 yrs old. But I proved him wrong because I used the couple stretches I've mentioned along with back hyper extensions to rehabilitate my lower back. And I haven't even needed to visit a chiropractor now in over ten years like I used to. I perform standard barbell squats without pain, and without a problem, and I also continue to perform the back hyper extensions too. But NO dead lifts for me. That would be inviting back injury.

What I learned over the years is that muscle spasms are a major cause of back pain, and they can last for a couple hours to a couple months at a time. If your back muscles, ( or any muscles for that matter) are not flexible, then you will definitely be much more prone to muscle spasms. Stretching has allowed me to avoid the pain and muscle spasms that I experienced for years after I herniated my L5 disc. Before I began stretching, I couldn't even sit down on the toilet for ten minutes to defecate, without having major pain from merely trying to stand up again. All that is history now for me, and I never had back surgery.

One other thing that I neglected to mention: I walk a lot in my work place since the factory building that I work in is literally one half mile long. And the walking also helps to keep the lower back muscles loose and flexible. I know this because if I take a long four day weekend off from work, and I don't go for a daily walk, my back feels considerable tighter than usual. So walking every day helps too.

Octupi said:

I'm very careful on squats and deadlifts. I never go very heavy on either since I'm now bone on bone w/ my L4/L5. I've avoided surgery this long and will hold out until I have more bad days than good. Listen to your body, if it hurts your lower back, back off.

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I only do barball squats, ( no deads) and I don't go super heavy either. I always perform sets with poundages that i can at least perform 12 reps per set with. But I DO work hard and intense on the barbell squats without a problem. I don't even use a lifting belt for squats. As long as I push through my heels, (heels always on the floor throughout the entire movement) and I keep my lower back flat without rounding it, ( as in sticking my butt out to avoid rounding the lower back at the bottom of the movement) then I don't have pain during, nor afterwards. As I mentioned earlier, back hyper extensions have strengthened my lower back tremendously, and have allowed me to avoid re-injury. And I fully agree what you're saying about listening to what your body is telling you. It will let you know when something isn't right.

I cannot stress enough the muscle spasm factor. Sometimes we can perform an exercise without causing injury, and everything feels great at the time, and then later on that day, or even the next day, we get major pain, simply due to muscle spasms tightening the area up, and placing pressure on the discs. Daily stertching for just 5 or 10 minutes has allowed me to avoid the pain from muscle spasms in my lower back. Keeping hydrated by drinking plenty of water is important too, as is taking at least 100 mg per day of Magnesium, ( NOT potassium) is as well, ( especially when on a gear cycle!!!).

Tall Deck said:

Thank you for your input on these things. I don't know what "prolotherapy" is, so I'll have to do a net search on that one. That psoas muscle you speak of, (which I believe is refered to as the "hip flexor" muscles) are the reason why I perform the the stretch with one knee at a time pulled into my chest while laying on the floor. This stretch keeps that muscle flexible.

Now as far as the spine and supporting muscles of it NOT being designed for a lot of bending goes, well that is precisely why dead lifts aren't really a great exercise for long term overall lower back and spine health/strength. The only thing I know for certain my friend is that when I herniated my L5 disc and I was in my mid 20's, the doctor told me that the injury wasn't bad enough to warrant surgery even though i was in a lot of pain, but that I will need to get a desk job by the time I'm 35 yrs old. But I proved him wrong because I used the couple stretches I've mentioned along with back hyper extensions to rehabilitate my lower back. And I haven't even needed to visit a chiropractor now in over ten years like I used to. I perform standard barbell squats without pain, and without a problem, and I also continue to perform the back hyper extensions too. But NO dead lifts for me. That would be inviting back injury.

What I learned over the years is that muscle spasms are a major cause of back pain, and they can last for a couple hours to a couple months at a time. If your back muscles, ( or any muscles for that matter) are not flexible, then you will definitely be much more prone to muscle spasms. Stretching has allowed me to avoid the pain and muscle spasms that I experienced for years after I herniated my L5 disc. Before I began stretching, I couldn't even sit down on the toilet for ten minutes to defecate, without having major pain from merely trying to stand up again. All that is history now for me, and I never had back surgery.

One other thing that I neglected to mention: I walk a lot in my work place since the factory building that I work in is literally one half mile long. And the walking also helps to keep the lower back muscles loose and flexible. I know this because if I take a long four day weekend off from work, and I don't go for a daily walk, my back feels considerable tighter than usual. So walking every day helps too.

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Prolotherapy is the targeted injection of an irritant directly into the injured ligaments/tendons that causes localized inflammation and triggers the healing cascade forcing the body to heal and strengthen the tendons/ligaments. Well wave works similarly but uses concentrated sound frequency to hit the tendons/ligaments and trigger inflammation and in turn healing.

As for surgery, surgery can not FIX a herniated disc, the only thing that can do that is your own body. Sure the surgeon can go in andd trim away at the disc if its bulging so its less irritating to surrounding tissue but what do you think that actually does? Causes localized inflammation and the body to heal itself. If the disc is totally blown out the may fuse vertebra but that isnt fixing the disc, thats a bandaid solution at repairing damage, often damage done over a long period of time ignoring the underlying laxity.

As for deadlifts, im nearly 50 and do them weekly at 80-90% my one rep max and have zero back issue. Thats not to say I havent tweaked my back over the years but when I do I make sure the problem is addressed. The problem with deadlifts is the ego of the lifter and people who are lifting beyond their capabilities and sacrifice form for weight. The deadlift literally puts the same stress on the spine as a squat with one small exception where you get the bar past the knees where the bar travel moves forward slightly over your centerline, this can be reduced by doing sumo's. Aside from that both lifts should involve straight bar travel and neutral spine. Letting your spine curve with a loaded bar on your back isnt any different than it hanging from your arms and will lead to injruy.

Stretching should be part of everyones routine and to take it a step farther even having your flexibility tested and your stretching targeted for weaknesses would be even better. When you start talking about spasms etc, there is a myriad of causes from nutritional deficiencies, adhesions, scare tissue in the muscle sloppy joints and others can all affect the muscles.

Zyglamail said:

As for deadlifts, im nearly 50 and do them weekly at 80-90% my one rep max and have zero back issue.

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But have you ever herniated a disc? And if so, was it the bottom one (L5)? If not, then I'm not so sure that you can compare your use of deadlifts to someone who has herniated their L5 disc. BTW, I agree with you that surgery is not the whole solution (ever). We can also agree here about the importance of daily stretching, (even on non-workout days). I also agree that muscle spasms can be caused by a number of things, but tight muscles that aren't supple can definitely be one of the causes, and that goes double when we're on a gear cycle IMO. And thank you for the explanation on the prolotherapy thang.

Tall Deck said:

But have you ever herniated a disc? And if so, was it the bottom one (L5)? If not, then I'm not so sure that you can compare your use of deadlifts to someone who has herniated their L5 disc. BTW, I agree with you that surgery is not the whole solution (ever). We can also agree here about the importance of daily stretching, (even on non-workout days). I also agree that muscle spasms can be caused by a number of things, but tight muscles that aren't supple can definitely be one of the causes, and that goes double when we're on a gear cycle IMO. And thank you for the explanation on the prolotherapy thang.

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My comments about deadlifting were in general and that they can be done safely and have a lot to offer but as with any lift do them improperly and let your ego get in the way and its just a matter of time. As for herniations, I dunno, I may have herniated a disc at one time but will never know. I dont go to the standard doctors for injuries like that because they want me to spend thousands on imaging which means very little and have no solution to offer so I see no point in it.

Luckily the only muscle spasms I have experienced were due to overworked muscles supporting a lax joint. I fixed the joint so the muscles could concentrate on their job which is moving the bones to support movement, and not 24x7 contractions to support sloppy joints, and the problem went away.

With herniation's, and extreme in my case, all of your therapy will do nothing to solve the problem. Things are broken and while a stronger lower back always helps, the mechanical issues I have are real and there is only one solution. I've opted to not have the solution done because I'm dealing with it and have it under control.
When you herniate discs the muscles will spasm to protect the damaged area...when this occurs to me I walk around like a 90 yr old shrunken man for weeks on end.
The problem w/ Deadlifting is the start of the movement creates a shearing force on the L4/L5 region. This is fine if you have normal structure, a strong core and solid lower back strength...it's not fine if one of those three is screwed up.

Octupi said:

With herniation's, and extreme in my case, all of your therapy will do nothing to solve the problem.

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That simply is not true, but believe what you would like. A herniated disc is bulging from original position due to an uneven load on the disc due to laxity in the tendons that support the spine, often causing pain on surrounding nerves. The surgical solution is to trim the bulge and when the tissue is viewed under a microscope its in a proliferative state. In other words the tissue is healing! However in cases where the tendons supporting the spine are loose and/or the natural nutritional materials required for proper healing (of both ligaments and disc) are absent the damage simply can not be healed. Often times because modern medicine total curtails healing by eliminating the inflammatory phase leaving the sight of injury in a forever weakened state.

Prolotherapy to the damaged tendons along with proper collagen building nutrients pull the spine back into alignment reducing the skewed load on the disc allowing it to properly heal. When the load can properly be placed/centered back on the disc the back muscle no longer need to remain tense 24x7 to support the spine. You clearly have been drinking the typical medical system coolaid which is too bad. Modern medical practices have destroyed many people by their ignorance and desire to profit.

Yes there is some sheering force on the spine when deadlfting which also exists at the bottom of the squat since the load is being carried at the top of the spine.

Octupi said:

With herniation's, and extreme in my case, all of your therapy will do nothing to solve the problem. Things are broken and while a stronger lower back always helps, the mechanical issues I have are real and there is only one solution. I've opted to not have the solution done because I'm dealing with it and have it under control.
When you herniate discs the muscles will spasm to protect the damaged area...when this occurs to me I walk around like a 90 yr old shrunken man for weeks on end.
The problem w/ Deadlifting is the start of the movement creates a shearing force on the L4/L5 region. This is fine if you have normal structure, a strong core and solid lower back strength...it's not fine if one of those three is screwed up.

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I agree with you about the "shearing force" created by the beginning of the dead lift movement. That is why I perform back hyper-extensions to strengthen my lower back muscles instead of the dead lift. I don't agree with your over-simplification of muscle spasms. If we neglect to stretch our muscles, (lower back muscles or any muscle) we can get bad muscle cramping in other areas where there is no injury. Have you ever been awakened at night by painful muscle cramp in your calf muscle???? What about a bad cramp in one of your Lat muscles when you're pinning your glutes with gear? Those things are due to muscle spasms/cramps and are avoided with regular daily stretching.

with mine, my L4/L5 discs are dead. They no longer bulge and I'm bone on bone, so as I said a mechanical problem.

Octupi said:

with mine, my L4/L5 discs are dead. They no longer bulge and I'm bone on bone, so as I said a mechanical problem.

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Well, thats more than a herniation then and yes, its too late to be saved but does highlight why its so important to take the injuries seriously and let them heal, force them to heal.