First train your back, then your biceps? Better not, says study

Vision · Dec 11, 2019

First train your back, then your biceps? Better not, says study
If you have a bit of experience with strength training, then you have experienced it yourself for a long time. But because it is always nice to see experiential knowledge confirmed in scientific research, we are just writing a piece about the study that Brazilian scientists published in December 2017 in the Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. According to that research, you should not train your biceps if you have just trained your back. Training biceps after you have trained the chest is better.

Study

The 15 test subjects - students who on average had some two years of experience with strength training - trained their biceps on 3 different occasions with 4 sets on a Scott machine. Sometimes the test subjects only trained their biceps; the second time they first did 4 sets of bench presses and only then trained their biceps; the third time they only trained their biceps after they had first finished 4 sets for their upper back muscle on a seated-row machine.
Results
Whether the researchers looked at the strength [actually: the torque ] that the test subjects could develop, or the amount of work they could do [expressed in joules], the most effective bicep training was the workout in which the students trained their biceps, and nothing else.

Secondly, the researchers discovered that the biceps training in which the students first bench press and then started training their biceps was more effective than the workout in which the students first trained their backs, and then their biceps.
The figure below refers to the amount of joules produced during bicep training. The figures for torque and electrical activity in the muscles [EMG] [say: how strongly the training stimulated the biceps] were not essentially different.

Conclusion
" The main purpose of the split training system is to maximize training volume within a training session and to allow appropriate muscle recovery, " the researchers summarize. " Our results showed that the force production, volume, and recovery were greater when the elbow ﬂ exors muscle group was exercised alone during the training session ."
" In addition, the non-synergist condition presented greater force production, volume, and recovery when compared to the synergist condition ."
" Thus, the results of the present study suggest that strength and conditioning professionals, when applying the split training system, should target only one muscle group in each session or consider using the non-synergist training routine (ie, chest exercise before elbow ﬂ exors exercise or back before elbow extensor exercise) in resistance-trained subjects . "
Source:
J Strength Cond Res. 2017 Dec; 31 (12): 3482-8.

HFO3 · Dec 11, 2019

dale · Dec 11, 2019

Saw a video by the king of biceps himself greg valentino - synthol notwithstanding he said he got his greatest gains working bi and tri on the same day greatest pumps and gains.

Augustine5I · Dec 11, 2019

I can see how maximum output was best when biceps were trained alone. Or after doing a chest press.

But the point of training back and biceps together is to take advantage of how they compliment each other since any given "back" exercise (mostly) also engages the biceps.

Since the back exercise(s) is recruiting biceps already, they become pre-exhausted/fatigued. In effect, you are training biceps already.

So when the participants "trained" biceps and then did rows, they essentially were doing a superset. Of course output would be less.

And at the same time, for training purposes....the amount of work performed by the biceps during the rows means less "work" is needed to completely exhaust the biceps. Requiring less total sets then would be if you had trained them alone.

I think the study is accurate, but doesn't take into consideration that the maximum output is still the "maximum effort" the biceps has to give having been pre-exhausted first.

Kinda like measuring output for triceps after doing a chest press. As compared to doing triceps alone or in combination with a pulldown machine.

I suspect triceps output would be effected since they were already incorporated into the bench press making them tired (since they also had some muscle fibers recruited).

Vision · Dec 11, 2019

Augustine5I said:
I can see how maximum output was best when biceps were trained alone. Or after doing a chest press.

But the point of training back and biceps together is to take advantage of how they compliment each other since any given "back" exercise (mostly) also engages the biceps.

Since the back exercise(s) is recruiting biceps already, they become pre-exhausted/fatigued. In effect, you are training biceps already.

So when the participants "trained" biceps and then did rows, they essentially were doing a superset. Of course output would be less.

And at the same time, for training purposes....the amount of work performed by the biceps during the rows means less "work" is needed to completely exhaust the biceps. Requiring less total sets then would be if you had trained them alone.

I think the study is accurate, but doesn't take into consideration that the maximum output is still the "maximum effort" the biceps has to give having been pre-exhausted first.

Kinda like measuring output for triceps after doing a chest press. As compared to doing triceps alone or in combination with a pulldown machine.

I suspect triceps output would be effected since they were already incorporated into the bench press making them tired (since they also had some muscle fibers recruited).

I agree with what you're saying and I thought the same thing..
In my opinion I don't think it's "wrong" to train back/bis, in fact that's what I do.. but when I do incorporate them it is not my initial arm routine but rather just an extended pump an activation, with a few sets at high reps.. of course my output is hindered because of the initial workout, that's why I just capitalized on polishing it right up..

I believe the article is probably catering around to a whole different approach with people utilizing this as their official routine..

My bi/tri routine is entirely separate from everything else, I just throw in bi or tri with push or pull rules during the week for stimulation inactivation..

dale · Dec 11, 2019

Augustine5I said:
I can see how maximum output was best when biceps were trained alone. Or after doing a chest press.

But the point of training back and biceps together is to take advantage of how they compliment each other since any given "back" exercise (mostly) also engages the biceps.

Since the back exercise(s) is recruiting biceps already, they become pre-exhausted/fatigued. In effect, you are training biceps already.

So when the participants "trained" biceps and then did rows, they essentially were doing a superset. Of course output would be less.

And at the same time, for training purposes....the amount of work performed by the biceps during the rows means less "work" is needed to completely exhaust the biceps. Requiring less total sets then would be if you had trained them alone.

I think the study is accurate, but doesn't take into consideration that the maximum output is still the "maximum effort" the biceps has to give having been pre-exhausted first.

Kinda like measuring output for triceps after doing a chest press. As compared to doing triceps alone or in combination with a pulldown machine.

I suspect triceps output would be effected since they were already incorporated into the bench press making them tired (since they also had some muscle fibers recruited).

Makes sense but the reasoning I always believed for training complimentary muscles together like back and bis was if you train back today your bis will also be recovering over the next day or two eliminating the possibility to train them at max effort. Working them the same day they may be pre exhausted but at least they wont be sore and trying to recover form yesterdays back workout. Work bis and tris today and there is zero percent chance you will give your back 100% effort tomorrow. Always keep pushing and pulling on separate days working larger before smaller. Rules were made to be broken.

Augustine5I · Dec 12, 2019

dale said:
Makes sense but the reasoning I always believed for training complimentary muscles together like back and bis was if you train back today your bis will also be recovering over the next day or two eliminating the possibility to train them at max effort. Working them the same day they may be pre exhausted but at least they wont be sore and trying to recover form yesterdays back workout. Work bis and tris today and there is zero percent chance you will give your back 100% effort tomorrow. Always keep pushing and pulling on separate days working larger before smaller. Rules were made to be broken.

I agree.

You are training back and to a lesser degree, biceps at the same time. So finish off biceps in the same workout.

If you wait until the next day, they may be partially sore from whatever work they received in your back routine. So yeah, not going to get killer workouts done this way.

I find it hard to even get my shoulder routine done without breaking me down too much before my chest day...

dale · Dec 13, 2019

Augustine5I said:
I agree.

I find it hard to even get my shoulder routine done without breaking me down too much before my chest day...

I have always struggled with this.

First train your back, then your biceps? Better not, says study

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