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Insane lower back pain

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masseffect

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Ever since I injured my lower back(one bad form deadlift) I experience insanely bad lower back pain, progresovelg builds to a point of not being able to work thru. Happens most during squats and deadlifts, once it arises wont go away for the whole workout and will nag for 2-3 days, the "nagging" that follows is a very tight feeling that turns to a burn during regular activity ie, bending over, holdingt weight in front of me. Anyone have experience with this. Makes leg day unbearable, an eve back days are a pain. Only thing that nulls pain a little til my next set is to roll my lower back on a barbell with my full bodyweight.
 
Yeah man I had this same phenomena and it turned out I had a bulging disc...

I would get it looked at asap and go from there.

Then use some anti-inflammatories, heat, foam rolling and some ART or massage around that area and it can help. I did eventually see a Chiro for a few months and even using an inversion table and gently stretching it 5+ days a week I started to see relief.

If it turns out to be purely muscular and those small muscles right above the ass, feels like they are above your tailbone, flare up, you can use Foam Roller, and massage to help that area as well.

Good luck man, I had mine for 6-12 months and really had to stop deadlifting and doing heavy squats for it to heal properly. Or do them but super light and low reps.
 
^ Very good advice. I would add moist heat, as it works better than regular heat. I use a electrical moist heating pad and get very good results. I also have to stay off weights on my shoulders for a week, then good to go.
 
Get it looked at. You might have a slipped disc or something. Hence why you really need it looked at.

After that Wesley has it absolutely correct. But get it looked at first because it could be bad. I slipped a disc doing deads about 10 years ago and it's never been right since. One too many reps with 405. Decided I could pull a 7th. Bad idea lol
 
Thanks everyone I guess once insurance kicks in I will try to get an mri of it and work from there the heat definitely helps and so do anti inflammatory drugs just not on the actual leg day
 
I'd avoid squats and deadlifts until u have it looked at. Squats caused my herniated disc and collapsed disc space.
 
It sounds like you have strained supportive tissues (ie tendons/ligaments) and the surrounding muscle is "guarding" to protect the area and take up the slack to prevent further damage. When that happens the muscles doing the guarding are tense or at least semi-tense all the time so when worked fatigue very fast and cramp up.

The pain symptoms you describe sound more like muscle cramps/spasms due to tendon/ligament injury that support the spine and less like a disc injury. You will want to get the tendon/ligament laxity addressed or it will become a disc issue.

I agree that heat, massage, foam rollers are all good to help the muscles relax but anti-inflammatories hinder healing bit time by interrupting the healing cascade via inflammation reduction. Making sure you have ample nutrients for collagen synthesis is essential and I recommend 6grams of vit C a day along with 1500mg of both lysine and proline, all in divided dose. Work up slow on the vit C some people just cant handle that much and will get diarrhea. Vit C is always overlooked when it comes to collagen synthesis but is very low in most people, certainly much lower than it should be which is why we see so many suffering from cardiovascular disease.

I would also recommend finding a prolotherapy doc and getting a few treatments, not cheap or covered by insurance but if the problem is ignored you're likely setting yourself up for a more serious injury. You could also try "wellwave" which will give you direct feedback as to where the injury is. direct palpation/stimulation of the injured tendons/ligaments with give direct feedback in the form of pain. Wellwave is a very pinpointed soundwave which can cause pain highlighting the injury and causing very localized inflammation which in turn leads to more rapid healing. Its generally about $50 a session but is no where near as effective as prolotherapy is on a per treatment basis so requires many more treatments to accomplish the same thing.
 
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Wow awesome information thanks a lot i will look into those treatment options, I had a freling it was something other than a disc because the pain is really only severe when working out or using my lower back to stabilize myself standing straight up with weight infront of me
 
I went to a physical therapist, who massaged my lower back and showed me some lower back stretching exercises. The message felt great and helped, so did the stretching. I ice to help numb the pain (not too bad now and only when I sit for awhile) and moist heat. I still am off doing squats and hack squats for now, but do other lower body exercise with no problem. Good luck.
 
Jimmyz2 said:
I went to a physical therapist, who massaged my lower back and showed me some lower back stretching exercises. The message felt great and helped, so did the stretching. I ice to help numb the pain (not too bad now and only when I sit for awhile) and moist heat. I still am off doing squats and hack squats for now, but do other lower body exercise with no problem. Good luck.
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I've had a herniated L-5 disc for 30 years. I avoid dead lifts but perform barbell squats routinely. I think you'll find that stretching just ten min per day will work better than anything else. If/when you're ready to begin normal workouts again, I'd substitute deadlifts with back hyper-extensions if i were you. You can build up gradually to using a 25 lb plate behind your head for more resistence. Back hypers place most of the stress and the work when your back is close to being straightened out, which eliminates the sheering force that deadlifts place on your discs.

After I herniated my L-5 disc, daily stretching, and back hypers is how I rehabilitated my lower back. A lot of guys avoid abdominal work these days, but ab work can help to keep the abs short and tight, which helps to prevent a detrimental tilt of your pelvic region. That's why I still perform a few sets of sit-ups three times per week despite many BBers saying that ab work is useless. I do it for physical therapy in order to keep my lower back healthy, and my pelvic tilt at a minimum. Just do NOT perform sit-up nor leg raises with straight legs, because that can injure your lower back even more. I always perform sit-ups with bent legs
 
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Jimmyz2 said:
I went to a physical therapist, who massaged my lower back and showed me some lower back stretching exercises. The message felt great and helped, so did the stretching. I ice to help numb the pain (not too bad now and only when I sit for awhile) and moist heat. I still am off doing squats and hack squats for now, but do other lower body exercise with no problem. Good luck.
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Keep in mind what ice does. It causes vasorestriction which in turn reduces blood flow to the area. This means reduced damage tissue being removed and reduced raw materials getting to the site to facilitate repair. Sure, it also reduces inflammation but at the coast of healing.

The stretching and massage help to relax the muscles that are working 24x7 to stabilize the injured area but dont forgot that none of these things really address the underlying problem of tendon/ligament laxity which is why the muscles are tight and guarding in the first place.
 
As Wes said, it sounds like a disc issue(could be muscle though). You should go get it checked out ASAP before you do any possible further damage.
 
Intense said:
As Wes said, it sounds like a disc issue(could be muscle though). You should go get it checked out ASAP before you do any possible further damage.
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It could be, but even if it is the solution is ultimately the same. Disc damage usually occurs when the body doesnt have the nutrients to keep the disc healthy and then the spine is placed under load, usually bending, which places uneven forces on the disc. This uneven pressure usually occurs at extreme range which means the supporting tissue (ie tendons/ligaments) were likely injured at the same time.

The underlying disc issue (if thats what it is) generally will resolve itself if allowed to heal. That means getting enough nutrients for proper collagen synthesis, NOT CAUSING ADDITION DAMAGE, and then repairing the supporting tissues (tendons/ligaments) that support the spine.

If the tendons/ligaments are not allowed to heal because someone relies on anti-inflammatories/ice, yet continues to take/use and workout along with not getting the proper nutrition its a perfect storm for long term irreparable damage.

Typical docs do not know how to treat sports injuries, sure they can give you an MRI to try and identify the problem, but then what?? Cortisone for the pain, you feel great, ignore the actual underlying problem and continue to destroy your back? All for the low price of thousands of dollars if you have a standard high deductible insurance plan. Surgeons only come into play if there is damage to be repaired, vertebrae to fuse etc.

A skilled doc can palpate the area and if there is an elicited pain response you know there is damage, let it heal and be patient!

Prolotherapy involves very localized injections into the injured tendons/ligaments. Every time one gets hit with a needle thats injured you will know by the pain whereas when an uninjured one is hit there will be no pain. Prolo will cause a very localized (ie to the tendon/ligament only) inflammation that will cause a surge of healing to take place. A well wave treatment by a chiro will cause the same and identify injured tissue as the sound wave hits injured tendons/ligaments there will be pain where as healthy tissue will elicit no such effect.
 
Zyglamail said:
It could be, but even if it is the solution is ultimately the same. Disc damage usually occurs when the body doesnt have the nutrients to keep the disc healthy and then the spine is placed under load, usually bending, which places uneven forces on the disc. This uneven pressure usually occurs at extreme range which means the supporting tissue (ie tendons/ligaments) were likely injured at the same time.

The underlying disc issue (if thats what it is) generally will resolve itself if allowed to heal. That means getting enough nutrients for proper collagen synthesis, NOT CAUSING ADDITION DAMAGE, and then repairing the supporting tissues (tendons/ligaments) that support the spine.

If the tendons/ligaments are not allowed to heal because someone relies on anti-inflammatories/ice, yet continues to take/use and workout along with not getting the proper nutrition its a perfect storm for long term irreparable damage.

Typical docs do not know how to treat sports injuries, sure they can give you an MRI to try and identify the problem, but then what?? Cortisone for the pain, you feel great, ignore the actual underlying problem and continue to destroy your back? All for the low price of thousands of dollars if you have a standard high deductible insurance plan. Surgeons only come into play if there is damage to be repaired, vertebrae to fuse etc.

A skilled doc can palpate the area and if there is an elicited pain response you know there is damage, let it heal and be patient!

Prolotherapy involves very localized injections into the injured tendons/ligaments. Every time one gets hit with a needle thats injured you will know by the pain whereas when an uninjured one is hit there will be no pain. Prolo will cause a very localized (ie to the tendon/ligament only) inflammation that will cause a surge of healing to take place. A well wave treatment by a chiro will cause the same and identify injured tissue as the sound wave hits injured tendons/ligaments there will be pain where as healthy tissue will elicit no such effect.
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I'm just saying get an MRI to figure out wtf is going on lol.



Wouldn't EQ possibly help this type of thing if it were a disc issue?
 
Intense said:
I'm just saying get an MRI to figure out wtf is going on lol.



Wouldn't EQ possibly help this type of thing if it were a disc issue?
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I fully agree with getting an MRI to properly diagnose the problem instead of having to play guess work. As far as EQ goes, I don't think that any type of AAS will help mend/repair a herniated disc
 
Intense said:
I'm just saying get an MRI to figure out wtf is going on lol.
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I understand that but MRI's really arent all that accurate when it comes to showing actual soft tissue damage, quite a few studies on this. As mentioned a quality doc can tell you whats going on with simple palpation. Its more important to find a doc who really understands sports injuries.
 
Zyglamail said:
Keep in mind what ice does. It causes vasorestriction which in turn reduces blood flow to the area. This means reduced damage tissue being removed and reduced raw materials getting to the site to facilitate repair. Sure, it also reduces inflammation but at the coast of healing.

The stretching and massage help to relax the muscles that are working 24x7 to stabilize the injured area but dont forgot that none of these things really address the underlying problem of tendon/ligament laxity which is why the muscles are tight and guarding in the first place.
Click to expand...

I use ice only when I have been sitting for awhile, and only use it for 15 minutes. I predominately use moist heat. No ab work, but do hyper-extensions. No squats or hack squats. Also trying to remove most belly fat, as in the past that helped the most in my situation (age related spine compression and bulging disk L-5).
 
I understand the point about tendons and ligaments being lax or injured, and how they sometimes can be the cause of painful muscle spasms. However keep in mind that muscle spasms are not always due to an injury, nor are they always caused by tendon/ligament laxity. How many times have you had a stiff neck due to a trapezuis muscle spasm which can sometimes last all day long or in some cases even a few days? And I've also had painful cramping in my feet, calves, and even in my Lat muscles, which for me are all usually cured and prevented with daily stretching, along with adequate water, Taurine, and magnesium intake. I do understand though how the lower back area as well as the area along the entire spinal cord has a lot of things going on at a various times, with vertabrae, spinal cortex nerves, discs, as well as the musculature. But tight muscles often can be a contributing cause of pain as well as even a contributing cause of injury.

I think that most BBers in general severely neglect stretching, and the sad thing is, that the larger and thicker the muscles become, the greater the need is for them to be stretched on a daily basis. If you don't believe that, then ask yourself why it is that most women in general have more flexibility than men do: it's due to their muscles being thinner and smaller than men's are. It's as if you have two rubber bands...a very thick/wide one, and a very thin/narrow one. Which rubber band will be easier to stretch? Which one will be more flexible? Think of your muscles as those rubber bands. The thicker they are, the tighter they will tend to be, and that extra tightness has a greater requirement for the muscles to be stretched on a routine basis.
 
Jimmyz2 said:
I use ice only when I have been sitting for awhile, and only use it for 15 minutes. I predominately use moist heat. No ab work, but do hyper-extensions. No squats or hack squats. Also trying to remove most belly fat, as in the past that helped the most in my situation (age related spine compression and bulging disk L-5).
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IHMO no ab work is a Mistake. As an analogy, the spine is an electrical pole, like you may see on the side of the road. The muscle in the back is a guy wire stabilizing the spine from one side, the abs are a guy wire on the opposite site stabilizing. If your only working one side you can actually cause an imbalance and put more stress on the spine.
 
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Tall Deck said:
I understand the point about tendons and ligaments being lax or injured, and how they sometimes can be the cause of painful muscle spasms. However keep in mind that muscle spasms are not always due to an injury, nor are they always caused by tendon/ligament laxity. How many times have you had a stiff neck due to a trapezuis muscle spasm which can sometimes last all day long or in some cases even a few days? And I've also had painful cramping in my feet, calves, and even in my Lat muscles, which for me are all usually cured and prevented with daily stretching, along with adequate water, Taurine, and magnesium intake. I do understand though how the lower back area as well as the area along the entire spinal cord has a lot of things going on at a various times, with vertabrae, spinal cortex nerves, discs, as well as the musculature. But tight muscles often can be a contributing cause of pain as well as even a contributing cause of injury.

I think that most BBers in general severely neglect stretching, and the sad thing is, that the larger and thicker the muscles become, the greater the need is for them to be stretched on a daily basis. If you don't believe that, then ask yourself why it is that most women in general have more flexibility than men do: it's due to their muscles being thinner and smaller than men's are. It's as if you have two rubber bands...a very thick/wide one, and a very thin/narrow one. Which rubber band will be easier to stretch? Which one will be more flexible? Think of your muscles as those rubber bands. The thicker they are, the tighter they will tend to be, and that extra tightness has a greater requirement for the muscles to be stretched on a routine basis.
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Keep in mind that, if I remember correctly the OP of this thread did state he injured his back during exercise. I appreciate and agree with what you're saying about not all problems being due injury but I'm not just throwing this out there as a catch all but specifically to the OP of this thread to which I still think my assessment is largely accurate.

As far as flexibility goes I think your quite a bit off point. "stretching" is a misnomer because you really arent lengthening (ie stretching) anything. Even the "stiffest" of people, when fully sedated can have, as an example, their leg folded fully up against their body until they were kissing their shin (assuming no bone abnormalities preventing the range of motion. There is a lot more to women being more flexible than their muscles being smaller. The truth is a strong muscle is just as if not more apt to allow for extreme range of motion. Flexibility is by and large a byproduct of the central nervous system. Bodybuilders don't train or build strength in the extreme range of motion so they are literally training themselves out of flexibility from a CNS standpoint. The size and thickness of your muscles doesnt affect your ability to move to extreme range its your brain which causes the muscle to tense as the range of a motion gets outside of the bodies "comfort zone" and the comfort zone is directly proportional to how much time is spent there and how strong the muscle is in that extreme position. Its a safety mechanism where the body will tighten the muscle, sometimes very abruptly when rapid acceleration of a joint occurs and the bodies percieves impending damage. Ever here of someone just stumble and pull a hamstring? They were no where near their range limit but as a response the unexpected velocity of the movement the body will sacrifice fast healing muscle tissue in favor or having much slower tendon/ligament/bone get damaged. Spend some time googling golgi tendon organ.
 
Zyglamail said:
Keep in mind that, if I remember correctly the OP of this thread did state he injured his back during exercise. I appreciate and agree with what you're saying about not all problems being due injury but I'm not just throwing this out there as a catch all but specifically to the OP of this thread to which I still think my assessment is largely accurate.

As far as flexibility goes I think your quite a bit off point. "stretching" is a misnomer because you really arent lengthening (ie stretching) anything. Even the "stiffest" of people, when fully sedated can have, as an example, their leg folded fully up against their body until they were kissing their shin (assuming no bone abnormalities preventing the range of motion. There is a lot more to women being more flexible than their muscles being smaller. The truth is a strong muscle is just as if not more apt to allow for extreme range of motion. Flexibility is by and large a byproduct of the central nervous system. Bodybuilders don't train or build strength in the extreme range of motion so they are literally training themselves out of flexibility from a CNS standpoint. The size and thickness of your muscles doesnt affect your ability to move to extreme range its your brain which causes the muscle to tense as the range of a motion gets outside of the bodies "comfort zone" and the comfort zone is directly proportional to how much time is spent there and how strong the muscle is in that extreme position. Its a safety mechanism where the body will tighten the muscle, sometimes very abruptly when rapid acceleration of a joint occurs and the bodies percieves impending damage. Ever here of someone just stumble and pull a hamstring? They were no where near their range limit but as a response the unexpected velocity of the movement the body will sacrifice fast healing muscle tissue in favor or having much slower tendon/ligament/bone get damaged. Spend some time googling golgi tendon organ.
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I'm gonna throw a monkey wrench in the works of your theory, and then I'll let it go....

if all of what you're saying above is true, and stretching doesn't accomplish anything, then why is it that when I wasn't stretching my lat muscles, they would cramp up severely as soon as I would reach over to pin my glute muscle? And then after a couple days of stretching the lats, I could pin my own glutes without a problem and without any cramping? When I perform a lat stretch, I am actually moving in the OPPOSITE direction as I do when I have to reach around to pin the glute area. So puting my muscles in the range of motion has nothing to do with it since I'm moving in the opposite direction to perform the stretch.
 
Tall Deck said:
I'm gonna throw a monkey wrench in the works of your theory, and then I'll let it go....

if all of what you're saying above is true, and stretching doesn't accomplish anything, then why is it that when I wasn't stretching my lat muscles, they would cramp up severely as soon as I would reach over to pin my glute muscle? And then after a couple days of stretching the lats, I could pin my own glutes without a problem and without any cramping? When I perform a lat stretch, I am actually moving in the OPPOSITE direction as I do when I have to reach around to pin the glute area. So putting my muscles in the range of motion has nothing to do with it since I'm moving in the opposite direction to perform the stretch.
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It's not a theory, its called science and I never said stretching doesnt accomplish anything, I said stretching doesnt "stretch" anything, there is a difference. Let me simplify this since you clearly arent going to spend the time studying the science. Muscle tension is what causes the limited range of motion. This tension is caused by the central nervous system and is not due to the size of the muscle at all as your rubber band analogy above. What "stretching" does is reacclimate your body/central nervous system with being at an extended range of motion and the more time your in that range the more natural it becomes and the body will adapt by more freely letting you move into that range before the CNS/golgi tendon organ kick in and cause muslce tension.

An added benefit is that forcing yourself into a range not normally in can help pull loose adhesions and the like which is likely what you experienced since most significant range of motion limitations that are CNS related and not adhesion based require weeks or months not just a couple days to acheive.
 
I know what works for me, based on my own personal experimentation and experience. And I happen to have sustained a back injury in the form of a herniated L-5 disc 3 decades ago. Since then I've gone through MUCH trial and error, and found what works for this injury. Same goes for muscle spams and the prevention of them. Researching and study is fine up to a certain point, but then after that, there's the real world, and time to find what really works. Each individual has to engage in the trial and error learning curve for himself to find a real solution. And that doesn't always come from a book, or article.
 
Tall Deck said:
I know what works for me, based on my own personal experimentation and experience. And I happen to have sustained a back injury in the form of a herniated L-5 disc 3 decades ago. Since then I've gone through MUCH trial and error, and found what works for this injury. Same goes for muscle spams and the prevention of them. Researching and study is fine up to a certain point, but then after that, there's the real world, and time to find what really works. Each individual has to engage in the trial and error learning curve for himself to find a real solution. And that doesn't always come from a book, or article.
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I've never said "stretching" was a bad thing or that stretching didnt help. And yes, many things cant clearly be diagnosed, even with the most expensive medical equipment and require some trial and error, believe me, I know it all too well. This isn't about what works and what doesn't it's about your interpretation of why something works and you using ancient and incorrect analogies to try and explain science. While sharing your experience may help people the propagation of Pseudoscience doesn't really help anyone. Most folks are here not only to help but learn as well, my intent wasn't to insult you, sorry if it came across that way, but to help educate you on the inaccuracies of your rubber band analogy when it comes to stretching.
 
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