Sust/winny stack. Please critique

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 27, 2012

Hello all

First time cycle planned. Looking to recomp

6'0 230
not sure of exact bf% but prob mid teens. Will not start cycle until I measure down at 12% or lower. Aiming for sept 1 start date.
About 17 years or more with lifting and training experience
tracking macros, and have diet in check. Currently 60/20/20 pfc in order to drop bf.

Cycle is planned as follows

Weeks 1-10 Sust 250 e3d
Weeks 6-12 Winny ed
Weeks 2-12 Adex .25 eod

Pct starting week 13 to allow Sust esters to clear system
nolva 40/40/20/20
daa
erase

Please critique

Thanks

RoidsR4m3 · Jul 27, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
Hello all

First time cycle planned. Looking to recomp

6'0 230
not sure of exact bf% but prob mid teens. Will not start cycle until I measure down at 12% or lower. Aiming for sept 1 start date.
About 17 years or more with lifting and training experience
tracking macros, and have diet in check. Currently 60/20/20 pfc in order to drop bf.

Cycle is planned as follows

Weeks 1-10 Sust 250 e3d
Weeks 6-12 Winny ed
Weeks 2-12 Adex .25 eod

Pct starting week 13 to allow Sust esters to clear system
nolva 40/40/20/20
daa
erase

Please critique

Thanks

I'd say for your first, keep the sus at 500mg-600 a week. Maybe 250mg mon and thurs for 500/week or 200mg mon, weds, and friday for 600mg/week. Also make sure you get some clomid in your pct. Trust me, your little guys will thank you. And how are your joints and at what daily dosage are you planning to run the winny at. I'm assuming 50mg/day... Other than that, for a first cycle, it's plain and simple. It's not harsh and should put some solid muscle on you.

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 27, 2012

RoidsR4m3 said:
I'd say for your first, keep the sus at 500mg-600 a week. Maybe 250mg mon and thurs for 500/week or 200mg mon, weds, and friday for 600mg/week. Also make sure you get some clomid in your pct. Trust me, your little guys will thank you. And how are your joints and at what daily dosage are you planning to run the winny at. I'm assuming 50mg/day... Other than that, for a first cycle, it's plain and simple. It's not harsh and should put some solid muscle on you.

Yes, 50 mg ed on the winny. Never had any issues w my joints but going to take some fish oil. I think I am going to order the Clomid. Clomid seems to be universally preferred on pct over the Nolva.

As for the sust I originally planned 250 monday and Thursday but I've read a lot about the prop half life and basically wasting the prop if you wait longer between pins then e3d. I could split it like you suggested but I've got amps so that would be too difficult for a new guy like me. I will prob go w the Monday Thursday like you suggested.

As for diet, what macros do you shoot for on cycle? I want to add lean bulk. I'm insulin sensitive and carbs are my enemy. So I planned on keeping my macros at 60/20/20 and drink lots of water. I was hoping w that diet along w the Adex I could keep bloat to a minimum. I don't want my gains to suffer from low a low fat diet though.

Thanks for all the help bro.

RoidsR4m3 · Jul 27, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
Yes, 50 mg ed on the winny. Never had any issues w my joints but going to take some fish oil. I think I am going to order the Clomid. Clomid seems to be universally preferred on pct over the Nolva.

As for the sust I originally planned 250 monday and Thursday but I've read a lot about the prop half life and basically wasting the prop if you wait longer between pins then e3d. I could split it like you suggested but I've got amps so that would be too difficult for a new guy like me. I will prob go w the Monday Thursday like you suggested.

As for diet, what macros do you shoot for on cycle? I want to add lean bulk. I'm insulin sensitive and carbs are my enemy. So I planned on keeping my macros at 60/20/20 and drink lots of water. I was hoping w that diet along w the Adex I could keep bloat to a minimum. I don't want my gains to suffer from low a low fat diet though.

Thanks for all the help bro.

Ya, amps are a little harder to plan around. Well, I would say 500mg/week would be good enough to start. Trust me, if this is your first, you'll feel it. And for the pct, add the clomid with your pct. You should feel it working after day 1. Clomid feels like a tingling sensation down in your balls. Remember, Nolva will help keep your e2 to a minimum as your test levels are rebounding and clomid will help get your boys back working again. As for diet concerns, I'm a huge believer in carb cycling. It's done wonders for me and allot of other guys. If your carb sensitive, then make sure you get the majority of those post-workout so it's used up properly instead of it being stored as bf. And for fats, that's different from person-to-person. Try and get those from almonds/walnuts, avocados, fish/ fish oil, olive oil and such. The adex during cycle will help reduce e2 and some water weight from the longer acting esters in the sus. also, the last six weeks, your winny will help with that too. Remember, you are what you eat.... and with steroids, they amplify everything. so just make sure your eating clean and healthy. I can't give an exact macro ratio but if you know your body, listen to it. You'll start to see changes around weeks 3 and 4.

I hope this helps a little.

BigD · Jul 28, 2012

RoidsR4m3 said:
Ya, amps are a little harder to plan around. Well, I would say 500mg/week would be good enough to start. Trust me, if this is your first, you'll feel it. And for the pct, add the clomid with your pct. You should feel it working after day 1. Clomid feels like a tingling sensation down in your balls. Remember, Nolva will help keep your e2 to a minimum as your test levels are rebounding and clomid will help get your boys back working again. As for diet concerns, I'm a huge believer in carb cycling. It's done wonders for me and allot of other guys. If your carb sensitive, then make sure you get the majority of those post-workout so it's used up properly instead of it being stored as bf. And for fats, that's different from person-to-person. Try and get those from almonds/walnuts, avocados, fish/ fish oil, olive oil and such. The adex during cycle will help reduce e2 and some water weight from the longer acting esters in the sus. also, the last six weeks, your winny will help with that too. Remember, you are what you eat.... and with steroids, they amplify everything. so just make sure your eating clean and healthy. I can't give an exact macro ratio but if you know your body, listen to it. You'll start to see changes around weeks 3 and 4.

I hope this helps a little.

Bump^^^

If you can, incorporate some hcg into your pct. Also, Winny for six at 50mg/day can be harsh on your liver, so as "always" recommended, add some sort of liver protection. I myself and the guys I prep always take essentiale forte and liv. 52. Just as a precaution. Also, you'd be amazed at what winny can do in four weeks if your diet is spot on, six weeks is fine but four will get you what your looking for, that is if your diet is spot on

Tris10 · Jul 28, 2012

You're completely right about the prop in the sust. If you're not going to pin Eod, just run test e or c. You'll be wasting the prop doing it that little n you'll only really getting use of the other esters. Not very productive advice on the sust, imo. OP obviously did some research.

deathdodger · Jul 28, 2012

RoidsR4m3 said:
I'd say for your first, keep the sus at 500mg-600 a week. Maybe 250mg mon and thurs for 500/week or 200mg mon, weds, and friday for 600mg/week. Also make sure you get some clomid in your pct. Trust me, your little guys will thank you. And how are your joints and at what daily dosage are you planning to run the winny at. I'm assuming 50mg/day... Other than that, for a first cycle, it's plain and simple. It's not harsh and should put some solid muscle on you.

Good advice.

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 28, 2012

BigD said:
Bump^^^

If you can, incorporate some hcg into your pct. Also, Winny for six at 50mg/day can be harsh on your liver, so as "always" recommended, add some sort of liver protection. I myself and the guys I prep always take essentiale forte and liv. 52. Just as a precaution. Also, you'd be amazed at what winny can do in four weeks if your diet is spot on, six weeks is fine but four will get you what your looking for, that is if your diet is spot on

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice. Good to know about the cycle length of winny. I wasn't planning on running the liver protection, so this will be a good add. Is there a certain bf% your guys shoot for in order to maximize the results of winny? As for the hcg, Ive heard/read a lot of good things about keeping your nuts churning, but I kind of want to run this first cycle and see how I recover from pct w some of the basics.

My diet has never been as dialed in as it has now. And diet has been something I've always had to be conscious of. I bulk easily but I also add a lot of Chubb when I bump up my calories. I also lose easily when I drop my calories below Maintanance. I've heard a lot about carb cycling, but I don't know exactly what it is. I will read about it. I started the lean gains/IF diet and it has been working pretty well for me. I think a lot of that has to do w how well it regulates insulin since carbs affect my diet so much.

Im pretty excited about running my cycle. Thanks again for all the advice.

DraculaMan · Jul 28, 2012

I did a cycle like this years ago but also ran Proviron 25mg ed until the end of PCT.

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 28, 2012

DraculaMan said:
I did a cycle like this years ago but also ran Proviron 25mg ed until the end of PCT.

How did it work out for you? I've read a lot of guys prefer test e and cyp, but that sust causes less water retention and bloat. That's why I decided on the sust.

But from what I've read it seems as if a lot of dudes knock sust these days.

Have you run other test bases since you ran your sust cycle? If so, how did they compare?

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 28, 2012

RoidsR4m3 said:
Ya, amps are a little harder to plan around. Well, I would say 500mg/week would be good enough to start. Trust me, if this is your first, you'll feel it. And for the pct, add the clomid with your pct. You should feel it working after day 1. Clomid feels like a tingling sensation down in your balls. Remember, Nolva will help keep your e2 to a minimum as your test levels are rebounding and clomid will help get your boys back working again. As for diet concerns, I'm a huge believer in carb cycling. It's done wonders for me and allot of other guys. If your carb sensitive, then make sure you get the majority of those post-workout so it's used up properly instead of it being stored as bf. And for fats, that's different from person-to-person. Try and get those from almonds/walnuts, avocados, fish/ fish oil, olive oil and such. The adex during cycle will help reduce e2 and some water weight from the longer acting esters in the sus. also, the last six weeks, your winny will help with that too. Remember, you are what you eat.... and with steroids, they amplify everything. so just make sure your eating clean and healthy. I can't give an exact macro ratio but if you know your body, listen to it. You'll start to see changes around weeks 3 and 4.

I hope this helps a little.

So if I do 2 amps a week - mon and thurs I think I will feel more comfortable with the dosing. 750 a week by running e3d I think is going a little over the top for a first cycle. I'm willing to forgo the benefit of the prop to play it a little more conservative.

But if I run mon and thurs I could extend my cycle out to 12 weeks. Since it takes to 4 weeks for the decorate to kick in, this might be a benefit. However, I've read a lot of articles saying the gains after week 10 in a cycle are negligible so unless you are a bb, it does r make sense to be on for more than 10 weeks.

Also, since it takes 3 weeks for the sust to clear my system, does that tequnically extend the cycle. I've always wondered that. So pin up to week 10, but sust does t clear system until week 13, do longer esters technically extend a cycle?

RoidsR4m3 · Jul 28, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
So if I do 2 amps a week - mon and thurs I think I will feel more comfortable with the dosing. 750 a week by running e3d I think is going a little over the top for a first cycle. I'm willing to forgo the benefit of the prop to play it a little more conservative.

But if I run mon and thurs I could extend my cycle out to 12 weeks. Since it takes to 4 weeks for the decorate to kick in, this might be a benefit. However, I've read a lot of articles saying the gains after week 10 in a cycle are negligible so unless you are a bb, it does r make sense to be on for more than 10 weeks.

Also, since it takes 3 weeks for the sust to clear my system, does that technically extend the cycle. I've always wondered that. So pin up to week 10, but sust does t clear system until week 13, do longer esters technically extend a cycle?

No, it doesn't "extend" the cycle, it just means that the half-life of those longer lasting esters are coming to an end. That's why you don't want to start your pct until a couple of weeks after your last shot. That way your body starts to turn on it's production of test with the help of your pct. My first cycle was sus, deca, and prop. I pinned sus at 500/week decca at 400/week and the extra prop I pinned an additional 100mg/week. I wasn't sure about everything I was doing at the time but I ate clean and it was an awesome cycle. Felt great and looked great. Also, do you have any sterile vials? you can get them anywhere on the net. I know quite a few guys who will take an hour or two and fill up a sterile vial with amps and then dose it from there. Also, if you are planning on running a liver protector(highly recommended) I really like liv.52 and cycle support by AI Sports. And for the 10-12 weeks, bro for your first, 10 will be plenty. My first was only 8 and I had amazing results. So if you go 10weeks, don't start your pct until the start of your 13th week.

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 28, 2012

Yeah I plan on running the liv 52. Gonna stick w 10 weeks. Great idea about the extra prop you ran to keep stable levels on sust. I never thought of that.

ashoprep1 · Jul 30, 2012

Tris10 said:
You're completely right about the prop in the sust. If you're not going to pin Eod, just run test e or c. You'll be wasting the prop doing it that little n you'll only really getting use of the other esters. Not very productive advice on the sust, imo. OP obviously did some research.

^^^

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 30, 2012

Alright, so as of right now I think I have two options since the sust is already on the way: I can transfer the amps into sterile viles as suggested. Or i can pick up some extra prop to make sure I got the prop in eod.

Since there is only 30 mgs of prop in each amp of sust, would it be wise to keep the dosage the same to keep bloods level when I ran the prop injections solo?

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 30, 2012

Bump^

Johnnyboy004 · Jul 31, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
Alright, so as of right now I think I have two options since the sust is already on the way: I can transfer the amps into sterile viles as suggested. Or i can pick up some extra prop to make sure I got the prop in eod.

Since there is only 30 mgs of prop in each amp of sust, would it be wise to keep the dosage the same to keep bloods level when I ran the prop injections solo?

Any of you guys have any experience or advise on the above? Want to keep the sust down too 500mg/week. Thinking about adding extra prop pins to keep the bloods stable and get some use out of the prop.

BigD · Aug 1, 2012

Both of these guys are giving good advice. Regardless of what esters you want to incorporate, you have sus already. So what you are trying to do is make a good stack out of what gear you already have. To give you an idea about prop, the half-life is usually four days. So this would overlap to your next pin. However, with only 30mg of prop I would say that that would only "Really" work for about 24hrs. Test prop is best shot every other day. However, this is your first cycle and I would only stick to 500-600mg/week like said above. And if you want for the sus, shooting it three times a week is not a bad idea. Sus will hold less water than C or E. What you could do is pre-load a 3ml syringe with 2mls of sus and 1ml of prop. Your new to this so there's no need to get to crazy on here. Regardless of what the half-lifes of all the esters in sus are, being that this is your first, you will grow.

RoidsR4m3 · Aug 1, 2012

Hey bro, if you don't mine, what gear do you have to work with right now. Don't list how much, just what do you have right now?

Johnnyboy004 · Aug 1, 2012

RoidsR4m3 said:
Hey bro, if you don't mine, what gear do you have to work with right now. Don't list how much, just what do you have right now?

Sust - belco
winny - alpha
adex - Astramzenica
Letro- Name brand
Nolva- was supposed to be name brand but got generic

Not planning to start till sept 1. So I would have time to add some prop if it is the best route.

Johnnyboy004 · Aug 1, 2012

BigD said:
Both of these guys are giving good advice. Regardless of what esters you want to incorporate, you have sus already. So what you are trying to do is make a good stack out of what gear you already have. To give you an idea about prop, the half-life is usually four days. So this would overlap to your next pin. However, with only 30mg of prop I would say that that would only "Really" work for about 24hrs. Test prop is best shot every other day. However, this is your first cycle and I would only stick to 500-600mg/week like said above. And if you want for the sus, shooting it three times a week is not a bad idea. Sus will hold less water than C or E. What you could do is pre-load a 3ml syringe with 2mls of sus and 1ml of prop. Your new to this so there's no need to get to crazy on here. Regardless of what the half-lifes of all the esters in sus are, being that this is your first, you will grow.

Thanks bro. I'd like to keep it simple. Most importantly, I just want to make sure I do it right. So I'm greatful for all the input.

RAINier · Aug 3, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
Sust - belco
winny - alpha
adex - Astramzenica
Letro- Name brand
Nolva- was supposed to be name brand but got generic

Not planning to start till sept 1. So I would have time to add some prop if it is the best route.

For your PCT, drop the erase and even DAA and use adex. Be careful with that winny, it'll be tough on your joints.
Don't worry about name brand vs generic if you're buying from a legit pharmacy.

Wanna give us a complete recap of what your planned cycle is now?

Johnnyboy004 · Aug 3, 2012

RAINier said:
For your PCT, drop the erase and even DAA and use adex. Be careful with that winny, it'll be tough on your joints.
Don't worry about name brand vs generic if you're buying from a legit pharmacy.

Wanna give us a complete recap of what your planned cycle is now?

Weeks 1-12 250 mon thurs
Weeks 8-12 Winny ed
Weeks 2-12 Adex .25 eod

Pct Nolva 40/30/20/20

What would the proper Adex dose be for pct if I use that instead of the erase and DAA?

*cut the winny down from 6 weeks to 4 as suggested by bid D and some others
*running the sust 250 mon thur to keep the dose at 500mg/week as opposed to 250mg e3d

I know I'm wasting the prop by going mon thurs. I don't feel comfortable transferring the amps into a sterile vile to run 200mg mon wed Friday. I'm new to this, and don't want to risk possible contamination in the transfer.

Johnnyboy004 · Aug 16, 2012

Alright bros, back to the drawing board. I'm thinking about cutting the winny out of my cycle and running either mast or primo with it. I love what I'm reading about mast and primo..e2 control, great for lower calorie runs, Increased sex drive, no dry joints like winny, less frequent pins, less sides, and in general how well liked primo and mast are.

My stats and goals are all above, price is not going to decide it for me, it's going to be all about results. In a head to head of winny vs primo or mast, what would you vets choose based on my stats and goals?

RAINier · Aug 17, 2012

Johnnyboy004 said:
Alright bros, back to the drawing board. I'm thinking about cutting the winny out of my cycle and running either mast or primo with it. I love what I'm reading about mast and primo..e2 control, great for lower calorie runs, Increased sex drive, no dry joints like winny, less frequent pins, less sides, and in general how well liked primo and mast are.

My stats and goals are all above, price is not going to decide it for me, it's going to be all about results. In a head to head of winny vs primo or mast, what would you vets choose based on my stats and goals?

Both winny and mast are great for drying you out (and baldness! Watch out if you or your family are prone!). Mast won't give you joint problems though. Primo is a little weak and generally expensive, you'll need a lot to get good effects (but it's a great compound at expensive high doses). Leave that out for cycle far in the future, and I suggest you leave mast for future cycles.

If you're bulking, use dbol. Otherwise, if you're on recomp or cutting, I suggest tbol (it's a dry dbol, best way to describe it) or winny. Tbol and winny are both orals, so there's an advantage over your other two options (mast and primo) right there for you, especially for a first time cycle when you don't want too many pins involved.

I would personally use tbol, no one I know has ever regretted that compound. Front-load it for the first 5-6 weeks of your cycle.

Have you already bought adex? If not, get aromasin instead. Aromasin is a suicidal inhibtor, adex isn't. Adex run for the first 14 days of PCT at 0.25 ED is good with nolva or clomid PCT.

RAINier · Aug 17, 2012

Also forgot to mention - winny is sort of anti-estrogenic. I wouldn't personally run adex during the same weeks as winny.

Johnnyboy004 · Aug 18, 2012

RAINier said:
Both winny and mast are great for drying you out (and baldness! Watch out if you or your family are prone!). Mast won't give you joint problems though. Primo is a little weak and generally expensive, you'll need a lot to get good effects (but it's a great compound at expensive high doses). Leave that out for cycle far in the future, and I suggest you leave mast for future cycles.

If you're bulking, use dbol. Otherwise, if you're on recomp or cutting, I suggest tbol (it's a dry dbol, best way to describe it) or winny. Tbol and winny are both orals, so there's an advantage over your other two options (mast and primo) right there for you, especially for a first time cycle when you don't want too many pins involved.

I would personally use tbol, no one I know has ever regretted that compound. Front-load it for the first 5-6 weeks of your cycle.

Have you already bought adex? If not, get aromasin instead. Aromasin is a suicidal inhibtor, adex isn't. Adex run for the first 14 days of PCT at 0.25 ED is good with nolva or clomid PCT.

Awesome advice. Thanks Rainier. Im going to look into the tbol. I am recomping so i would prefer a compound like tbol to the water weight ive seen guys get with dbol. I especially like the idea of the tbol front load since alot of guys say it takes about 3-4 weeks for the sust to start kicking in

I will save the adex for pct and pick up some aromasin.

Welcome back

Sust/winny stack. Please critique

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