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Adex question. High estradiol... numbers dont seem to add up.

TrenWreck

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Get Shredded!
Hey guys, before going to the chem supplier my stuff came from, I wanted to run this by everyone. I'm curious if others have run across this happening to them or not.

A little background is always appreciated, so here it is. I used AAS in my early 20's. Had a few estrogen-related sides (gyno, water retention), usually at higher doses. I noticed in the last cycle I did (a few years ago), I seemed a little more sensitive than before, but attributed it to a higher-dosed product.

I'm now almost 30, and after a few years off of all gear, I decided to do another cycle. I have been on 300mg of Test E per week for 7 weeks or so, I started noticing slight gyno around... week 4 or so, and began a-dex at .25mg ED, and 20mg Nolva. After a few days, it was worse, I increased to .5mg ED. I had blood drawn at week 6, at which point my Adex dosage was 0.5mg ED for over a week. My total test was a bit over 1300. My estradiol... 123. 123... on .5mg of Adex EVERY DAY.

I've since increased to 1mg of Adex every day. I've noticed maybe a slight reduction in libido... but basically that means I've come down from humping air, to only humping objects. Libido still isn't "low". Gyno has remained the same, still some visible water retention.

So what do you think guys? Those of you experienced with Adex: does it seem like this product is underdosed, or is it really possible I need more than this? Keep in mind... 300mg of Test E per week, 1 mg of Adex daily. Thanks everybody.
 
thats crazy... 300mg/wk test and .5mg/ED adex and your E2 is out of control....hate to say this but i think that adex is bunk bro.

Get some IMR Exemestane for your rats and never look back.
 
thats crazy... 300mg/wk test and .5mg/ED adex and your E2 is out of control....hate to say this but i think that adex is bunk bro.

Get some IMR Exemestane for your rats and never look back.

My thoughts, exactly. But I wanted to put it out there for opinions, just in case. The Nolva I'm using is IMR. The Adex isn't.
 
Nolvadex RAISES circulating Estradiol but blocks the E2 receptor in breast tissue.
 
Whatever your decision I would jump on it fast, you don't want any double D's to play with of your own!
 
The one time I had an actual lump I killed it with 25mg exemestane ED and 40mg nolva Ed. Was gone in less than a week.
 
Nolvadex RAISES circulating Estradiol but blocks the E2 receptor in breast tissue.

Those two go hand-in-hand though, right? Like it raises circulating Estradiol BECAUSE it keeps it from interacting with the receptor?

So that shouldn't keep the anastrozole from working to lower estradiol in the first place, right?
 
those two go hand-in-hand though, right? Like it raises circulating estradiol because it keeps it from interacting with the receptor?

So that shouldn't keep the anastrozole from working to lower estradiol in the first place, right?
lol
 
Those two go hand-in-hand though, right? Like it raises circulating Estradiol BECAUSE it keeps it from interacting with the receptor?

So that shouldn't keep the anastrozole from working to lower estradiol in the first place, right?

No dude people take AIs during PCT all the time for this exact reason.
 
No dude people take AIs during PCT all the time for this exact reason.

Ok. I've never used anything other than Clomid and Nolvadex for PCT.

But it just seems to make sense that if the anastrozole keeps your body from converting testosterone into estrogen, the estrogen has to come from somewhere.

So where does it come from? That's why I asked my above question.
 
Ok. I've never used anything other than Clomid and Nolvadex for PCT.

But it just seems to make sense that if the anastrozole keeps your body from converting testosterone into estrogen, the estrogen has to come from somewhere.

So where does it come from? That's why I asked my above question.

youre always going to have some amount of estrogen no matter what unless you crush it completely with massive doses of letro or something.
 
youre always going to have some amount of estrogen no matter what unless you crush it completely with massive doses of letro or something.

Oh, absolutely. That I understand, completely.

But what I'm looking at is that AI's reduce conversion to estrogen. So I was trying to understand how Nolvadex would just increase estradiol on it's own. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Apparently, some people would rather just get their chuckles than to try to help somebody. But that's their choice. They're entitled to it.
 
Oh, absolutely. That I understand, completely.

But what I'm looking at is that AI's reduce conversion to estrogen. So I was trying to understand how Nolvadex would just increase estradiol on it's own. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Apparently, some people would rather just get their chuckles than to try to help somebody. But that's their choice. They're entitled to it.

That I have no idea. Don't use SERMs anymore since I cruise and don't know anything about them lol.
 
Oh, absolutely. That I understand, completely.

But what I'm looking at is that AI's reduce conversion to estrogen. So I was trying to understand how Nolvadex would just increase estradiol on it's own. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Apparently, some people would rather just get their chuckles than to try to help somebody. But that's their choice. They're entitled to it.

What you posted previously by trying to figure out what Heavy said is right to me. The Nolva prevents the binding which in turn allows more of it to be freely circulating in the body. It doesn't create more estradiol. I also think it is kind of pointless to be running an AI during PCT. I can see from both points of view. How the little test someone has in their body, when trying to restart HPTA, needs to be protected and that there is a lack of test that can be aromatized substantially in the first place.

Taking an AI during the first portion of PCT makes most sense to me. I think a lot of guys on here generalize their PCT date (how close can you get without bloods anyway), so they might start it early. If you start it a little early, you will have quite a bit of test in you that can still aromatize and it would make sense to prevent that. After awhile, the test will clear and it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
 
What you posted previously by trying to figure out what Heavy said is right to me. The Nolva prevents the binding which in turn allows more of it to be freely circulating in the body. It doesn't create more estradiol. I also think it is kind of pointless to be running an AI during PCT. I can see from both points of view. How the little test someone has in their body, when trying to restart HPTA, needs to be protected and that there is a lack of test that can be aromatized substantially in the first place.

Taking an AI during the first portion of PCT makes most sense to me. I think a lot of guys on here generalize their PCT date (how close can you get without bloods anyway), so they might start it early. If you start it a little early, you will have quite a bit of test in you that can still aromatize and it would make sense to prevent that. After awhile, the test will clear and it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

I think the AI's in PCT became popular along with HCG usage (many used to use it during PCT instead of on cycle... some still do). I can see some application there. I just personally only used Clomid and Nolvadex in PCT, and never saw a need for anything else.

I appreciate you responding to my earlier inquiry.
 
No worries man.

I agree with the Clomid and Nolva only for PCT. Anytime there is an abundance of test, an AI should be used. HCG promotes test production, so it makes sense to use an AI.

If you ran your cycle through one of the trackers out there or built your own, you can see where your ideal levels are. If you still have double the test in your system than your baseline when you start popping your Nolva and Clomid, it would still make sense to take the AI, but after a few days the exogenous administered test levels drop so low that there doesn't seem to be a benefit.
 
Those two go hand-in-hand though, right? Like it raises circulating Estradiol BECAUSE it keeps it from interacting with the receptor?

So that shouldn't keep the anastrozole from working to lower estradiol in the first place, right?

If Nolva increases E2 (I haven't seen the data but assume it does if Heavy has a study on it) then I can't think of another mechanism besides exactly what you mention -- more circulating E2 as a result of receptors being blocked and preventing the normal drain of E2 out of the bloodstream.

Another possibility is that the studies were done on a natty population (most likely) and the Nolva had the effect of blocking E2 detection at the hypothalamus/pituitary thereby increasing test production and then E2 through aromatization... so your original E2 level gets boosted by the HPTA seeking to re-establish equilibrium. But... I didn't see the study.

What you posted previously by trying to figure out what Heavy said is right to me. The Nolva prevents the binding which in turn allows more of it to be freely circulating in the body. It doesn't create more estradiol. I also think it is kind of pointless to be running an AI during PCT. I can see from both points of view. How the little test someone has in their body, when trying to restart HPTA, needs to be protected and that there is a lack of test that can be aromatized substantially in the first place.

The goal is to kickstart that HPTA as hard as you can so it doesn't have doubts about its job. Use a SERM to block E2 detection, but also an AI to prevent E2 production in the first place. It should help the whole process.

I think the AI's in PCT became popular along with HCG usage (many used to use it during PCT instead of on cycle... some still do). I can see some application there. I just personally only used Clomid and Nolvadex in PCT, and never saw a need for anything else.

This, on the other hand, is a bad idea. HCG mimics LH and will therefore interfere with HPTA recovery. The point of recovery is to get your LH going naturally and that can't be done while you're injecting a mimic into the system. It will displace natural LH production since the HPTA will sense that it has reached equilibrium without producing as much LH as it should.
 
This, on the other hand, is a bad idea. HCG mimics LH and will therefore interfere with HPTA recovery. The point of recovery is to get your LH going naturally and that can't be done while you're injecting a mimic into the system. It will displace natural LH production since the HPTA will sense that it has reached equilibrium without producing as much LH as it should.

Definitely wasn't promoting the use of HCG in PCT. Just saying that a lot of people did it for a long time, and some still do. It was part of Scally's PoWeR PCT program. I think most guys now that use HCG use it in the same manner described in Swales new protocol.
 
Get Shredded!
Definitely wasn't promoting the use of HCG in PCT. Just saying that a lot of people did it for a long time, and some still do. It was part of Scally's PoWeR PCT program. I think most guys now that use HCG use it in the same manner described in Swales new protocol.

Yeah, I wasn't think that you were, was just commenting on that idea.

I'll have to look those up... been awhile since reading any of that stuff (but, no more PCT for me anyway). Didn't Scally re-think his HCG protocol advice, now eliminating it from PCT itself? I might be remembering that wrong though. Also, Scally seems to specialize in guys who have failed initial PCT badly and need some serious work to have hope of restarting, such as mega-loads of HCG. That's a different ball of wax than our standard smooth-and-optimistic protocols.
 
i use HCG/E3D for 12 days after last injection of cyp/enanthate. on day 15 i start clomid, while tapering off aromasin

Definitely wasn't promoting the use of HCG in PCT. Just saying that a lot of people did it for a long time, and some still do. It was part of Scally's PoWeR PCT program. I think most guys now that use HCG use it in the same manner described in Swales new protocol.
 
The goal is to kickstart that HPTA as hard as you can so it doesn't have doubts about its job. Use a SERM to block E2 detection, but also an AI to prevent E2 production in the first place. It should help the whole process.

I'm on board with what you are saying man. I just don't see the point in running the AI during the PCT because there is a lack of test to convert. I can see it being useful to prevent the buildup of E2, but there just seems to be a lack of testosterone during this time
 
i use HCG/E3D for 12 days after last injection of cyp/enanthate. on day 15 i start clomid, while tapering off aromasin

Yea, I actually think a very similar protocol is the best way to use HCG. But I guess what is "best", differs person to person, too.
 
I'm on board with what you are saying man. I just don't see the point in running the AI during the PCT because there is a lack of test to convert. I can see it being useful to prevent the buildup of E2, but there just seems to be a lack of testosterone during this time

I just hated PCT so much that I wanted to give the HPTA all the advantage it could get in order to get through it asap. Sure a SERM like Clomid does a decent job of blocking E2 at the glandular level but does it get all of it? May as well strangle the supply by blocking aromatase too. Same logic applies to using HCG up until PCT -- have those balls firing on all cylinders already rather than rusting away in a corner of the garage. All of these drugs are "optional" in the sense that you'll recover *eventually* if you're patient enough, but if you're impatient it's best to tend to all of them. I would even add proviron to the mix if I still bothered with PCT, in order to avoid the worst effects of the test crash.
 
Hey guys, before going to the chem supplier my stuff came from, I wanted to run this by everyone. I'm curious if others have run across this happening to them or not.

A little background is always appreciated, so here it is. I used AAS in my early 20's. Had a few estrogen-related sides (gyno, water retention), usually at higher doses. I noticed in the last cycle I did (a few years ago), I seemed a little more sensitive than before, but attributed it to a higher-dosed product.

I'm now almost 30, and after a few years off of all gear, I decided to do another cycle. I have been on 300mg of Test E per week for 7 weeks or so, I started noticing slight gyno around... week 4 or so, and began a-dex at .25mg ED, and 20mg Nolva. After a few days, it was worse, I increased to .5mg ED. I had blood drawn at week 6, at which point my Adex dosage was 0.5mg ED for over a week. My total test was a bit over 1300. My estradiol... 123. 123... on .5mg of Adex EVERY DAY.

I've since increased to 1mg of Adex every day. I've noticed maybe a slight reduction in libido... but basically that means I've come down from humping air, to only humping objects. Libido still isn't "low". Gyno has remained the same, still some visible water retention.

So what do you think guys? Those of you experienced with Adex: does it seem like this product is underdosed, or is it really possible I need more than this? Keep in mind... 300mg of Test E per week, 1 mg of Adex daily. Thanks everybody.

In your words, your sensitive to test or gyno prone. Why would you wait till week 4 to start an AI? An AI would have kept you in check from the get go. A SERM, will block the estrogen from the breast tissue not reduce your estrogen. You need a legit AI to reduce your estrogen. In your situation (being so sensitive) a serm most likely will still be needed, but will know more once you get an AI in you.

My preference is Aromasin. More user friendly, better on your cholesterol and it is very hard to crash your estrogen on it.

LowT
 
I'm on board with what you are saying man. I just don't see the point in running the AI during the PCT because there is a lack of test to convert. I can see it being useful to prevent the buildup of E2, but there just seems to be a lack of testosterone during this time

It really comes down to knowing your body, as we respond differently and more importantly our body chemistry is all different. Hence, why we all talk in guidelines or as i like to think of it as "starting points". Knowing your body comes only with running many cycles.

My friend came off of cycle and runs the same AI, as his history is an abnormal high estrogen. We just talked today, he has been off cycle a month and his labs show his estro is over 100. He slowed his AI and he started breaking out like crazy. Most likely a fluctuation in hormones. Back on a consistent AI, he is getting back to normal.

I know many guys here know more than me and can speak to this more scientifically, I'm greatful as I continue to learn. However, the jist of it is that we are all different. Listening to our body, having a full stock of ancillaries and the support/knowledge of the board.

LowT
 
In your words, your sensitive to test or gyno prone. Why would you wait till week 4 to start an AI? An AI would have kept you in check from the get go. A SERM, will block the estrogen from the breast tissue not reduce your estrogen. You need a legit AI to reduce your estrogen. In your situation (being so sensitive) a serm most likely will still be needed, but will know more once you get an AI in you.

My preference is Aromasin. More user friendly, better on your cholesterol and it is very hard to crash your estrogen on it.

LowT

Yea, I really didn't get into that enough in this thread, my apologies. I did a bit in my log. Basically, I have never had estrogen issues at lower doses of test (under 500mg for example). I was doing 300mg per week, with no ancillaries because I was having blood work done for my MedLab log. That was the only reason for not using an AI from the onset. But after a few weeks, i started having the gyno flare up, etc. I haven't had that problem at such a low dose before (so I may have had underdosed gear in the past... or I've become more sensitive).

But having been on an AI for about 2 weeks at the time of the blood draw, estradiol should have still be lowered significantly (estradiol has a half life of about 15 hours). Adding the SERM was damage control. .5mg ED of adex just seemed like a high dose to still have estradiol of 123 with test levels of 1325 ng/dl, so I wanted to see if anyone else had a similar experience, or if the adex seems to be underdosed.
 
I just hated PCT so much that I wanted to give the HPTA all the advantage it could get in order to get through it asap. Sure a SERM like Clomid does a decent job of blocking E2 at the glandular level but does it get all of it? May as well strangle the supply by blocking aromatase too. Same logic applies to using HCG up until PCT -- have those balls firing on all cylinders already rather than rusting away in a corner of the garage. All of these drugs are "optional" in the sense that you'll recover *eventually* if you're patient enough, but if you're impatient it's best to tend to all of them. I would even add proviron to the mix if I still bothered with PCT, in order to avoid the worst effects of the test crash.

I like your logic man. It covers the bases and I honestly don't see a negative to running an AI into PCT.
 
I like your logic man. It covers the bases and I honestly don't see a negative to running an AI into PCT.

If I still did PCT and then "natty", I'd probably run an AI *all* the time. In cycle, pre-PCT, PCT, and off-cycle. My natty levels aren't enough for me and the AI would serve to boost test by restricting the negative feedback system on the HPTA. Some guys get as much as 50-100% boosts this way. I'm not aware of any "test booster" products that are nearly as effective.

SERM therapy has similar success but Clomid is a bitch... can't imagine doing that full-time.
 
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