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1300 to 700 test levels.

JRotten

JRotten

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Get Shredded!
Friday will be 7 days since my last pin of testC and I expect to be around 1300. The following week I am going in to see my doc. I feel like 5 days from 1300 which is 12 days after last pin seems about right to put me at 650-700. I have been on 300mg/wk testE/C for 9 weeks now.

Thoughts?! You guys that know about pct might have good insight here. TIA
 
I wish I had the answer but I don't.

Interested in what others have to say.
 
Damgar said:
Friday will be 7 days since my last pin of testC and I expect to be around 1300. The following week I am going in to see my doc. I feel like 5 days from 1300 which is 12 days after last pin seems about right to put me at 650-700. I have been on 300mg/wk testE/C for 9 weeks now.

Thoughts?! You guys that know about pct might have good insight here. TIA
Click to expand...

What are you asking?
 
Results will vary from individual to individual. Good luck!
 
atmosfearless said:
What are you asking?
Click to expand...
I have an unexpected appointment with my doc who had agreed to take over my TRT previously and part of what she wants to do is a hormone panel, so it seems like a good time to go ahead and have her do that. I just want my T levels to be down around 6-700 ideally. I was going to schedule the appointment around the time I expect blood levels to be what I want her to see.
 
You usually post cool follow-ups. If you have time it would be nice to see the projected levels based on half life vs the actuals after your blood panel.

By the way, if you can spare the $60 or so and its important then maybe it's worth testing just T a couple days before your appointment and then rescheduling if you're out of range?
 
galois said:
You usually post cool follow-ups. If you have time it would be nice to see the projected levels based on half life vs the actuals after your blood panel.

By the way, if you can spare the $60 or so and its important then maybe it's worth testing just T a couple days before your appointment and then rescheduling if you're out of range?
Click to expand...


I can post the projected half lives if you guys think it would be useful
 
weizen said:
I can post the projected half lives if you guys think it would be useful
Click to expand...

Post it!

I have been looking at a variety of tables with half life of esters and so many are in disagreement I would like to see what you have.
 
good luck bro, this is exactly why i gave up trt with my doc at the time, having to have my levels where they needed to be every couple months just wasnt fun for me.
 
This would depend on what you believe the half life is. I built my own calculator that I use to track my cycles and the values can change depending on what inputs you want. It's all on Excel, so I can't post the whole document up here. I'll have to C&P that shit in a list.

I'll need date started, the pin schedule and doses (I would prefer specific days like Monday/Thursday if possible), and whatever half life you come to agreement on. Or give me different half lives you want me to use and I can post up some side by sides
 
weizen said:
I can post the projected half lives if you guys think it would be useful
Click to expand...

Skip Foursome said:
Post it!

I have been looking at a variety of tables with half life of esters and so many are in disagreement I would like to see what you have.
Click to expand...

Hope I'm not over-thinking this but I think these are the next steps:
  1. calculate test ester mg based on half life
  2. remove mass of ester portion (-30%)
  3. calculate serum level
 
I like where this is going. It would be nice to see if there is a good way to calculate this out. If we find one of the half lives used that yields results after being processed with your steps, I could also throw that formula on my calculator too. It would serve as a good guideline for Damgar for future cycles. Where are you getting your 30% figure from?
 
I have a feeling like this won't work. Maybe there is a step missing somewhere. I was converting 1300nd/dl to mg/ml and got 0.000013. Even if we reduce the molecular weight by the ester, there is still going to be something missing
 
Its an educated guess but at the end of the day the data is not enough. Many multiple injects, scar tissue and sterile abscesses make predicting release times sketchy at best.
 
I know some of this testosterone converts into DHT and E2. SHBG binds to testosterone and that level fluctuates. There must be more that happens to this test that doesn't allow it to be detectable. If you injected x amount of test and waited 7 days like in HI's protocol, you get an amount that equates to a ridiculously low level of test if you converted to mg/ml.
 
weizen said:
I like where this is going. It would be nice to see if there is a good way to calculate this out. If we find one of the half lives used that yields results after being processed with your steps, I could also throw that formula on my calculator too. It would serve as a good guideline for Damgar for future cycles. Where are you getting your 30% figure from?
Click to expand...

I like where this is going, too. :)

I took the molecular weights per mole 288.4/412.6 ~= 70%

refs:


weizen said:
I have a feeling like this won't work. Maybe there is a step missing somewhere. I was converting 1300nd/dl to mg/ml and got 0.000013. Even if we reduce the molecular weight by the ester, there is still going to be something missing
Click to expand...

That conversion is right. Lemme switch to my PC and try a rough approximation for peak immediately after initial pin just to see if it's ballpark.
 
Here is a chart that would *seem* closest to true values but not sure.

Suspensionwithin 1 hour
Acetate1 day
Propionate1 day
Phenylpropionate1-2 days
Butyrate2-3 days
Valerate3 days
Hexanoate3 days
Caproate4-5 days
Isocaproate4-5 days
Heptanoate5-6 days
Enanthate5-6 days
Octanoate6-7 days
Cypionate6-7 days
Nonanoate7 days
Decanoate7-8 days
Undeclenate8-9 days
UndecanoateApprox 20 days
 
heavyiron said:
Its an educated guess but at the end of the day the data is not enough. Many multiple injects, scar tissue and sterile abscesses make predicting release times sketchy at best.
Click to expand...

This does seem like more of a guess. There is a small percentage of the test that is converted. The SHBG doesn't bind to enough of it to reduce the numbers. I figured out that I was not accounting for the x amount of test being distributed throughout the entire blood stream, I was still comparing it to the x amount of mg's per 1 ml, but even accounting for that does not get the exogenously supplied test level low enough to compare side by side with the lab measurements.
 
Ok, those numbers look solid to me. I know wikipedia is not the best place to look for answers, but sometimes they sum things up a little quicker and give you a good lead, but 7% gets converted to DHT and .3% to estradiol
 
Get Shredded!
Skip Foursome said:
Here is a chart that would *seem* closest to true values but not sure.

Suspensionwithin 1 hour
Acetate1 day
Propionate1 day
Phenylpropionate1-2 days
Butyrate2-3 days
Valerate3 days
Hexanoate3 days
Caproate4-5 days
Isocaproate4-5 days
Heptanoate5-6 days
Enanthate5-6 days
Octanoate6-7 days
Cypionate6-7 days
Nonanoate7 days
Decanoate7-8 days
Undeclenate8-9 days
UndecanoateApprox 20 days
Click to expand...

Ok. I can try various numbers in the range that everyone always tosses out for the Enanthate or Cypionate. That will be easy. It just takes a couple minutes to set up the pin schedule, which I still would need from Damgar. The only two calcs I've seen online are befit4free and the steroid plot that shows the curve. Mine does both and you can change the half life. It just takes some patience to work the Excel, but once you get it, it's pretty simple
 
The formula vastly overestimates (1,000x) because it assumes that all of the ester is immediately available as base test. In other words, it's missing the time release effect due to the ester.

Attached image which models immediate effect after pinning but is missing the ester effect. I would attach the spreadsheet but it probably has my name in the metadata. Aheh.
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2015-03-03 at 6.18.28 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2015-03-03 at 6.18.28 PM.png
    28.8 KB · Views: 13
Skip Foursome said:
Here is a chart that would *seem* closest to true values but not sure.

Suspensionwithin 1 hour
Acetate1 day
Propionate1 day
Phenylpropionate1-2 days
Butyrate2-3 days
Valerate3 days
Hexanoate3 days
Caproate4-5 days
Isocaproate4-5 days
Heptanoate5-6 days
Enanthate5-6 days
Octanoate6-7 days
Cypionate6-7 days
Nonanoate7 days
Decanoate7-8 days
Undeclenate8-9 days
UndecanoateApprox 20 days
Click to expand...

That actually looks pretty good. Passes the smell test anyway. Except that the few studies I've seen on test-e and test-c show non-measurable differences in half-life (~5.5 days for both) despite the theoretical difference due to ester lengths. Small nit-pick.

Damgar said:
Friday will be 7 days since my last pin of testC and I expect to be around 1300. The following week I am going in to see my doc. I feel like 5 days from 1300 which is 12 days after last pin seems about right to put me at 650-700. I have been on 300mg/wk testE/C for 9 weeks now.

Thoughts?! You guys that know about pct might have good insight here. TIA
Click to expand...

In my own blood tests while in "free fall" (no more pinning or possible depot delays, just watching test-e decaying after a cycle) I've seen a 5.5 day half-life every time. I'm pretty sure this was without interference by any AI or HCG but not 100% certain.

The AI should push the test levels up a little by preventing aromatization that would otherwise eliminate some of the test, but this might be too small of an effect to measure (in men, anyway). HCG by contrast serves as a secondary source of fresh test from the testes so there should be significant interference.

Will you be using either of those during your pre-PCT? In either case, definitely post the results! I'd expect you to be at 700-750 after a 5-day free fall from 1300 -- i.e. not quite one half-life of decay.
 
galois said:
I would attach the spreadsheet but it probably has my name in the metadata. Aheh.
Click to expand...

Smart man. :)

Careful with pics too for similar reasons -- might have GPS coords, camera S/N, etc. Safest thing to do (IMO) is screen-snapshot and use the resulting relatively-clean image for any sharing purposes.
 
galois said:
The formula vastly overestimates (1,000x) because it assumes that all of the ester is immediately available as base test. In other words, it's missing the time release effect due to the ester.

Attached image which models immediate effect after pinning but is missing the ester effect. I would attach the spreadsheet but it probably has my name in the metadata. Aheh.
Click to expand...

I think the time release makes this tricky. The half life is not doubt taking effect as soon as injected, but how much of the hormone being available is the question. Unless I found some pubs on the time release effects and all that, this might be a little too much to process the data all the way to blood measurements
 
weizen said:
Ok, those numbers look solid to me. I know wikipedia is not the best place to look for answers, but sometimes they sum things up a little quicker and give you a good lead, but 7% gets converted to DHT and .3% to estradiol
Click to expand...

Nice find! I've always wondered what those conversion rates were and now we have some answers. So, while aromatization has an obviously huge, direct effect on how much E2 we have, it's negligible on T levels in any case. Even aggressive aromatizers should see no discernible effect on T.

I dug a little deeper and came up with this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913038/

The medicalese is mostly indecipherable to me. :( There's a chart showing T/E2 and T/DHT relationships, but while it verifies the 100:7 relationship of T:DHT, it also seems to show a 100:3 relationship of T:E2. I.e. 3% conversion and not 0.3%, a big difference. Can anyone see where I'm reading that wrong?
 
weizen said:
I think the time release makes this tricky. The half life is not doubt taking effect as soon as injected, but how much of the hormone being available is the question. Unless I found some pubs on the time release effects and all that, this might be a little too much to process the data all the way to blood measurements
Click to expand...

My feeling from reading the studies (and personal bloodwork) is that the depot half-life is about a day or 1.5 days in young healthy men without a history of pinning. This gets complicated by the presence of any scar tissue, extra-large depots (e.g. 4mL), and location (e.g. delt vs. glute). Those complications lengthen the depot half-life.

However, it shouldn't cause the "loss" of any compound since the ester isn't doing any sort of self-decay, but is waiting to get its ester clipped off by some enzyme. Until that happens, i.e. it gets out of the depot and into metabolically active tissue or blood, its normal ester half-life hasn't started.

That's my wiki-wisdom anyway... I did not go to pharm school.
 
chocolatemalt said:
Nice find! I've always wondered what those conversion rates were and now we have some answers. So, while aromatization has an obviously huge, direct effect on how much E2 we have, it's negligible on T levels in any case. Even aggressive aromatizers should see no discernible effect on T.

I dug a little deeper and came up with this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913038/

The medicalese is mostly indecipherable to me. :( There's a chart showing T/E2 and T/DHT relationships, but while it verifies the 100:7 relationship of T:DHT, it also seems to show a 100:3 relationship of T:E2. I.e. 3% conversion and not 0.3%, a big difference. Can anyone see where I'm reading that wrong?
Click to expand...

I would trust this over Wiki. I also got roughly 3%, but that was in a low dose. As the test increased, the slope was not as, which means the percentage converted appears to decline a point maybe. Still a good estimate though. I would accept between 1.5 and 3% for E2 conversion.

That was a nicer find
 
chocolatemalt said:
My feeling from reading the studies (and personal bloodwork) is that the depot half-life is about a day or 1.5 days in young healthy men without a history of pinning. This gets complicated by the presence of any scar tissue, extra-large depots (e.g. 4mL), and location (e.g. delt vs. glute). Those complications lengthen the depot half-life.

However, it shouldn't cause the "loss" of any compound since the ester isn't doing any sort of self-decay, but is waiting to get its ester clipped off by some enzyme. Until that happens, i.e. it gets out of the depot and into metabolically active tissue or blood, its normal ester half-life hasn't started.

That's my wiki-wisdom anyway... I did not go to pharm school.
Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense to me. Must be why that graph floating around here somewhere indicates the peak levels to be within a couple days after pin.
 
Still off by a factor of 10 but dialing it in. Going to set it aside for today. Sorry for the big images but I don't know how to create thumbnails here.

I factored in the effect of the ester and used chocolatemalt's 5.5 days for the half-life of test cyp. Since un-esterified test has a very brief half-life of 10 minutes we can split up time into 10 minute intervals (I called the intervals deca-minutes) and calculate the release of test during each block.

To calculate the release during a block we use the half-life to calculate the rate that test is produced during each block, which is the amount of test cyp "de-esterified"(?) since pinning minus the amount of test cyp de-esterified since pinning in the previous block.

Screen_Shot_2015_03_03_at_7_38_55_PM.png



Below, Chart 3 naturally follows the standard half-life curve but as I mentioned previously the scale is probably off by a factor of 10. Maybe those are the effects of SHBG, aromatization, ... ? Dunno, maybe someone knows more.
Screen_Shot_2015_03_03_at_7_21_54_PM.png
 
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