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Morray
06-14-2014, 06:45 AM
neeed some advice for deadlifts, killing my lower back. any suggests for a great bulking besides these, or a better form of it?

Scarsnbars
06-14-2014, 07:51 AM
I am/have been in the same boat bro. Try "rack lifts". Youtube them. Saves the back it seems to me at least, and focuses on just the lower back. Legs don't get the work, but i got some nice wheels anyhow.

jas101
06-14-2014, 08:06 AM
I got a coach who worked with me a couple weeks. Turns out my form was pretty good on the way up but not so much going down. At least once the weights got heavy. Haven't hurt my back dead lifting since. Back still gets to hurting when I have to work with concrete. Guess I need a coach for that. Lol.

JRotten
06-14-2014, 08:43 AM
It's probably your form but without seeing it I wouldn't hazard a guess. I know I used to squat the weight more than dead lift it. Dead lifts, squats, rows, pull-ups... They all actually cured my back pain. Go figure.

Akol
06-14-2014, 09:45 AM
It's probably your form but without seeing it I wouldn't hazard a guess. I know I used to squat the weight more than dead lift it. Dead lifts, squats, rows, pull-ups... They all actually cured my back pain. Go figure.

Same here. I used to have alot of back pain and correcting my form helped tremendously. I used to fear dead lifts because of prior back injuries (not related to lifting) but now I welcome them with open arms :cool:

bigsjunk
06-14-2014, 01:04 PM
Questions: are you using a belt? STOP IT! ARe you doing ancillary exercises? DO 'EM!!
reverse hypers, hypers with weight, stiff legged deads, GOOD MORNINGS (gm's are the king of exercises to strengthen mid, low, back issues)
WEIGHTED SIT UPS ON INCLINE BENCH

a weak core, in my experience, is almost always the component of pain and poor form.

BUT, three thumbs up for pulling til it hurts.

tgsaku
06-14-2014, 01:16 PM
If your gym has a trap bar, by all means use that. Takes a lot of stress off the lower back by allowing you to pull from a more advantageous position. I would take some time to assess the strength of your glutes and abductors. Those being weak can force the lower back to compensate taking on undue stress and "gluteal amnesia" is quite prevalent in our society as a result of our lifestyle. If that's not the case and you don't have to do deads then just stop. I know it sucks to cut out an exercise where we all get to lift big weight and slam shit on the ground but there is the possibility that you are not built for them. Aside from the trap bar, the rack pulls mentioned work great, zercher squats work a lot of the same muscles and rack pulls with a snatch grip will give your upper back some crazy depth and thickness.

Warriorblaze
06-14-2014, 02:33 PM
Uh.

Drop the weight.

/problem solved


Warrior

bigsjunk
06-14-2014, 07:04 PM
uh.

Drop the weight.

/problem solved


warrior

blasphemer!! Heresy!! Sacrilege!!

bigsjunk
06-14-2014, 07:11 PM
OMG!! Stop dead lifts? Lower the weight? Use a "trap" bar? I'M IN FUCKING BIZARRO WORLD!!!

In all seriousness, analyze your technique to determine if you are just sloppy. Then analyze perceived weak spots by working what's weak first in your workout.
You say your low back hurts. So, I ask, are you rounding your back in anyway? Lifting or lowering. Use the mirror and answer honestly.
If that's not the case. Are you using a belt? Take it off, THEN, it's ok ( I guess ;) ) to lower the weight BUT hit some good mornings, stiff deads, back extensions, WEIGHTED SIT UP'S (not crunches); preferably on an incline.
Also, are you doing ANY stretching? THis can help. Myself, I find, lower body stretching un-neccesary as I use extreme ranges of motion to avoid them.

River
06-14-2014, 09:03 PM
Legs 4-6" from the bar, ass down, chest up and out, look upward on an angle and... PULL BABY PULL!
the better your "posture" at the start the better the finish. And please oh please don't be one of those guys who feels he has to rock back like a wild horse at the top, drive your ass forward and squeeze at the top. Worked for me, helped me go up in weight and zero back pain

Dieseljimmy
06-14-2014, 09:09 PM
Get a good warm up. Get the blood going before any compound lift. Especially squats and deadlifts.

Take it easy on the dbol if applicable

Drink 1 lliter of water in the gym. Pace it and force it if need be.

drop the belt, straps and weight and get it right.

Clue up the money song.

let it rip.

Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 08:50 AM
neeed some advice for deadlifts, killing my lower back. any suggests for a great bulking besides these, or a better form of it?

Want some advice in deadlifts? Stop doing them! I work in physical therapy and we see so many facet joint and disk injuries from this terrible exercise. One of the therapists refers any deadlifts injuries elsewhere. It is a destructive exercise and really
Unnecessary


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bigsjunk
06-15-2014, 12:25 PM
Want some advice in deadlifts? Stop doing them! I work in physical therapy and we see so many facet joint and disk injuries from this terrible exercise. One of the therapists refers any deadlifts injuries elsewhere. It is a destructive exercise and really
Unnecessary

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BULLSHIT!
Don't do deads because they'll HURT? your back?
Tell that to Mr. Olympia, Franco Colombu.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/th_zpsc0575875.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/th_zpsc0575875.jpg.html)

I didn't think anybody bought into this myth any more.
I bet you think SQUATS ARE BAD FOR THE KNEES.
Tell that to Samir.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/squ_zpsac633309.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/squ_zpsac633309.jpg.html)


OP, do the adjustments that have been suggested and make that bar bend:

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/bend_zps0b1d14d9.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/bend_zps0b1d14d9.jpg.html)

Warriorblaze
06-15-2014, 01:36 PM
^^^ or ya know... Try a mixed grip instead of pulling with your tampon strings


Warrior

drizzydre8
06-15-2014, 01:44 PM
You must incorporate the legs in your deads! As soon as you hinge back you must transfer the load to your legs! Deads are a total body exercise not just lower back!

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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 01:49 PM
Ya because columbou did them that makes it safe? I work in rehab and see the same shit a lot and hear the same thing your saying until you blow your back out. Not saying it's guaranteed but it happens a lot.


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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 01:54 PM
BULLSHIT!
Don't do deads because they'll HURT? your back?
Tell that to Mr. Olympia, Franco Colombu.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/th_zpsc0575875.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/th_zpsc0575875.jpg.html)

I didn't think anybody bought into this myth any more.
I bet you think SQUATS ARE BAD FOR THE KNEES.
Tell that to Samir.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/squ_zpsac633309.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/squ_zpsac633309.jpg.html)


OP, do the adjustments that have been suggested and make that bar bend:

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag457/bigsjunk2/bend_zps0b1d14d9.jpg (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/bigsjunk2/media/bend_zps0b1d14d9.jpg.html)

Do whatever you want I don't give a shit. Fact is , bb'ers and football players get hurt doing it. If you're getting paid like your idols to do it that's a different story. We all know athletes will kill themselves for a paycheck, talk to an nfl player. Why risk it if you don't have to?


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drizzydre8
06-15-2014, 01:58 PM
Tr 71 I have to disagree with you only for the simple fact I use to suffer from sciatica until I started doing deads. Mind you my former is impeccable and don't go over 500lbs

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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 02:02 PM
Tr 71 I have to disagree with you only for the simple fact I use to suffer from sciatica until I started doing deads. Mind you my former is impeccable and don't go over 500lbs

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So you disagree with the fact I treat clients who've injured their backs doing deadlifts? Ok then. That's great that deadlifts cured your sciatica. Of course proper form is essential blah blah blah and bro science prevails here. Go ahead and do them, it's your body, I've seen enough injured athletes to know it's not worth the risk.


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drizzydre8
06-15-2014, 02:04 PM
No I disagree that it's a destructive exercise and it's unnecessary that is false if done properly it's very effective

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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 02:04 PM
I stand corrected, "it's not physically possible to injure a facet, annulus, protrude a disk or rupture a disk doing deads"


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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 02:06 PM
No I disagree that it's a destructive exercise and it's unnecessary that is false if done properly it's very effective

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And I also said it doesn't happen to everyone didn't i? I did deads and now I don't, I got hurt, most likely from bad form and I have a pre existing back injury from my hockey days so in my professional opinion it's not worth it.


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bigsjunk
06-15-2014, 02:14 PM
Hold on there TR71, I, sincerely, mean no disrespect. I just thought my post was tounge in cheek funny.
While you may see people injured from deadlifting to say the dead lift should just be dropped is, well, silly.
Did you engage these people to see if they were using piss poor form? Perhaps they went up in weight WAY to fast? Perhaps they started lifting with a belt to soon? Perhaps their knowledge of lifting fundamentals is equally piss poor?

I mean, since you have them at your disposal so to speak, why not educate them on how to build supporting structuers so they don't hurt themselves again? Tell them how to build a strong core. Tell them how to PROPERLY squat and deadlift.
I jumped on your statement because the deadlift PREVENTED me from having back surgery.
Short version: Hurt at work, Slipped disk, Surgeon needing to pay for kid's college. Me, HELL NO. I did the therapies. I talked to KOWLEDGEABLE people, such as yourself, and I changed the manner in which I lifted.
It hurt but not to the point of having to take narcotics but I spent 6 weeks with therapist, doing good mornings, hip raises, reverse hypers and when I got the new x-rays; no disc issues.
Admittedly, I had not crushed anything, soft tissue damage was negligble, but the disc was in line now and I was good to go.
(as an aside, at work, they did nothing to prevent such a disaster in the future)

I started doing, as suggested btw from the therapist, "good mornings". Til that time I'd thought them silly. I was wrong.
I'm 48, and I'll cycle out of deadlifting to do JUST good morning (3 plates 10 reps easy) for at least 3 weeks.

My, loong winded point, is that just saying "don't do deads because . . . ) isn't really helpful.
It's a great exercise if done properly. The same with squats. I've lived all over the U.S. and never a year went by, in some "gym" where some butthed would want to tell me I shouldn't squat "so low" or "so heavy" or I'd HURT MY KNEES. Bah, you're a professional, you KNOW that's bullshit.
There is certainly room for argument that an injury would be of such a nature that compressive lifts should be minimized or outright avoided but hell at least put up some alternatives.

Again, I thought my post would be seen more humorously and it wasn't posted to be disrespectful.

Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 02:26 PM
I do educate them on proper form, that's my job. Every person that has these type of injuries is educated on spinal stabilization exercises which power lifters are notoriously weak at. There is a misconception that I'm huge and I can lift a truck but I can't stand on one foot without my knee bending inward or can't recruit multifidus before queuing the large erector groups .each client is told what to do and then I make them do the exercise with an assistant in front Of a mirror, give them homework and guess how many do it? 1/10 maybe, and then they return with the same injury and they can't reproduce the stabilization exercises that I have them. Hard core athletes listen, pro athletes and college athletes listen, most do not. Te likely reason deads aided your recovery is that the common treatment for disc protrusions and annular tears is extensions. The problem with deads that I have from a biomechanical standpoint is the flexed position at the beginning of the exercise. Think squeezing a hard boiled egg between two fingers, the egg will squirt out posterior . Extensions cause the reverse to occur, it drives the disk material centrally which is why extension exercises are given for those type of injuries. Notice with good mornings th lumbar spine isn't flexed, it's actually hip rotation; however, the erectors still fire in extension to compensate which helps with disk issues. I have no issue with squats, I have alternatives for deads, just do extensions with hip rotation and minimize lumbar flexion especially if you know you are prone to lumbar strain, facet dysfunction and disk problems. And by all means make core stability a priority if you are lifting heavy. I rarely see guys doing any core work. Most people Think crunches are a core stability exercise. It gets frustrating in practice that's for aure


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David Moya
06-15-2014, 03:17 PM
Deadlifts are only bad for mentally and/or severely physically handicapped people...

Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 03:18 PM
Deadlifts are only bad for mentally and/or severely physically handicapped people...

There's an educated opinion


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David Moya
06-15-2014, 03:23 PM
It's the most primal lift. Picking up something heavy off the floor...
Seriously?.. get real...

Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 03:23 PM
See previous post


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Creepin' it Real
06-15-2014, 03:38 PM
NIOSH guidelines indicate that it takes roughly 3000 psi in the 90th percentile female to rupture a disc. If memory serves me correctly that's around 80lbs? Don't quote me in that but we did it in a simulator in ergonomics class 2nd year. That's why job classifications indicate people must be able to lift 50lbs to do a particular job. That's for a female by the way. The reason that standard was used is because people blow out there disks doing the most primal lift with great frequency. Bodybuilders and power lifters a are a different beast obviously and these standards are atypical for that population. My point is I've seen it happen a lot, why, don't know and honestly, people don't like to tell there therapist how they injured themselves because they don't want to get the gears from them. Train safe and hope for the best


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R3psForJ3sus
06-15-2014, 04:35 PM
Deadlifts should never kink the lower back up, if the lower back is hurting beyond muscle tenderness, you are doing it wrong. Its that plain and simple. Willing to bet 5040343434 dollars that your hips shoot up as the back rounds to break inertia, putting massive strain on the lower spinal sections. A strong core means a strong ability to weld the lower back in place. Try paused deadlifts, breaking inertia then pausing for 1 second and shoot up. Deficit deadlifts will get you stronger off the floor which means hips are lower when weight leaves the ground which means less strain on back.

Morray
07-03-2014, 11:15 AM
Got the deadlifts down! dropped some weight, not much, goodmornings helped too. My form was bad, I thought I was good, wow what a difference, thanks for the advice, saved my back!

Zyglamail
07-08-2014, 06:29 AM
neeed some advice for deadlifts, killing my lower back. any suggests for a great bulking besides these, or a better form of it?I love deadlifts, think they are an awesome lift! However there is also a good chance to hurt yourself if not done properly. Id recommend you get a coach to help with form first and foremost. Once thats dialed in you should be able to tell if low back is your weak link and then you can start doing various low back work like GHD back extensions, good mornings, RDL's, reverse hypers etc.

lightning14
07-08-2014, 07:10 AM
A video would help us point out any form issues but I'd wager on the issue being your hips are shooting up way to fast. As the others have said, drop your ass and pull.

JMB1911
08-16-2014, 11:41 AM
Deadlifts turned me into a newt. I got better.

They used to hurt me sometimes....found out I was relaxing my stomach too much on the way down. If I really focus on staying tight on the way down I don't have a problem.

Zaphod
08-17-2014, 02:09 PM
The same day I do deadlifts my lower back gets a little tender if I have to do a lot of bending and reaching at work. Aches just enough to say "Break time!" and get a little breath of fresh air.

Zyglamail
08-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Ya because columbou did them that makes it safe? I work in rehab and see the same shit a lot and hear the same thing your saying until you blow your back out. Not saying it's guaranteed but it happens a lot.


And just because you work in rehab doesnt make an exercise inherently bad.

A LOT of problems are a result of people doing deadlifts, I wont argue that BUT most who do them do not do them under the watchful eye of a coach, many lack strength in supporting areas and yet others lack proper mobility and/or technique. Unless your able to see exactly how all of your patients perform the deadlift then seeing the reults of them deadlifting means nothing at all.

Creepin' it Real
08-18-2014, 09:22 AM
And just because you work in rehab doesnt make an exercise inherently bad.

Me working in rehab has nothing to do with whether the exercise is bad. Doesn't make sense. The rest of your post is obvious and for the most part I agree. I'm not going to go over this topic again, if you read the rest of the discussion it's pretty much been covered

Pharaoh
08-19-2014, 12:49 PM
Try a belt, if not, don't blow your lower back for deadlifts. Deadlifts isn't whats gonna make you huge.

Zyglamail
08-20-2014, 04:41 AM
Try a belt, if not, don't blow your lower back for deadlifts. Deadlifts isn't whats gonna make you huge.

A belt is a crutch to allow you to lift more. You shouldnt be lifting what you cant lift raw or your putting unnecessary stress on your back.

That aside, deadlift are one of the most inclusive exercises you can do and as such cause a great amount of stimulation in the body which equates to a more dramatic strength/cns/hypertrophic response. Sure, deadlift alone wont make you huge BUT they will contribute more than any other single exercise.

Everyone has to work within their own limitations, if they cant do them safely pain free then they shouldnt be doing them.

ytown25
08-20-2014, 09:10 AM
I pick things up an put things down.

Warriorblaze
08-20-2014, 09:23 AM
There is no reason to be alive if you cant do deadlift!

kaoticsolja
08-20-2014, 11:19 AM
So not to hijack this thread... But I just recovery from an umbilical hernia... Anyone had one and gone back to deals and squats.... How long did you wait... Did you ever get back to 100%... Or do I just have to watch my recording of me doing 405 over and over and think. Damn I was just getting to the good stuff

Eat. Lift. Sleep. Repeat.

Firefighter33
08-20-2014, 11:35 AM
Well, the form is the main factor in deadlift.
Not all the lifters has a well form to do this, because some has huge lumbar packages (Benedikt Magnusson) for example.
To achieve a great deadlift first need to improve the technique, and gradually upping the weights.
Regards
FF

Warriorblaze
08-20-2014, 12:05 PM
So not to hijack this thread... But I just recovery from an umbilical hernia... Anyone had one and gone back to deals and squats.... How long did you wait... Did you ever get back to 100%... Or do I just have to watch my recording of me doing 405 over and over and think. Damn I was just getting to the good stuff

Eat. Lift. Sleep. Repeat.

I'll send you a vid this winter when I break 600 :coffee:

RinconVet
08-20-2014, 12:11 PM
So good mornings are good for back pain? Should I be doing these?

Zyglamail
08-20-2014, 04:14 PM
So not to hijack this thread... But I just recovery from an umbilical hernia... Anyone had one and gone back to deals and squats.... How long did you wait... Did you ever get back to 100%... Or do I just have to watch my recording of me doing 405 over and over and think. Damn I was just getting to the good stuff

Eat. Lift. Sleep. Repeat.

I had one repaired last summer. Doc asked if I lifted heavy stuff regularly and I told her of course, she asked how much I told her and if memory serves she said to take a good 8 weeks off from deadlifting. After that I spent 6 weeks easing back into the gym and have exceeded previous PR's and havent had any problems with my repair.

John Johnson
08-20-2014, 04:16 PM
My lower back only hurt when I'm juicing. My muscles become very tight and the pump hurt, I have to roll my back on golf balls to loosen it up. I didn't read everyone posting but maybe the pump or the muscles could also be tight as well. Just my .02 cent.

John Johnson
08-20-2014, 04:19 PM
I pick things up an put things down.

Like this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOSeOieLh7s

ytown25
08-20-2014, 04:47 PM
Haha :) hey that's my gym

ytown25
08-20-2014, 04:52 PM
My lower back only hurt when I'm juicing. My muscles become very tight and the pump hurt, I have to roll my back on golf balls to loosen it up. I didn't read everyone posting but maybe the pump or the muscles could also be tight as well. Just my .02 cent.

I kinda agree with this and feel the juice makes my lower back tight as well. kinda wonder if they threw some dbol in my test. I just stretch a lot and hyperextensions. I really feel stretching is really important as well as warming up really good

Bigjim5
08-21-2014, 10:32 AM
Poor stability, poor mobility and poor technique makes deadlifts potentially problematic and dangerous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing heavy deadlifts as long as everything is firing properly, solid alignment, neutral spine and plenty of intra-abdominal pressure to stabilize the spine upon initiation of the pull. It is a primal movement but not everyone is physically conditioned to lift heavily off the floor with solid recruitment patterns. Most do not but I've gotten many who experience chronic lower back pain to add realiatively heavy deadlifts to their fitness program. Why do u do this? Because it is a powerful exercise that creates physical and metabolic adaptations that illicit change in one's physique and movement system. My 2 cents!

TBJ
08-21-2014, 01:37 PM
I really fucked myself up trying to do heavy deads with shitty form four years ago. I pay for it every once in awhile, hurtsssss

Bigjim5
08-21-2014, 06:08 PM
Hence, deadlifts get a bad name because too many ill-equipped people trying to pull too much weight from a range that they are unable to stabilize properly through. Rack pulls are are great range modification that I use to progress my clients through a they improve their ability to stabilize and move.
Poor motor control due to muscular assymetrys and a moment pattern dysfunctions will stop you in your tracks with potential long term, harmful effects.
If you do not know how to hip hinge properly or cannot control it, do not attempt heavy deadlifts! Ego is a killer in this area.