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Possible gyno without AS?

carpenter4life71

carpenter4life71

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Hey everyone. This is a little weird but I seem to be getting fluid or fat depositing on the lower part of my chest and I am not cycling. I am taking a test booster I got from GNC and it seemed to work ok. I had some Nov left over from a cycle and started taking that a couple days ago to see if it would correct this retention. Its not a hard substance like gyno but since I am eating well, incorporating cardio into my workouts and loosing fat around my waist i thought it was a little weird I was retaining fluid on my chest.
This is a little embarrassing but with summer approaching I really don't want man tits!
Anyone run into this problem? Or does anyone have any input on this?
 
I am no doctor by any means but, I am pretty sure some men can get gyno even without being on cycle. I would go to a doctor and get it checked it.
 
What's your age Carp?


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It is very possible to have gyno without using steroids. Gyno exist because of high amounts of estrogen in the blood. Now, the aromatase enzyme is found in higher concentrations when body fat is higher. Which is why many obese men actually have gyno. And this also explains pubertal gyno.See this study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12014513
Now people that use a substance to increase testosterone levels(AAS, DAA, test boosters) are also prone to developing gyno. More test, means more estrogen made by the aromatase enzyme. Which is why many users use an Aromatase Inhibitor or AI, whenever using a testosterone boosting substance, or one that converts to estrogen. If you are really worried about it, do these things.

Stop what ever you are taking
Get blood work done on your hormonal levels. I recommend estradiol, and testosterone levels. More is better here
SEE A DOCTOR, he will probably recommend blood test
If it is gyno, and he recommends surgery. Fire back with these two studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3071351/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238910
These two studies showed that SERMs namely,tamoxifen and raloxifen were shown to reduce gyno 81-90% over a 1-9 month period, with no side effects or return shown after a 3 year follow up period.

Would you rather take pill for 1-9 months or surgery which will most likely have a recovery time of 1-3 months.(don't quote me on the recovery time)

Here's a snapshot from the study, which shows usefulness of gyno removal methods.

AuthorSample sizeInterventionsResults
Prado1625minimally invasive surgeryAll had good results with no complications or need for revision
Handschin17100 (160 procedures)subcutaneous mastectomyAll had good results, revision rate 7% and early surgical complication rate 31%
Alagaratnam186140 mg of tamoxifen daily for 1–4 months80% complete regression. No long-term side effects over a follow-up of 36 months
Lawrence19383- to 9-month course of tamoxifen or raloxifeneBoth groups had significant reduction in breast size. No side effects in any patients
Derman2037tamoxifenPain and size reduction was seen in all patients


In the end, I really hope you don't have gyno, and just have fat stuck in your chest.
Best of luck


-
 
Last edited:
well if it makes you feel any better Im one of the lucky ones that got gyno as a teenager. Didnt do aas and didnt touch any boosters or supps.. shit just happens. Im lucky in the way that its acute and not a full blown bitch tit. but I know its there and I hate it. Will have it taken care of sometime in the future.
 
KCBARBELLJOE said:
It is very possible to have gyno without using steroids. Gyno exist because of high amounts of estrogen in the blood. Now, the aromatase enzyme is found in higher concentrations when body fat is higher. Which is why many obese men actually have gyno. And this also explains pubertal gyno.See this study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12014513
Now people that use a substance to increase testosterone levels(AAS, DAA, test boosters) are also prone to developing gyno. More test, means more estrogen made by the aromatase enzyme. Which is why many users use an Aromatase Inhibitor or AI, whenever using a testosterone boosting substance, or one that converts to estrogen. If you are really worried about it, do these things.

Stop what ever you are taking
Get blood work done on your hormonal levels. I recommend estradiol, and testosterone levels. More is better here
SEE A DOCTOR, he will probably recommend blood test
If it is gyno, and he recommends surgery. Fire back with these two studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3071351/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238910
These two studies showed that SERMs namely,tamoxifen and raloxifen were shown to reduce gyno 81-90% over a 1-9 month period, with no side effects or return shown after a 3 year follow up period.

Would you rather take pill for 1-9 months or surgery which will most likely have a recovery time of 1-3 months.(don't quote me on the recovery time)

Here's a snapshot from the study, which shows usefulness of gyno removal methods.

Author
Sample size
Interventions
Results
Prado16
25
minimally invasive surgery
All had good results with no complications or need for revision
Handschin17
100 (160 procedures)
subcutaneous mastectomy
All had good results, revision rate 7% and early surgical complication rate 31%
Alagaratnam18
61
40 mg of tamoxifen daily for 1–4 months
80% complete regression. No long-term side effects over a follow-up of 36 months
Lawrence19
38
3- to 9-month course of tamoxifen or raloxifene
Both groups had significant reduction in breast size. No side effects in any patients
Derman20
37
tamoxifen
Pain and size reduction was seen in all patients


In the end, I really hope you don't have gyno, and just have fat stuck in your chest.
Best of luck


-
Click to expand...
Thanks KC that's some very good info! Im not sure what the sample size means above. I have some Nolvaldex 10mg caps...would it be useful to take one a day for now? Or should I take tamoxifen or raloxifen? Where would I get these? Thanks
 
The subject size is that amount of people used in the study. As per the third study I would recommend 40mg of tamoxifen (brand name nolvadex) daily until it's better. This is a long process, it won't be overnight but will help. I can't find a solid answer on the raloxfiene, google would probably be your friend there. Most of what I have found was 60mg ED all the way to 150mg. I would start at 80mg personally.

Just about every single one of our sponsors carries tamoxifen/Nolvadex. The question boils down to UGL, Research grade ,or pharma. Check out the sponsor section.
Here's some recommendations.

I HAVE NO AFFILIATION AND HAVE NOT USED ANY OF THESE PRODUCTS, I CANNOT VOUCH FOR QUALITY. JUST LOOKS FOR TO ME, AND WHAT I WOULD USE IF NEEDED.


MJ Research-Capsules or liquid suspension, Research grade
Steroidforyou-Pharma grade PM warriorblaze, he is a rep
Domestic-supply Pharma grade as well, murf23 is their rep
 
KCBARBELLJOE said:
The subject size is that amount of people used in the study. As per the third study I would recommend 40mg of tamoxifen (brand name nolvadex) daily until it's better. This is a long process, it won't be overnight but will help. I can't find a solid answer on the raloxfiene, google would probably be your friend there. Most of what I have found was 60mg ED all the way to 150mg. I would start at 80mg personally.

Just about every single one of our sponsors carries tamoxifen/Nolvadex. The question boils down to UGL, Research grade ,or pharma. Check out the sponsor section.
Here's some recommendations.

I HAVE NO AFFILIATION AND HAVE NOT USED ANY OF THESE PRODUCTS, I CANNOT VOUCH FOR QUALITY. JUST LOOKS FOR TO ME, AND WHAT I WOULD USE IF NEEDED.


MJ Research-Capsules or liquid suspension, Research grade
Steroidforyou-Pharma grade PM warriorblaze, he is a rep
Domestic-supply Pharma grade as well, murf23 is their rep
Click to expand...

Thanks KC! I have checked out anabolic America awhile ago. You said you had a log there?
Thanks for the recommendations above man. Ill check em out.
 
IML Gear Cream!
carpenter4life71 said:
Thanks KC! I have checked out anabolic America awhile ago. You said you had a log there?
Thanks for the recommendations above man. Ill check em out.
Click to expand...
Yes I do have a log over at AA and no problem as ways here to help.

Get2daChoppa! said:
Couple protocols and info for ya brother.

http://www.everydayfitness.net/gynoprevention.shtml


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Click to expand...

Choppa, let me first state I have never had gyno or tried to reverse gyno using any method, be it SERMs, AIs, radiotherapy, or surgical removal. How ever based from what I have read in cynical studies published on the National Center for Biotechnology Information website (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/) I cannot agree with the statement below

"This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your Nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno, let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR gyno. If you are running nolva as your anti-E and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but Letrozole must begin ASAP. "

Let me address this part of the statement,"Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your Nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently."

The first published study I could find was done in 1987 here is the recap source-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3664552
Abstract

Sixty-one Chinese men with idiopathic gynecomastia were treated with 40 mg of tamoxifen daily for one of four months (median, two months). Eighty percent had complete regression of their breast swelling. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed over a median follow-up period of 36 months.

The second study was published in 2004 source-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238910
Abstract

OBJECTIVES:

To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.
STUDY DESIGN:

Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).
RESULTS:

Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.
CONCLUSION:

Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

And the third study was published in 2003 source-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14719418
Abstract

We evaluated the efficacy of the tamoxifen treatment in 37 patients with pubertal gynecomastia. All had distinct, easily palpable breast swellings with a diameter of over three cm. Pain, tenderness, and swelling associated with gynecomastia were reported by six patients. Eight of the patients were obese. One patient also suffered from varicocele. Pain and size reduction was seen in all patients with tamoxifen treatment. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed. The dose of tamoxifen was increased in three patients due to poor response. Two of the treatment group had recurrence problem at follow-up. We did not need to refer any patient to surgery. Tamoxifen treatment is relatively non-toxic, may be beneficial and we think it should be considered for pubertal gynecomastia.

All three of these studies showed a reduction of gyno up to 85% when only using 40mg-60mg of Tamoxifen(Nolvadex) daily for a period of 1-9 months.

Again, let me state CLEARLY I have never had gyno or put any gyno reversal/removal methods into practice. Everything I know about it is ONLY from reading published clinical studies.

Choppa in no way is this an attack at you. Please do not see it that way.

 
^KC nah brother no offense taken at all homey! Really all I was trying to do was give our brother a letro protocol too. Everyone responds to medications differently so really I just wanted our brother to be informed of ALL available information and protocols. My line of work deals with medicine and some medications just simply won't have the same effect on an individual as it would for others. I'm a huge believer in backing up treatments with clinical studies that are statistically significant. I have seen brothers use Nolva for gyno as it develops (albeit higher doses). I just wanted Carp to have another resource to review. It's all good KC bro


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Thanks for understanding, I just didn't want you to think I was attacking you. And yes, three studies DOES NOT equal works for 100% of the world. That is true. What works for me may not work for you. Also my post was not saying Letro wouldn't reduce gyno, it was just refuting the comment about how nolvadex wouldn't.
 
Completely understood bro. Thank you for bringing those studies to us also. I'm big on evidence based clinical studies. Props bro


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All good brother. Hope you get it sorted out my friend


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I've tried a couple test boosters from gnc. Every one of them made me start developing gyno. Specially the cellucore one. Do the old gnc loop hole trick we were discussing the other day and just return the rest of it. Any gain I saw from the gnc shit was minimal my dude. (Not knocking any of you gnc lovers) just don't think it's worth it when u hardly grab any gains.
 
Pop over to oly or mlg big guy. They'll treat you way better then GNC. Also.... On that note stop shopping at GNC. Order your shit from bb.com or allstarhealth
 
Bb.com is stooooopid fast shipping.


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Man fuck GNC. I hate dealing with their fucking sales people. Always trying to fucking push "wheyobolic XTREME 60". But only take one scoop cause your body can't digest more than 20 grams. Also make sure you pick up that "ripped,cut, and lean stack 90x" for summer brah. Like 10-20% of the time I have had good experiences. Usually not. I started going to vitamin shoppe(they don't push bullshit on you) or I buy supplements online. Shout out to divine protein. Nothing taste better.
 
Haha man go do some cardio or something lmfao I'm trying to blast my arms presently :jerkit:


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bhollie100904 said:
I love them...almost as much as I love you! :kiss:
Click to expand...
jiujitsu.jpg



YOU LOVE ME!
 
AWWWWWW!!!!


I am going touch myself!

- - - Updated - - -

DAMN!...I think we got off topic a bit...hmmmm...weird!
 
We've just completely de-railed two threads haha


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Did I say rail? Yes plz


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