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First Cycle(s)? Not your granddad's cycle!

ThatSwoleKid

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Get Shredded!
Hello Community,

This will be my first cycle but it will be rather different than most cycles done in terms of length. I know most first cycles are a 10-16 week test e cycle with an AI inhibitor and basic clomid & nolvadex pct. I cannot start pinning until next year (august 2014) at the earliest and my 21st birthday is fast approaching. Yes, my natty levels are rather high but I do want to take it to the next level. I'm doing this type of cycle as I read that cycles of this length have a good gains vs. sides ratio. Lemme know what you think!

4 Weeks Tbol 60mg ed

4 Weeks off

4 Weeks Tbol 60mg ed, Var 20mg ed

4 Weeks off

4 Weeks Tbol 60mg ed, Var 40mg ed

Done

Yes, orals only isn't the best for gains BUT i'm not looking for serious size as I am happy with where i'm at. I have a post in the Welcome section if you feel inclined to check that out. What i am looking for is 5-10 lbs of lean muscle WITH the hard, dry look of fitness models. I have leaned down before (sub 8%) and felt a lot less energy as well as androgenic regions (pecs and delts) shrinking. I'm pretty sure i did it right as I lost 1 pound a week for 3 months which isn't anything crazy, just a minor caloric deficit. This is supposed to help with that.

Another reason i wanna do this is because Tbol is a good nitrogen retention agent and I eat like a horse (srs). Two-Three BIG poops everyday (No, not ma proteins!). The main question I have is does anybody have experience with this type of cycle and how much (if any) PCT is required as neither should shut me down hard after 4 weeks. I was thinking low dose nolvadex for a week (50-25 mg). Got any suggestions?

Lastly, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a source website here but lets SUPPOSE i found a site to buy raw tbol, var, and dex powder (cheap!) in increments of 1g. Lets also SUPPOSE that im really good with the necessary math and calculations. Can i mix them with creatine monohydrate (put in the same tin) then, once in the morning and once at night, mix a scoop with water so that im getting the dose evenly throughout the day. Any problems with this?

Thanks guys,
ThatSwoleKid
 
I can tell just by the way you type and your retarded cycle you have come up with that you are not mature enough, believe everything you read, and that you're here for suggestions but already have contradictions to other peoples opinions to try and convince yourself into believing what you have come up with is actually good.
And why cant you start pinning until 2014? You really think 9 months from now is going to make a fucking difference? Sounds to me like you're a fucking pussy and scared of needles. You probably are going to get bashed for saying your only 20 and want to cycle, this I dont have a problem with but your retarded cycle and over thinking it I do.
You also are asking if you can mix creatine, tbol, anavar, and arimidex raws all in one (which is the dumbest shit I ever heard of) just so you have to take 1 thing so you mentally think that your not doing yourself any harm by saying oh its not so bad im only taking 1 thing! Get real BRO
 
Sudz is being pretty harsh, but most of what he said is spot on.

Wait until your older, and stick to the classic test-only or test and a mild oral cycle before you even try experimenting/thinking you know what is best for you. The entire idea of taking AAS is to push yourself harder than ever, even if you AREN'T at your natty limit. Taking anything that can permanently harm you for a "small boost" if you're happy where you're at isn't a good idea. Anabolics are really all or nothing, no matter how much you want to put on or how hard you want to push yourself.
 
To Console:
You are saying that just 4 weeks of the proposed cycle is enough to do permanent harm? How so? And yes, I would like just a "small boost" to retain the androgenic look (chest and shoulders) while i cut down. Do you have any personal experience or knowledge about cycles of this length? (for sides and PCT as well). Would you suggest wait until I can pin and do three four-week test prop cycles or should I ditch the 4 week idea all together?

To Sudz:
Thanks for being so negative and providing zero information I didn't already know. Can you tell me why mixing tbol powder with creatine is such a bad idea? Do they mix unevenly? Do they react chemically? My guess is no and that it is safe but i just wanted to ask and see if anyone has done it. Also, i was refering to nolvadex powder for PCT as why would i need an AI for tbol and/or var?
 
If you only want 5-10lbs of muscle, AND you're only 20...

Skip the gear and get your program and diet in check. There's no way you're at your natural limits yet.

You're only going to catch hell on here asking about oral only cycles.


Warrior
 
Look Kid I don't mean to come off so condescendingly but you're opening yourself up to some scrutiny. If your going to use AAS just do yourself a favor and pin test E or C for your first cycle. Keep it very simple and only 1 compound so you know how your body will react to it. And mixing creatine powder with tbol powder is just pointless, just take them individually. It seems like you have found a source offering raws and that maybe why your wanting to do such an asinine cycle. But remember that your tbol will probably be dbol, and your anavar is most likely going to be winstrol. You can test these with www.labmax.ca unfortunately they don't tell you how much of the active ingredient is inside but it will tell you if it is legit. Im sure I could purchase anavar from 5 different sources on this forum and they will all come back negative, but positive for winstrol. Take it for what its worth. Read! Learn! Most importantly use your critical thinking skills and be a skeptical thinker.
 
5-10 pounds can easily be attained through diet and training at your age.


With that said, if you were to do a cycle (against most of the recommendations here), I would say not to do the posted cycle and to go with the basic test e cycle (maybe along with some other things to control bloat). You'll get leaner gains. Example:

Test E 500mg (250mg twice a week)
Proviron 50mg ED
Dbol kickstart if you want (you may bloat more with it but it can help jumpstart gains)
Throw in an AI (aromasin is what I prefer)
you'll gain your 5-10 pounds easily...
I wouldn't recommend more than Test E for a first cycle because you need to know how you react. But since you seem set on cycling something at some point...

But since you have to wait until August 2014 to pin (curious as to why?) just wait until then to take anything if you choose to do so. You should be able to gain the weight you want naturally by then...

Personally, I would hold off until at least then and then choose what you want to do and where you want to go from there. Patience is key and can be frustrating. But you're still young and can gain what you want without taking anything...

My $0.02.
 
Thanks for the great response, most in favor of a basic 10 week Test E cycle (for good reason too). Since Sudz did it, i guess i can put sources up here. I was planning on getting the powders from http://www.qualityraws.com/ . Anyone used them?

To narrow down the question, does anyone have experience or knowledge with short vs long cycles?

Many people may also be assuming the wrong things about me, so I will try to clarify. I have been working out for 4 years. As a hard-gainer, I put on 40lbs (20,10,10,5) during this time. For the last two years, diet has been spot on. Luckily, i've been able to eat 4000-5000 kcal every day and what my body doesn't want, it gets rid of (low body fat no matter how hard I try). I also don't believe in overtraining and this has helped me make some great gains (strength and weight) and push through the unhappy phase as the serationin receptors upgrade (resulting in more strength). I am 6'0" 188 lbs, 12% or less bf, 225 incline bench, 400 deadlift, 870 legg press and have been researching AAS for the last year and a half. The reason I don't think this is a terrible idea despite what everyone is saying is because of this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/216/beforeafteralin.jpg/ . He did 60mg tbol for 6 weeks. I look a lot better before and am hoping to come out looking like a fitness model (as well as some strength gains).
 
Mixing the Raws like that is a terrible idea unless u mean 1 batch per day. 20mg of anything is a tiny fucking amount. The only way if suggest something even close to that would be to mix and cap right away.

Orals only? 4 weeks on 4 weeks off? 20mg var? That's a good woman's dose but that's about it. U won't notice shit off 20mg var unless u are a woman.

I also don't like the idea of orals for a 1st time unless its var or proviron.

Do 500mg test for 8-10 week. Run an ai. If u wanna add var for 4 weeks at the end of it fine. Do a pct.....or don't bother.
 
^^^ to clarify I mean make a batch of 24 capsules size 00 and Capp them. Not make 1 capsule lol.
The only accurate way to measure amounts that small u will need a scale that measure down to 0.000 decimal point.
 
IML Gear Cream!
Like some of the guys have been saying, there's much better and stable cycles for you to consider. Just like BBers don't pyramid cycles anymore, it's equally useless to stagger a cycle since you're basically wasting a week every time you come back on. There's not way around the needle man, it's the "norm" for a reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mixing the Raws like that is a terrible idea unless u mean 1 batch per day. 20mg of anything is a tiny fucking amount. The only way if suggest something even close to that would be to mix and cap right away.

Orals only? 4 weeks on 4 weeks off? 20mg var? That's a good woman's dose but that's about it. U won't notice shit off 20mg var unless u are a woman.

I also don't like the idea of orals for a 1st time unless its var or proviron.

Do 500mg test for 8-10 week. Run an ai. If u wanna add var for 4 weeks at the end of it fine. Do a pct.....or don't bother.

dude i highly doubt he could even cap. that requires a lot of supplies and space that a 20 year pimply faced kid just doesn't have. not to mention math, consistency and attention.

i think he was talking about making a something like a pre-workout and mixing it in a shaker. if that's what you were talking about kid, don't do it. you clearly have no idea how small 40 mg of powder is. you will not be able to get an even dilution of steroids with creatine powder. some "scoops" will have almost no gear and some will have WAY more than you would want to consume. all around a bad idea.

i too vote test e 500mg/week with ancillaries (ai and pct). if you really want to fuck with raws make a LIQUID solution. it's way easier and will be more accurate for you.


your proposed cycle is retarded. just sayin'
 
dude i highly doubt he could even cap. that requires a lot of supplies and space that a 20 year pimply faced kid just doesn't have. not to mention math, consistency and attention.

i think he was talking about making a something like a pre-workout and mixing it in a shaker. if that's what you were talking about kid, don't do it. you clearly have no idea how small 40 mg of powder is. you will not be able to get an even dilution of steroids with creatine powder. some "scoops" will have almost no gear and some will have WAY more than you would want to consume. all around a bad idea.

i too vote test e 500mg/week with ancillaries (ai and pct). if you really want to fuck with raws make a LIQUID solution. it's way easier and will be more accurate for you.


your proposed cycle is retarded. just sayin'

Trust me, my math and science skills are up to par for a task as simple as obtaining a desired concentration. If I mixed in enough tbol with creatine so that there were 60 scoops, each with ~30 mg of tbol, then I would be getting 60mg tbol per day (1 scoop in the morning, 1 scoop at night). Shake well only once (since densities are comparable) and they should be evenly distributed. I do get that everyone is saying that the cycle is retarded but this was from 60mg tbol ed for 6 weeks. I look a lot better than the before pic so I should have a better after. That being said, I will start pinning test prop august 2014 but can't use needles until then. End goal, looking similar to Thor. Any specific advice regarding shorter (4 week) cycles?
 
Trust me, my math and science skills are up to par for a task as simple as obtaining a desired concentration. If I mixed in enough tbol with creatine so that there were 60 scoops, each with ~30 mg of tbol, then I would be getting 60mg tbol per day (1 scoop in the morning, 1 scoop at night). Shake well only once (since densities are comparable) and they should be evenly distributed. I do get that everyone is saying that the cycle is retarded but this was from 60mg tbol ed for 6 weeks. I look a lot better than the before pic so I should have a better after. That being said, I will start pinning test prop august 2014 but can't use needles until then. End goal, looking similar to Thor. Any specific advice regarding shorter (4 week) cycles?

no dude, you are mistaken. shaking the powders together will not give you an even dilution. look up geometric dilution. even with proper dilution your scoop plan is still dumb even if you weigh each dose you take.

why are you so dead set on blazing a train into the great unknown when everyone is telling you your headed for trouble?

and i'm calling bs on the pic.


60mg tbol ed for 6 weeks with 50-75mg prop ed for 8 weeks would be a good little blast.
 
it sounds like you're trying to be sneaky with your gear usage. this is dumb. at some point, if you keep using AAS and training, everyone will know you're on gear. just wait untill you move out of mom's house to use gear.
 
no dude, you are mistaken. shaking the powders together will not give you an even dilution. look up geometric dilution. even with proper dilution your scoop plan is still dumb even if you weigh each dose you take.

why are you so dead set on blazing a train into the great unknown when everyone is telling you your headed for trouble?

and i'm calling bs on the pic.


60mg tbol ed for 6 weeks with 50-75mg prop ed for 8 weeks would be a good little blast.

Unless the powder has a tendency to be clumpy (as creatine isn't), it should be rather well mixed with enough shaking and stirring. I'm a fan of experimenting and seeing what works so if i do end up doing this cycle, any suggestions for pct? I may end up botching this idea and waiting until I can pin to start a basic (shoter) test cycle but I really wanted to do a little something for my 21st birthday and this is what i came up with. It seemed like a good enough idea with decent gains and minimal sides. I don't want to come across as arrogant or foolish or anything, I just wanted someone who experienced something similar to this (duration or compounds) to comment on what to expect out of the proposed cycle.

As for the pic, it may be real. I've read everywhere that LEGIT tbol is surprisingly good and good for a first cycle but that legit tbol is hard to find. I was planning on getting from quality raws dot com but i wanted to source check first.
 
it sounds like you're trying to be sneaky with your gear usage. this is dumb. at some point, if you keep using AAS and training, everyone will know you're on gear. just wait untill you move out of mom's house to use gear.

Some people already asked me what I run, which is funny as i'm not even that big. Probably just because i always do heavy weights and am naturally vascular. Forearms look like spider webs on back day, haha. Also, i'm a student who lives on campus (a stockpile of needles would be bad). That's why i gotta wait to pin until i get off campus.

Believe it or not, many people are EXTREMELY ignorant when it comes to being able to tell who does steroids. They know Ronnie Coleman is unnatural but think that all "natural" fitness models have never touched the stuff. Hell, there's a 210 lb, 5'10" asian guy who is 8% bf year round. Says he never takes a rest day and all the kids are like "Oh, that's why he's so beastly."

Also, Mixing the powder would just be for convenience's sake as it would be cheap and easy. If that's out of the questions, i could just buy premade orals from Naps or somewhere else.
 
tbol and test is cool. tbol solo isn't. skip the raws man, you'd need a ball mill to get a homogeneous mixture and then you're talking big scale. then the idea of a "scoop" as a dosage measurement is just asking for trouble.

get some m-sten and run that for 4 weeks 10/10/20/20, bump up to 20 after the first week if you can handle the sides. get some good research chem clomid (sources here) for pct. add in liver care with TUDCA and you'll be fine.

save the tbol for when you can run it with prop.



also though i should add, all the raws i've used have be about the consistency of powdered sugar and can be clumpy.
 
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tbol and test is cool. tbol solo isn't. skip the raws man, you'd need a ball mill to get a homogeneous mixture and then you're talking big scale. then the idea of a "scoop" as a dosage measurement is just asking for trouble.

get some m-sten and run that for 4 weeks 10/10/20/20, bump up to 20 after the first week if you can handle the sides. get some good research chem clomid (sources here) for pct. add in liver care with TUDCA and you'll be fine.

save the tbol for when you can run it with prop.



also though i should add, all the raws i've used have be about the consistency of powdered sugar and can be clumpy.

Ah, thanks for the advice man. Isn't m-sten a prohormone though? Don't pro-hormones have more sides and less results than an oral steroid?

Edit: How can i rep you as a thanks for providing good advice?
 
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Ah, thanks for the advice man. Isn't m-sten a prohormone though? Don't pro-hormones have more sides and less results than an oral steroid?

yes and no. depends on the prohormone and the oral steroid you're talking about. m-sten sides aren't as bad as anadrol, low dose var would probably have less side than sten. everyone reacts differently to different drugs.

dbol and m-sten are probably just as bad for your liver.

m-sten could put 20lbs on you in 4 weeks depending on diet.


i'm sure it's cheaper than whatever you would pay for raws. don't forget there is a minimum order.
 
Get Shredded!
Edit: How can i rep you as a thanks for providing good advice?

you're too new lol. it's all good bro. just please do more research and get a SERM for pct (no OTC bullshit)
 
To Console:
You are saying that just 4 weeks of the proposed cycle is enough to do permanent harm? How so? And yes, I would like just a "small boost" to retain the androgenic look (chest and shoulders) while i cut down. Do you have any personal experience or knowledge about cycles of this length? (for sides and PCT as well). Would you suggest wait until I can pin and do three four-week test prop cycles or should I ditch the 4 week idea all together?

I'm saying that given your cycle history (absolutely none) and age (young), a 4 week cycle could be negative so deciding to take one for mediocre results (which WILL happen, if any at all) is a terrible choice. As far as personal knowledge, the two people I know IRL who have tried oral-only cycles both lost ALL of their gains when they came off (not gradual either, 2 weeks and the weight was completely nonexistent) and both of them shut down their natural test production (or at least fucked it up temporarily) without a PCT.

I definitely suggest waiting until you can pin, because that 10lbs and shape you're looking for can be achieved naturally in a year. Over the course of the year, do some research into different compounds and the basics of cycling. Read the Anabolic Handbook by R.C. Daniels, track others progress and use, and then even after all that, start with test only or test and an oral. It gives you so much more of a clear picture on how your body reacts to anabolics and will save yourself headaches down the road. More importantly, you'll put on mass and WON'T lose it (with proper diet and training).
 
I'm saying that given your cycle history (absolutely none) and age (young), a 4 week cycle could be negative so deciding to take one for mediocre results (which WILL happen, if any at all) is a terrible choice. As far as personal knowledge, the two people I know IRL who have tried oral-only cycles both lost ALL of their gains when they came off (not gradual either, 2 weeks and the weight was completely nonexistent) and both of them shut down their natural test production (or at least fucked it up temporarily) without a PCT.

I definitely suggest waiting until you can pin, because that 10lbs and shape you're looking for can be achieved naturally in a year. Over the course of the year, do some research into different compounds and the basics of cycling. Read the Anabolic Handbook by R.C. Daniels, track others progress and use, and then even after all that, start with test only or test and an oral. It gives you so much more of a clear picture on how your body reacts to anabolics and will save yourself headaches down the road. More importantly, you'll put on mass and WON'T lose it (with proper diet and training).

What PCT would be needed for a 4 week cycle? Just a week of low dose nolvadex? Also, the paperback version of the book you mentioned is stupidly expensive. Any other good reads?
 
What PCT would be needed for a 4 week cycle? Just a week of low dose nolvadex? Also, the paperback version of the book you mentioned is stupidly expensive. Any other good reads?

There are torrents of the book all over the Internet, and I have no idea what a decent PCT would be (although I would recommend the full one, which is pretty much as long as your cycle). Overall, short cycles are pretty fruitless long term and I wouldn't recommend anything under 10 weeks (and I would never run anything myself under 12). You're body doesn't hold onto strength or mass in that short of a time frame.
 
What PCT would be needed for a 4 week cycle? Just a week of low dose nolvadex? Also, the paperback version of the book you mentioned is stupidly expensive. Any other good reads?

read the stickies here.
 
I've read the stickies and already knew all that information, but they're for full length cycles. Surely i wouldn't need a full 3 week pct for a 4 week cycle..?

yeah, 4 weeks pct is kinda standard. i've done a 5 week pct when i ran test for 16 weeks with out HCG, but i don't know if the extra week really did anything. you don't need HCG for a short cycle.

for 4 week cycles most people use 1 SERM, with long cycles 12+ most people use 2 SERMs. clomid is always my primary pct drug, when i take 2 SERMs i stack clomid with torem.
 
yeah, 4 weeks pct is kinda standard. i've done a 5 week pct when i ran test for 16 weeks with out HCG, but i don't know if the extra week really did anything. you don't need HCG for a short cycle.

for 4 week cycles most people use 1 SERM, with long cycles 12+ most people use 2 SERMs. clomid is always my primary pct drug, when i take 2 SERMs i stack clomid with torem.

Well i know a few national level athletes and they don't use pct at all. Usually they run 14-21 day cycles of low to mid range doses. I'm wondering if adding a week would add a week of light PCT. That being said, if I do a single SERM, you are saying just do clomid?
 
Well i know a few national level athletes and they don't use pct at all. Usually they run 14-21 day cycles of low to mid range doses. I'm wondering if adding a week would add a week of light PCT. That being said, if I do a single SERM, you are saying just do clomid?

the people that you speak of aren't really running a cycle. if you take anything that shuts down natty test you need pct.

yes, use clomid. torem is like tamoxifen v2.0
 
the people that you speak of aren't really running a cycle. if you take anything that shuts down natty test you need pct.

yes, use clomid. torem is like tamoxifen v2.0

Is 300mg test prop and 40mg dbol ed for 3 weeks not a cycle? Also, what makes clomid better than nolvadex. I heard you should run clomid with nolvadex but don't have to run nolvadex with clomid.
 
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