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To use a AI or Serm during cycle or not ??

Mentos

Mentos

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Get Shredded!
Know most guys here use a AI during cycle even if you not have lumps or gyno at all. Is that really the right thing to do ??
Did a read long time a go that ''Estrogen'' can play a beneficial role for the athlete. And that a AI might slightly hinder gains during steroid therapy.

What you guys think ? Im no fan at all only if i get itchy nips and lumps,,,......
 
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I would rather have slightly slower gains and not have to worry about gyno. Some people are more prone than others.

The real key is getting your estrogen levels just right, and you'll need blood work for that.


Warrior
 
I think anyone who thinks their estrogen level is fine just because they don't have gyno is a uneducated fucking moron ;)
Sign of a true newb.

I'm not saying u need to crush estro either but it without doubt needs to be monitored via labs.

What gains are u losing? Water bloat smoking mirrors? It's not muscle mass if its gone in a week lol. It's just water bloat. If all u want is to see the # go up on the scale hold a bag of potatoes when u get on it.

Estrogen can effect many things in the male body negatively. Blood pressure, prostate, libido, joint pain etc.

I don't get gyno. Hardly means my estrogen is ideal.

Stop fucking around and get labs for $50 the rest is bro science bullshit!
 
It's easy to think estrogen is bad, but it has a lot of benefits. It's only an issue in excess. Many people I know use AI on cycle to lower water retention or prevent gyno, but I've heard many others not have to use them at all. This method might be more common than you think for more basic cycles, and it generally helps with joint support to keep estrogen around. What it boils down to is your body's personal need for an AI or not, and what kind of gear you use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
^^^ Sounds good to me bro.. Seen to many threads about AI use during cycle and most guys say its a must.. But is it realy ?? I guess not
I only get itchy nips/lumps from deca,tren,dbol and drols. So if i do a cycle with out getting gyno signs why bother use it..
 
Mentos said:
^^^ Sounds good to me bro.. Seen to many threads about AI use during cycle and most guys say its a must.. But is it realy ?? I guess not
I only get itchy nips/lumps from deca,tren,dbol and drols. So if i do a cycle with out getting gyno signs why bother use it..
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't necessarily say that. With those kinds of compounds you should be taking something to combat excess estrogen. At least try a low dose. Id rather have slightly lower estrogen than risk gyno and excessive bloat. Like I said, it's always possible that you may not need them at all, but it seems like a lesser risk to use something over nothing when running compounds like that.


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I get sides at moderate doses of test so
An AI is essential for me. I also enjoy the dry look despite the joint issues.


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There is more than just gyno to worry about. Excess estrogen in males can increase chance of stroke, heart disease, prostate cancer, and so on. Be smart guys, even if you aren't gyno prone!
 
ironguruera said:
I think anyone who thinks their estrogen level is fine just because they don't have gyno is a uneducated fucking moron ;)
Sign of a true newb.

I'm not saying u need to crush estro either but it without doubt needs to be monitored via labs.

What gains are u losing? Water bloat smoking mirrors? It's not muscle mass if its gone in a week lol. It's just water bloat. If all u want is to see the # go up on the scale hold a bag of potatoes when u get on it.

Estrogen can effect many things in the male body negatively. Blood pressure, prostate, libido, joint pain etc.

I don't get gyno. Hardly means my estrogen is ideal.

Stop fucking around and get labs for $50 the rest is bro science bullshit!
Click to expand...

This made me LOL!
 
IML Gear Cream!
ironguruera said:
I think anyone who thinks their estrogen level is fine just because they don't have gyno is a uneducated fucking moron ;)
Sign of a true newb.

I'm not saying u need to crush estro either but it without doubt needs to be monitored via labs.

What gains are u losing? Water bloat smoking mirrors? It's not muscle mass if its gone in a week lol. It's just water bloat. If all u want is to see the # go up on the scale hold a bag of potatoes when u get on it.

Estrogen can effect many things in the male body negatively. Blood pressure, prostate, libido, joint pain etc.

I don't get gyno. Hardly means my estrogen is ideal.

Stop fucking around and get labs for $50 the rest is bro science bullshit!
Click to expand...
bro.. chill on the tren you sound like a tool... he was simply asking about the positive BALANCE of E2, not to mention E3.. How about you provide us with some information reads on estro, with a solid backing.. Entertain me, because I promise I will school you!
 
Vision said:
bro.. chill on the tren you sound like a tool... he was simply asking about the positive BALANCE of E2, not to mention E3.. How about you provide us with some information reads on estro, with a solid backing.. Entertain me, because I promise I will school you!
Click to expand...

Ironguru is a solid member who can and will back his info up. The guy knows his shit like you do. I don't think he was directing his post towards mentos but making a comment in general.

Add on: you got my pm.... wanted to post this so people don't start jumping on sides and arguing
 
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Lol I'm fine I'm not on tren. I just dont sugar cost things. Sorry ill tone It down. This subject annoys me that's all.

I don't need to back up what I said. It's fact. How's about u prove to me where high estrogen is ideal in the male body. It's fact high estro in males can lead to high blood pressure, prostate issues just to name a few. If stating that fact makes me a tool....call me whatever ya like.

I understand guys belch out bro science. I'm not about to search pub med articles right now.
Why is it heavy iron or any vet that really knows his stuff runs an AI on cycle?

My buddy had bunk aromasin. His estro was 230!! He apparently doesn't get gyno. Proves the point gyno is hardly a solid indicator for all guys to show estro is high...that's all I'm really trying to say.

Be safe guys. Labs are $50 and tell u truly what the body is doing.
 
Last edited:
ironguruera said:
Lol I'm fine I'm not on tren. I just dont sugar cost things. Sorry ill tone It down. This subject annoys me that's all.

I don't need to back up what I said. It's fact. How's about u prove to me where high estrogen is ideal in the male body. It's fact high estro in males can lead for high blood pressure, prostate issues just to name a few. If stating that fact makes me a tool....call me whatever ya like.
Why is it heavy iron or any vet that really knows his stuff runs an AI on cycle?

My buddy had bunk aromasin. His estro was 230!! He apparently doesn't get gyno. Proves the point gyno is hardly a solid indicator for all guys to show estro is high.
Click to expand...

I feel ya man.... simply looking at physical sides to gauge estro is a bad idea. Its to subjective. Labs are the best way to assess estro AND prolactin. And I for one run a low dose AI regardless, and with my first 19nor run coming up I will have caber ready to go. The sides from these compounds are serious on general health.
 
I'm not trying to start a fight or cause trouble guys.

The subject gets a rise out of me.

Just want u guys to be healthy and safe.

For reference when I was not as knowledgable I ran a test and masteron cycle. No ai. I don't personally get gyno. I don't feel I gained any more this cycle then I do now with keeping estro in check and getting labs.
 
I think back in the day, the 'classic' bodybuilders had the logic that while excess estrogen causes water retention and bloat, it also gave your muscles better leverage. So the thinking was that you could lift heavier and therefore gain more mass. I think this theory has been debunked, but it actually makes some sense.

From my experience I can say doing moderate to high testosterone runs, and especially dbol runs, without AI my blood pressure goes to 160/100, my face turns red wiping my ass on the toilet, and I look like the Michelin man. Plus, I usually get itchy, puffy nipples, that are sore to the touch, preacher bench is the test.

At any rate, services like Private MD Labs has taken the guess work out of it. The fact of the matter is you want your e2 to be within the normal range, or slightly elevated at best. It's really not a matter of debate. Some people have elevated e2 when looking at a vial of test, others can do 750mg/wk no problem.
 
ironguruera said:
Lol I'm fine I'm not on tren. I just dont sugar cost things. Sorry ill tone It down. This subject annoys me that's all.

I don't need to back up what I said. It's fact. How's about u prove to me where high estrogen is ideal in the male body. It's fact high estro in males can lead to high blood pressure, prostate issues just to name a few. If stating that fact makes me a tool....call me whatever ya like.

I understand guys belch out bro science. I'm not about to search pub med articles right now.
Why is it heavy iron or any vet that really knows his stuff runs an AI on cycle?

My buddy had bunk aromasin. His estro was 230!! He apparently doesn't get gyno. Proves the point gyno is hardly a solid indicator for all guys to show estro is high...that's all I'm really trying to say.

Be safe guys. Labs are $50 and tell u truly what the body is doing.
Click to expand...

Completely hear you, man. I think a lot of people hear about Arnold and those guys not having AI's back then, so they assume estrogen only affects some people. Estrogen should always be watched and bloods as you said should be a regular part of any cycle, but speaking from experience with lesser cycles (200mg prop/week or 500mg E/week) it's certainly possible to go without them without adverse effects. My BP and cholesterol were fantastic on those two example cycles. It goes without saying, however, that when you start to deal with compounds that aromatize more readily (or up the dose of test beyond the norm) an AI becomes a must. At that point it just comes down to how much AI.

I think the only thing people might disagree with here is your aggression, no matter how funny it may be to read.
 
jerseydevil said:
I think back in the day, the 'classic' bodybuilders had the logic that while excess estrogen causes water retention and bloat, it also gave your muscles better leverage. So the thinking was that you could lift heavier and therefore gain more mass. I think this theory has been debunked, but it actually makes some sense.

From my experience I can say doing moderate to high testosterone runs, and especially dbol runs, without AI my blood pressure goes to 160/100, my face turns red wiping my ass on the toilet, and I look like the Michelin man. Plus, I usually get itchy, puffy nipples, that are sore to the touch, preacher bench is the test.

At any rate, services like Private MD Labs has taken the guess work out of it. The fact of the matter is you want your e2 to be within the normal range, or slightly elevated at best. It's really not a matter of debate. Some people have elevated e2 when looking at a vial of test, others can do 750mg/wk no problem.
Click to expand...

I wanted to rep you just for "Some people have elevated e2 when looking at a vial of test," but turns out I already repped you recently.
 
SigRep said:
Completely hear you, man. I think a lot of people hear about Arnold and those guys not having AI's back then, so they assume estrogen only affects some people. Estrogen should always be watched and bloods as you said should be a regular part of any cycle, but speaking from experience with lesser cycles (200mg prop/week or 500mg E/week) it's certainly possible to go without them without adverse effects. My BP and cholesterol were fantastic on those two example cycles. It goes without saying, however, that when you start to deal with compounds that aromatize more readily (or up the dose of test beyond the norm) an AI becomes a must. At that point it just comes down to how much AI.

I think the only thing people might disagree with here is your aggression, no matter how funny it may be to read.
Click to expand...

Lol
No worries. I laid it on real thick no doubt!
I do enjoy making ppl laugh with the things I say.
 
Get Shredded!
Can estrogen work to augment muscle growth? Is this hormone always unwanted when we are taking anabolic steroids? Anecdotal reports from athletes suggest that the use of estrogen maintenance drugs such as tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) or aminoglutethimide (anti-aromatase) may slightly hinder muscle mass gains during steroid therapy. An explanation or even clarification for this observation has not been easy to come by. Here I would like to take a look at the comparative effectiveness of certain aromatizable and non-aromatizable drugs, as well as the possible mechanism in which estrogen can play a beneficial role to the athlete.

The Androgen Receptor
All anabolic/androgenic steroids promote muscle growth primarily via the cellular androgen receptor (abbreviated as AR in this article). The steroid attaches to and activates the androgen receptor, which ultimately gives the cell an order to increase protein synthesis. This process is well understood. But it has been suggested that other mechanisms may foster muscle growth during steroid therapy as well, which lie outside of the androgen receptor. One way this is evidenced is by the fact that steroids displaying a high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue do not always promote an equally high level of muscle growth. In other words, anabolic potency does not always correspond perfectly to receptor affinity. Clearly there are some disparities that lead into question whether or not the androgen receptor is the only thing at work concerning growth.

testosterone, Nandrolone and Methenolone
testosterone is without question one of the most effective steroids for building muscle mass available to athletes. However it does not have the highest affinity for the androgen receptor compared to some other steroids. For example, it has been shown that by eliminating the 19-methyl group (nandrolone) the affinity of the steroid for the androgen receptor is greatly enhanced. Nandrolone thus displays approximately 2-3 times greater affinity for the androgen receptor compared totestosterone, yet its ability to promote muscle growth seems to be considerably lower than testosterone at an equal dosage. One discussed possibility for this occurrence is the reduced androgenic potency of nandrolone. While testosterone converts to the more active steroid dihydrotestosterone (3-4 times greater AR affinity) upon interaction with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in various androgenic target tissues such as the skin, scalp, prostate, central nervous system and liver, nandrolone drops to a third of its original potency by converting to the weak steroid dihydronandrolone[ii]. However this action is very site specific, and in muscle tissue nandrolone dominates as the active form of the steroid. Therefore this explanation may not suffice.

Nandrolone also differs from testosterone in its ability to be converted by the aromatase enzyme to estradiol (an active estrogen). In comparison, nandrolone aromatizes at approximately 20% of the rate testosterone does, and as such is not known as a very estrogenic steroid. It is likewise favored when reduced estrogenic side effects such as water retention, fat deposition and gynecomastia are desired. However athletes know that there is a trade off with the reduced tendency for nandrolone to promote side effects, in that it is a less anabolic steroid. With its known high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue, could this suggest that estrogen may also be a key mediator of muscle growth?

When we look at Primobolan® (methenolone) we see a similar trend. Methenolone is at least as good a binder of the androgen receptor as testosterone. By some accounts it is on par with nandrolone[iii]. However it is known to be much weaker than both steroids at promoting muscle growth. We know that methenolone does not interact with 5-alpha reductase, and as such its affinity for the AR does not increase or decrease in androgen target tissues. This would logically seem like a more favorable trait for anabolism over the weakening we see with nandrolone. However methenolone is a markedly weaker anabolic, and requires relatively high doses to promote growth. This also brings into question the role of 5-alpha reductase in promoting an anabolic state. Perhaps the fact that Primobolan® is a non-aromatizable steroid is more relevant.

Estrogen and gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - /IGF-1
To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin C) is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels[iv]. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen[v]. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels[vi]. Yet another study shows that gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with dela puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action[vii]. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation[viii] [ix]. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

What does this all mean?
It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.
 
Not even Adderall could get me to read that whole post, but I don't have enough information personally to help answer you specifically. I would have to guess that estrogen does not augment muscle growth itself, but does support testosterone in its doing so. Estrogen is in your body naturally for a reason. It's good for joints, libido, and plenty of other things. Now I do know you can't build muscle if you've crashed your estrogen, but in excess I don't believe it's providing additional anabolic effects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
They bring up a valid point I didn't address. Nolva/tomoxifen is a terrible serm for 1 huge reason. It lowers igf. The last thing we wanna do during pct as well as oct. last pct I used Nolva I also used igf lr3 to counteract the Nolva.

Aromasin actually boost igf. Nolva should not be used on cycle imho unless in a gyno emergency to block the receptor until the ai is upped accordingly to actually lower the estrogen level vs merely competing for the receptor like Nolva.

I'm not sure the affects of Adex on igf as its harsher on lipids and aroma works so well for me I've never looking further into Adex.
 
I know LOTS AND LOTS of guys that dont need AIs. LOTS AND LOTS of them dont discover this until they are many cycles into their using career. AIs have their own side effects everyone seems to forget that tidbit. There is no way to know if you will need one until you do a cycle and carefully monitor how your body responds. I like to advise that guys have nolvadex on hand for their first cycle and give it a run without the AI. Its a personal choice and on the boards the trend seems to be throwing everything at it just in case. Thats all well and good if what you're throwing has a neutral impact. With AIs that is not the case and I wish there were more understanding of the sides caused by too much estrogen repression. For example if you are on test and an AI and have no sex drive STOP TAKING SO MUCH AI.

Estrogen is not unwanted. Excess Estrogen is.
 
AgentYes said:
I know LOTS AND LOTS of guys that dont need AIs. LOTS AND LOTS of them dont discover this until they are many cycles into their using career. AIs have their own side effects everyone seems to forget that tidbit. There is no way to know if you will need one until you do a cycle and carefully monitor how your body responds. I like to advise that guys have nolvadex on hand for their first cycle and give it a run without the AI. Its a personal choice and on the boards the trend seems to be throwing everything at it just in case. Thats all well and good if what you're throwing has a neutral impact. With AIs that is not the case and I wish there were more understanding of the sides caused by too much estrogen repression. For example if you are on test and an AI and have no sex drive STOP TAKING SO MUCH AI.

Estrogen is not unwanted. Excess Estrogen is.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your input bro,,.... Bump !!
 
AgentYes said:
I know LOTS AND LOTS of guys that dont need AIs. LOTS AND LOTS of them dont discover this until they are many cycles into their using career. AIs have their own side effects everyone seems to forget that tidbit. There is no way to know if you will need one until you do a cycle and carefully monitor how your body responds. I like to advise that guys have nolvadex on hand for their first cycle and give it a run without the AI. Its a personal choice and on the boards the trend seems to be throwing everything at it just in case. Thats all well and good if what you're throwing has a neutral impact. With AIs that is not the case and I wish there were more understanding of the sides caused by too much estrogen repression. For example if you are on test and an AI and have no sex drive STOP TAKING SO MUCH AI.

Estrogen is not unwanted. Excess Estrogen is.
Click to expand...
Well said AY, nice to see you around!
 
This is a topic I have wondered about for a long time . Alot of the experts I have read state that indeed estrogen does have a role to play in muscle growth and any interference in aromatization will have some effect on gains . Especially we are talking about bulking since it would be impossible to get cut with elevated estrogen . On a bulk would it be of benefit to have slightly elevated estrogen ? I am not sure . Obviously there are negative sides from high estrogen so where is the balance ? Right now I am on a bulk and I use an AI but I try to use the minumim and come up with e2 that is just slightly elevated . All meds have side effects and I like to only take what is absolutly needed.

And AY it is great to see you here , you have been missed .
 
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