Gyno

A friend of mine has gyno and its a pretty severe case. All of my knowledge is really focused on avoiding gyno/dealing with gyno when it first happens. Would Letro be a good option for him? I'm not sure if this is gyno from puberty or if it was AAS related.

Surgery would be the basic answer and he knows that. I'm looking for an alternative. Would he benefit from running a Letro/Nolva regimen for a couple of weeks or would he have to continue taking them?

Letro and caber or prami will help shrink or get rid of it depending how old it is. The older the gyno the more likely surgery is the only thing that will completely get rid of it.

Sherk... Great info as always brother.

I spoke with him again today and he did run test only cycle when he was younger. He's in his early 30's... So roughly 10 years ago was when he noticed the gyno.

He's willing to try anything I suggest but do I suggest the same dosages of Letro and Caber as we would run to prevent gyno? Or would the dosage be higher?

TheOldJJdigs said:

Sherk... Great info as always brother.

I spoke with him again today and he did run test only cycle when he was younger. He's in his early 30's... So roughly 10 years ago was when he noticed the gyno.

He's willing to try anything I suggest but do I suggest the same dosages of Letro and Caber as we would run to prevent gyno? Or would the dosage be higher?

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Send me a pm and I'll give you the protocol I ran that crushed mine damn near completely. I have I tiny, little bigger than a beebee lump left but you can't tell its there or ever was there. My gyno was a few years old.

I recently read this piece about letro and gyno.

To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (clomid)
AI ***8211; Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AIs prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in letro.

letro and your sex drive:
letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don't know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg letro
Day 3: 1.0mg letro
Day 4: 1.5mg letro
Day 5: 2.0mg letro
Day 6: 2.5mg letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg letro
Day 2: 1.0mg letro
Day 3: 1.5mg letro
Day 4: 2.0mg letro
Day 5: 2.5mg letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg letro
Day 2: 1.0mg letro
Day 3: 1.5mg letro
Day 4: 2.0mg letro
Day 5: 2.5mg letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can't guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

Maybe this information can help.......

I have one BIG problem with that article. It keeps referencing back to using nolva on cycle. I know he also mentioned "or another AI", but a serm does nothing for you in regards of keeping your e2 down and in range. All it does is simply bind to the receptor and prevent it from forming breast tissue (gyno). Well guess what? Your estrogen is still out of control. You need to check tour estrogen and keep it in check so it doesn't get high in the first place. If you use nolva and don't get gyno while on cycle, then go into pct, what is your plan for when oct is over and now you're stuck with excess estrogen build up and now are getting gyno after your completely done with your cycle. Makes no sense to me. Nolva is best suited for pct. adex or aromasin are better options for on cycle and maybe letro, but I feel letro is too sensitive on crushing your e2 but that's my opinion.

Pap... Great read brother! This was very helpful and I appreciate the input!

Sherk I agree. But the info and doses is exactly what I'm looking for so this was a good starting point.

Oh yeah most definitely about the letro protocol for gyno removal being good. Just make sure he realizes his libido will be flatlined but its worth loosing for a month or so to not have gyno and hi E2. Tapering down is extremely important. I didn't taper up, there's no real reason that I could find to do it other than bros on a forum saying so. I jumped right on 2.5mg of letro from day 1 until I started tapering down. I was at the max dose for a little over 2 weeks.

Sherk said:

Oh yeah most definitely about the letro protocol for gyno removal being good. Just make sure he realizes his libido will be flatlined but its worth loosing for a month or so to not have gyno and hi E2. Tapering down is extremely important. I didn't taper up, there's no real reason that I could find to do it other than bros on a forum saying so. I jumped right on 2.5mg of letro from day 1 until I started tapering down. I was at the max dose for a little over 2 weeks.

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Was this at the start of a cycle, with other compounds, then dropping it in lieu of Aromasin + the regular run?

There was a guy (seriously, NOT me) that had slight gyno and was FREAKING OUT. His doc, an endo said don't worry. He worried. He started Letro as per above and Bamm, the lumps were gone in less than 2 months and he is off letro now. One thing he said with 100% certainty -- the letro DESTROYED his sex drive.

I would rank the AI/SERM's as follows in order of least impact with greatest result for preventing excess E2 (or blocking E2's action):

Anastrozole,
Exemestane
Femera

Can't speak about any others.

Laughing at your "not me" comment hahaha. It made me think if people think my threads about me? Lmao.

Gyno free happy to report... My buddy on the other hand, not so much!

Thanks for the posts brother!

Sherk said:

I have one BIG problem with that article. It keeps referencing back to using nolva on cycle. I know he also mentioned "or another AI", but a serm does nothing for you in regards of keeping your e2 down and in range. All it does is simply bind to the receptor and prevent it from forming breast tissue (gyno). Well guess what? Your estrogen is still out of control. You need to check tour estrogen and keep it in check so it doesn't get high in the first place.

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This is absolutely correct. Tamoxifen competes for the receptor site in breast tissue, by binding to it. The effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue, so it does indeed keep estrogen from growing breast tissue. But it does nothing to reduce e2 in the body, and in fact it actually increases the total e2.

But I will say this, I personally always have some tamoxifen on hand. If you are taking an AI and start to experience sensitive, itchy, sore to the touch nipples, 40mg ED of tamoxifen will rid you of those symptoms while you are hustling to get a good AI (because obviously what you are using is bunk or underdosed).

DaMaster said:

Was this at the start of a cycle, with other compounds, then dropping it in lieu of Aromasin + the regular run?

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No I was completely off cycle when I did my removal. But if I was in cycle then yes I would have stopped the cycle to rid the gyno and get my e2 in check. I don't believe someone should stay on cycle while trying to reverse gyno. It's a waste of good gear IMO.

jerseydevil said:

This is absolutely correct. Tamoxifen competes for the receptor site in breast tissue, by binding to it. The effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue, so it does indeed keep estrogen from growing breast tissue. But it does nothing to reduce e2 in the body, and in fact it actually increases the total e2.

But I will say this, I personally always have some tamoxifen on hand. If you are taking an AI and start to experience sensitive, itchy, sore to the touch nipples, 40mg ED of tamoxifen will rid you of those symptoms while you are hustling to get a good AI (because obviously what you are using is bunk or underdosed).

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I agree its always good to have on hand just in case.

I need to order up some caber so I can run it with some letro

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

A little more info on the topic.......

I read something about this a few months ago. Here is the best I remember (would give author credit if I could remember who):

Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs.

Androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs. There are some similarities between the two types of AIs.

Both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s.

For type I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed.

Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis.

Type II, inhibitors, reversibly bind to the active enzymesite, and one of two things can happen:

1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.

The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors.

Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects.

jerseydevil said:

This is absolutely correct. Tamoxifen competes for the receptor site in breast tissue, by binding to it. The effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue, so it does indeed keep estrogen from growing breast tissue. But it does nothing to reduce e2 in the body, and in fact it actually increases the total e2.

But I will say this, I personally always have some tamoxifen on hand. If you are taking an AI and start to experience sensitive, itchy, sore to the touch nipples, 40mg ED of tamoxifen will rid you of those symptoms while you are hustling to get a good AI (because obviously what you are using is bunk or underdosed).

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This is solid advice. ALWAYS have a back-up plan.

Sherk said:

No I was completely off cycle when I did my removal. But if I was in cycle then yes I would have stopped the cycle to rid the gyno and get my e2 in check. I don't believe someone should stay on cycle while trying to reverse gyno. It's a waste of good gear IMO.

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Good point... taking a couple of weeks to rid it first is no big deal.

Raloxifene>all for me!

Dizzym said:

Raloxifene>all for me!

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I've seen that name before but don't hear much about it

Evista is the brand name. I take 50mg a day throughout heavy cycles. Gyno is a thing of the past now! Haven't noticed it diminishing gains at all. I also use a small amount of arimidex to keep bloat/estro in check.

Dizzym said:

Evista is the brand name. I take 50mg a day throughout heavy cycles. Gyno is a thing of the past now! Haven't noticed it diminishing gains at all. I also use a small amount of arimidex to keep bloat/estro in check.

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cool that you're happy with man. I'm going to research this one some. Thanks for the heads up.