• 👋Hello, please SIGN-UP FOR A FREE account and become a member of our community!
    You will then be able to start threads, post comments and send messages to other members. Thanks!
  • IronMag Labs® 25% Off Sale!❤️‍🔥 Hardcore Bodybuilding Supplements💪Use Coupon Code ASF25 💊

Blacksheep/HCG being recommended for PCT? Lets discuss this..

TheOldJJdigs

Azteca Gold REP
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
5,167
Reaction score
3,879
Points
121
Get Shredded!
"However, upon levels of injected steroid falling below what would be commensurate with 100 mg/week use, very low dose HCG such as 100-125 IU every other day is acceptable as a part of PCT."


-- taken from our good friends at AMA. :winkfinger:


I'm aware HCG has been blacklisted from our PCT world but what AMA is saying makes sense to me but i'm also not a genius, ha! Should we leave out the HCG until AAS levels fall and at very small doses, introduce HCG on an ED or EOD basis?


Discuss

:coffee:
 
I thought that HCG suppressed the HPTA? Anytime you give your body synthetic hormones or put something in your body to help it produce hormones, it wants to be in homeostasis and can tend to lean on whatever you are putting in your body and make corrections on its own to reach homeostasis. And the whole point of PCT is to bring your body naturally back to homeostasis, and if HCG impedes reaching that homeostasis, I would say that it should not be used as part of PCT.
 
HCG has no role in an initial pct. If blood work taken 5 weeks min after pct is finished, and the hpta is suppressed, a very short blast of hcg can be used before beginning a second round of pct. Negative feedback (which hcg causes) during pct is something you want to avoid.
 
Hcg signals your nuts to start producing test. So yes hcg should be used in pct. not during your cycle. And a 5,000 iu vial should only last you two days.
 
Hcg signals your nuts to start producing test. So yes hcg should be used in pct. not during your cycle. And a 5,000 iu vial should only last you two days.

:/

I'm at work and can't spend the time to answer this the way I would like. But your suggestion that HCG shouldn't be run during cycle is not true. Not in the least bit.
 
Um ok. Hcg signals your testies to start working and synthetic test signals your testies to stop working. Why would you want to send two conflicting signals threw your body. ?
 
Um ok. Hcg signals your testies to start working and synthetic test signals your testies to stop working. Why would you want to send two conflicting signals threw your body. ?

In order to avoid extended testicular shutdown which will make PCT more difficult, as the hypothalamus and pituitary are struggling with tiny, atrophied balls with few hormonal cells left. Keeping the balls running during cycle is like keeping an engine idling, instead of letting it rot into gelled gas and rust.

The basics of this are discussed in the #1 sticky we have: http://anabolicsteroidforums.com/showthread.php/184-First-Cycle-and-PCT-2012
 
In order to avoid extended testicular shutdown which will make PCT more difficult, as the hypothalamus and pituitary are struggling with tiny, atrophied balls with few hormonal cells left. Keeping the balls running during cycle is like keeping an engine idling, instead of letting it rot into gelled gas and rust.

The basics of this are discussed in the #1 sticky we have: http://anabolicsteroidforums.com/showthread.php/184-First-Cycle-and-PCT-2012

http://youtu.be/faX9nv5Coj8

this contradicts everything thing you think you know. And it's coming from a pro who has more experience and knowledge than everyone on here combined. I'll take his advice over some stickies any day of the week.
 
http://youtu.be/faX9nv5Coj8

this contradicts everything thing you think you know. And it's coming from a pro who has more experience and knowledge than everyone on here combined. I'll take his advice over some stickies any day of the week.


SO basically you're regurgitating something you heard someone say... As in the same point you're trying to make with me and others in this forum.

Proven FACT! The longer your natural Testosterone is shut down for, the longer it takes for said person to recover from that shutdown. trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH the pituitary gland stops producing LH. Without LH the Testies shut down.

[h=1]^^^^Scientifically PROVEN^^^^[/h]




Common sense. If shuting your body down for any length of time is a bad thing and having HCG helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes by mimicking LH and triggering the production and release of testosterone while on cycle... call me crazy guy but it seems like a good idea.

Is HCG a must during cycle? No. Does HCG hold any Anabolic advantage during a cycle? No. Does HCG stimulate the testes, thus making it easier to bring hormones back to baseline post cycle? Yes it does.

You need to stop listening to other people talk and do some of your own research and figure out an opinion for yourself. Not just watch a recorded interview and base everything he says as fact.
 
SO basically you're regurgitating something you heard someone say... As in the same point you're trying to make with me and others in this forum.

Proven FACT! The longer your natural Testosterone is shut down for, the longer it takes for said person to recover from that shutdown. trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH the pituitary gland stops producing LH. Without LH the Testies shut down.

^^^^Scientifically PROVEN^^^^

Common sense. If shuting your body down for any length of time is a bad thing and having HCG helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes by mimicking LH and triggering the production and release of testosterone while on cycle... call me crazy guy but it seems like a good idea.

Is HCG a must during cycle? No. Does HCG hold any Anabolic advantage during a cycle? No. Does HCG stimulate the testes, thus making it easier to bring hormones back to baseline post cycle? Yes it does.

You need to stop listening to other people talk and do some of your own research and figure out an opinion for yourself. Not just watch a recorded interview and base everything he says as fact.

What is this science you talk about? :roflmao:... Don't you know if its on the internet or a pro said it, its 100% true!
 
IML Gear Cream!
Go speak with a endo. Rich makes a solid argument. If I were to take anyone's advice it would be his. He obviously has more experience than we do. I'm not trying to b a dick but 700mg of tren a week puts me on edge. Lol
 
Go speak with a endo. Rich makes a solid argument. If I were to take anyone's advice it would be his. He obviously has more experience than we do. I'm not trying to b a dick but 700mg of tren a week puts me on edge. Lol


So you don't have anything to add to what I posted.

:thinking:
 
This study demonstrates that around 300iu HCG every other day is needed to raise ITT levels to baseline while administering Testosterone. That's 1,050iu HCG weekly.

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

full study;
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595
 
:/

I'm at work and can't spend the time to answer this the way I would like. But your suggestion that HCG shouldn't be run during cycle is not true. Not in the least bit.

I agree with you 100%. There is strong evidence HCG should be used during cycles or blasts, 250-500 IU's 2-3 times per week. I believe this is supposed to make PCT easier.

Heavyiron nailed it to the floor.
 
this contradicts everything thing you think you know. And it's coming from a pro who has more experience and knowledge than everyone on here combined. I'll take his advice over some stickies any day of the week.

The irony here is pretty rich. Rich Piana constantly says "thing for yourself" and "use your braaaaaiiiiin!" in this video, yet you swallow his contention about HCG without further research or thought. I suggest you start with HeavyIron's links to the actual studies, maybe look for some others on your own time, then come up with your own conclusions. Anything less than that is broscience faith -- some dude you like said it, so you see the bright shining light in the sky and that's the end of reason for you. That's biblical thinking with a brand new prophet, not science. Not useful.

Rich Piana is actually a moderately bright guy, he's just making a mistake on this one issue for some unknown reason. He doesn't cite his sources or reasoning. He may not have any.
 
He made multiple errors in the video but no biggie. What he's doing obviously works for him but frankly his AAS knowledge and experience is probably a tad above average. His AAS science knowledge is below average at best. I don't feel negative one bit about him but he clearly exaggerates and provides little factual information.
 
The evidence is not even debatable clinically, HCG keeps natty production going. Opinions can't change this fact. Each person can do what they want to do. What was fact five years ago can be changed by scientific evidence today, things change, get better and are proven or disproven with time. HCG is proven.
 
You said let's discuss. So I gave my opinion

First thing brother.... I'm not attacking you for you giving your opinion. I always welcome different perspectives and opinions from anybody. It makes for a good learning opportunity for all of us to debate or challenge each other. Hence, the reason I wanted to start this topic and get people talking about it.

I will say your demeanor, attitude and lack of knowledge pisses me off. That's not a big deal but it aggrivated me none the less. Your first post was more than just an opinion and more telling people how it is. You were wrong and you gave advice on dosage that's reckless and dangerous. Others tried to talk to you about it and you put them down by telling them they don't know anything because they're on the Internet and not a Pro.

Personally, I can tell you if I hadn't run AAS for 12 years or if I wasn't really motivated to learn more every single day... I wouldn't be on these forums. I'm not an expert. But I consider myself to have an above average knowledge on AAS as well as knowledgable on the human body. You coming in here and categorizing these guys and myself like you did is nonsense.

Just be respectful brother. It's a discussion... I've been told I was wrong plenty of times.

Good luck brother and thanks for good discussion!
 
First thing brother.... I'm not attacking you for you giving your opinion. I always welcome different perspectives and opinions from anybody. It makes for a good learning opportunity for all of us to debate or challenge each other. Hence, the reason I wanted to start this topic and get people talking about it.

I will say your demeanor, attitude and lack of knowledge pisses me off. That's not a big deal but it aggrivated me none the less. Your first post was more than just an opinion and more telling people how it is. You were wrong and you gave advice on dosage that's reckless and dangerous. Others tried to talk to you about it and you put them down by telling them they don't know anything because they're on the Internet and not a Pro.

Personally, I can tell you if I hadn't run AAS for 12 years or if I wasn't really motivated to learn more every single day... I wouldn't be on these forums. I'm not an expert. But I consider myself to have an above average knowledge on AAS as well as knowledgable on the human body. You coming in here and categorizing these guys and myself like you did is nonsense.

Just be respectful brother. It's a discussion... I've been told I was wrong plenty of times.

Good luck brother and thanks for good discussion!

Classy response. I applaud your tone and maturity.
 
Get Shredded!
"However, upon levels of injected steroid falling below what would be commensurate with 100 mg/week use, very low dose HCG such as 100-125 IU every other day is acceptable as a part of PCT."


-- taken from our good friends at AMA. :winkfinger:


I'm aware HCG has been blacklisted from our PCT world but what AMA is saying makes sense to me but i'm also not a genius, ha! Should we leave out the HCG until AAS levels fall and at very small doses, introduce HCG on an ED or EOD basis?


Discuss

:coffee:

Not gonna argue on HCG in PCT since I am sick of it, here is how I rec HCG ran to help PCT:

last 4-5 weeks of cycle leading up to pct (stopping a couple days before PCT for eg.) BUT NOT INTO PCT; 500iu 2X a week of HCG.
 
The evidence is not even debatable clinically, HCG keeps natty production going. Opinions can't change this fact. Each person can do what they want to do. What was fact five years ago can be changed by scientific evidence today, things change, get better and are proven or disproven with time. HCG is proven.

the red:
yes natty TESTOSTERONE production,... but there are MORE THAN ONE CHAIN REACTION THAT CAUSES NORMAL TESTOSTERONE OUT PUT AND FUNCTION< HCG ONLY COVERS ( FAKES) PART OF THIS! WHILE IT HURTS OTHER FACTORS!
HCG during PCT is not the best idea! believe what you want...

You are missing something, please dont be stubborn so mucht at you miss the other reasoning. its not as simple as : HCG stimulates testosterone therefor it means its recovering all actions that are related... not that simple imo..
 
Hcg signals your nuts to start producing test. So yes hcg should be used in pct. not during your cycle. And a 5,000 iu vial should only last you two days.

you are SOOO off I am not even wasting my breath other then saying that...
 
the red:
yes natty TESTOSTERONE production,... but there are MORE THAN ONE CHAIN REACTION THAT CAUSES NORMAL TESTOSTERONE OUT PUT AND FUNCTION< HCG ONLY COVERS ( FAKES) PART OF THIS! WHILE IT HURTS OTHER FACTORS!
HCG during PCT is not the best idea! believe what you want...

You are missing something, please dont be stubborn so mucht at you miss the other reasoning. its not as simple as : HCG stimulates testosterone therefor it means its recovering all actions that are related... not that simple imo..

I don't know that it hurts other factors. Test is the primary culprit in shutting down test production. It shuts down the HPG axis which is ultimately responsible for producing LH and FSH (stimulator of the gonads to produce test). HCG will not restart this HPG relationship. It seems like it would help with a transition to natty production.

I can not speak to PCT use of HCG as I am on TRT and therefore am never on PCT. I know there are many, many opinions on this topic and I do not pretend to be an expert. I do know there are many, many highly skilled pros that recommend HCG. Heck, even my own Doc wanted me to rotate between Test C and HCG (I did not agree and will not agree).

I hope I am not coming across as being too stubborn. That was not my intention.
 
Back
Top